Jump to content
Fred

Spells that need clarification, or improvement

Recommended Posts

Hello,

 

as there is an upcoming book of magic on the way, this might be a good opportunity to mention if any of the spells in the core rules are too unclear or too unspecified in your opinion. This could, potentially, be clarified in the new book with all the spells, hopefully.
If the rules are clear enough (not only through guesswork of implication) players can inform each other here. Even if you now understand the spells through player discussions in forums, due to experience of older editions, please note that it could be useful to new players to have clarification.

While it is always possible to wing it, clarity without too long-winded explanation can avoid at the table discussion, or worse, winging it and discovering as a GM you made it too powerful, and is forced to tone it down. Sometimes vagueness might even be better - imagination of the GM can make for some things. Too elaborate rules that would be rarely used is one example. For example, off topic, to me, the disease rules were too elaborate and diseases seem pretty harmless as well as most players in practice will have a fairly good CON score, rendering spells against them a bit pointless.
Also, feel free to imply why it may be better not to clarify but keep it short and sweet, and always keep in mind if you are more experienced and “know more than the text”.

Also, if someone has a suggestion to improve a spell (so it is better balanced or more interesting without changing cast cost etc), you might want to make that suggestion also (short and sweet).

And if someone wants to sum things up, they are welcome to do it in a new thread at some point.
Apologies if this has been done before - I just thought having it all in one place could be useful.

Also, any spell or caster rules that needs clarification.

Please try to limit discussion to avoid too long exchanges.

If possible, use bold to headline with page number, for the easiest overview.

For example:

 

Create Shadow p. 325

The shadow has a movement speed of 12. Does it require full concentration to move a shadow? If so, what would that mean for the caster? Could he attack?

Create Great Market p. 324
Does the spell count as a Create Market? If not, can the caster also cast (do ritual) a Create Market at the same time at this day long procedure? (I guess not) Or does the High Priest require others to do that? (this entry contains suggestions, I suppose) It might be more fun for a player High Priest to be able to do both?

Draw Beast p. 327

Does the entry “The animal can resist the initial attack” mean it can use dodge? Does this spell mean the animal won’t attack the caster? When (how close) does it stop approaching?

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Fred

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

How do you layer the different layers of defensive magic, so that earlier-cast spells don't resist the later-cast spells?

Please consider/update the [Weapon] Trance spells; Arrow Trance has a very rich description, Axe/Sword are flavorless in comparison, and (by implication) seem to have no actual "trance" effect!  When/how/why does the spell end (other than normal expiry)?  Are there other [Weapon] Trances?

Given the unified skills mechanics (where combat is just another skill-roll), are there non-combat Trance spells?  Does Gustbran offer Redsmith Trance, does Barntar offer Plow Trance, does Mahome offer Cooking Trance, does Ernalda offer Weaving Trance... etc, etc, etc?

Extension???  I'm OK with the "trance" being the worst enemy of [Weapon] Trance'd warriors, but... apparently they aren't Extensible?  What are the limits to Extension?  Which spells can and cannot be Extended?

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Discorporation, p. 326

How fast does the spirit form move? Even if this is mentioned elsewhere in the rules, this would be useful to know here so one doesn’t have to search for it.

Edited by Fred

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think it’s really bad that while you get POW vs. POW for most offensive spells (by general rules text), most but not all also state it in the spell description. This gave me the impression - for months! - that spells like Lie, Peace and Slow didn’t get resistance rolls, because it didn’t say so the way it did for other spells.

Edited by Akhôrahil
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Sanctify [ p.338 of RQG] needs its duration redefined:   If I take the book literally it has the default duration of 15 minutes. [RQG p.317, Characteristics of Rune spells.]  Sanctify is supposed to be used to allow performance of ceremonies "such as replenishing rune points" when away from a temple. 

Note that Sanctify is "ritual' but all that means is that it must be used during a ritual, presumably at least the 30-minute minimum for ritual preparation; but that says how much time it takes to cast the spell, not how long it lasts.

The Problem: replenishing Rune points takes an all-day Worship [according to RQG p.184, the Worship (Deity) skill] and this can be modified by Meditation and ritual preparation [p.182, p.244-246] . 

Because the spell is rolled for at the completion of the ritual, it seems to me that the sequence of use would be meditation and ritual to augment the Sanctify, then cast Sanctify, then worship skill roll (perhaps augmented by a sacrifice), then the die roll for rune points gained. 

Worship is defined to take one whole day.    But if Sanctify times out at the 15 minute mark while the worship has barely gotten going then how are initiates supposed to replenish Rune points under Sanctify?

Either

A. Sanctify needs to be defined with a longer duration in order to be functional.   Perhaps one day.   Perhaps its duration should be defined as "long enough to accomplish the religious business at hand".   

Or

B. The required Worship time needs to be cut to 15 minutes or less.

 

Edited by Squaredeal Sten
spelling

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 hours ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

Sanctify [ p.338 of RQG] needs its duration redefined:   If I take the book literally it has the default duration of 15 minutes. [RQG p.317, Characteristics of Rune spells.]  Sanctify is supposed to be used to allow performance of ceremonies "such as replenishing rune points" when away from a temple.

It isn't a Temporal spell. The area is now sanctified, like a wound being healed.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Flight p. 329

Am I wrong in believing this spell seems unbelievably powerful as an attack spell if the POW is overcome? Lifting a man-sized Rune Priest just straight up round after round. Then at some point let go? Or do you have to let go after 15 min only to drop them? Also, does forcing another creature to fly require full concentration (I assume it doesn’t as there is a cool image of a guy with a sword,)? Perhaps it should require a successful POW each round (as a creature lifting someone into the air a hundred meters up would also be able to fight)? I definitely think you should be able to fight flying so maybe a POW vs POW every turn against an unwilling creature?

Edited by Fred

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Identify Scent p.331

Will the target gain this skill permanently after one use of this spell and can improve it or can they improve the skill only when using the spell? Also, if you have a scent skill permanently, won’t you then be able to identify scents, thus rendering the spell not useful soon?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
43 minutes ago, Fred said:

Lifting a man-sized Rune Priest just straight up round after round. Then at some point let go? Or do you have to let go after 15 min only to drop them? Also, does forcing another creature to fly require full concentration (I assume it doesn’t as there is a cool image of a guy with a sword,)? Perhaps it should require a successful POW each round (as a creature lifting someone into the air a hundred meters up would also be able to fight)? I definitely think you should be able to fight flying so maybe a POW vs POW every turn against an unwilling creature?

Well, I did have such happen in one of my games.  Harmast had the Flight spell and used it to lift an opposing figure into the air, then "carried" them over the hillside so that there was a substantial drop.  The spell without Extension only lasts 15 minutes, so if the spell ends while the foe was still in the air, they would suffer Falling Damage of whatever distance.  Spells only require one POW vs POW roll - it succeeds, or not.  If you've overcome their magical resistance, you are in control and can fly them where you want.  They could try tactics against you (Dispel Magic, Befuddle, etc.), but they are still in the air.  I do believe it requires full concentration in this case.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Fred said:

Flight p. 329

Am I wrong in believing this spell seems unbelievably powerful as an attack spell if the POW is overcome? Lifting a man-sized Rune Priest just straight up round after round. Then at some point let go? Or do you have to let go after 15 min only to drop them? Also, does forcing another creature to fly require full concentration (I assume it doesn’t as there is a cool image of a guy with a sword,)? Perhaps it should require a successful POW each round (as a creature lifting someone into the air a hundred meters up would also be able to fight)? I definitely think you should be able to fight flying so maybe a POW vs POW every turn against an unwilling creature?

Given that there’s a spell that will outright kill on a successful casting, this isn’t utterly overwhelming in itself. But it still seems a bit silly, and it would probably be better if it simply granted flight movement.

It also raises the question of just how much multitasking can be done. Can you fly several people at once? Can you do it in complex ways?

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

General thoughts:

Do people visibly see or hear Rune Magic, Spirit Magic or Sorcery when it is being cast? What’s different visually and how loud does one need to speak? Are there effects as a spell is weaved? Ideas around this could be included, optional rules if you like, but I feel this element is missing. Differences between the types of magic. A role-playing game is much better when it is visualized with audio, that hints at something exciting about the world, rather than “you cast a spell and this is the effect”.

I can imagine runes glowing or swirling or shimmering in the air, or even briefly glowing on the body of a caster, for Rune Magic.

If there is an audible sound, through invoked words or effects as the spell is weaved, does certain cults, or Rune Priests, do silent magic? Or is there a spell that can make it silent or without effect that can be cast at the same time, like Extension? Does it also remove the need for hand movements? Casting without someone noticing is a tremendous advantage.

Is there a difference between the visual effects of some cults and others? Or just between spells. I would avoid making too much detail around this, but ideas around the topic could be included. How could the weaving of the runes/spells of Red Goddess differ from Orlanth or Ernalda? What about ideas of Chaos magic? Is it recognizable?

Do people in general know they  have been the target of a spell attempt, or spell effect? Is there a difference between the types of magics here? 


These things could be touched on in a more extensive work about magic, like the upcoming book. If handled well, it has the potential to give more flavour to the world, and pronounce the myth.

Edited by Fred
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think Spirit Binding needs some attention. It's not clear to me when you're able to cast the spell, if you need to defeat the spirit first, if you need to overcome the spirit's POW, if you need to be controlling the spirit, etc.

The functions of Control (Entity) and Command Cult Spirit in conjunction with this, I think, could use some additional explanation.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
23 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

It isn't a Temporal spell. The area is now sanctified, like a wound being healed.

Nope. "Temporal" is not even a category for Rune magic in the RGQ rules, it's just one of two duration categories: 2 minutes for spirit magic (p.256) as opposed to "instant".  The next sentence addresses permanent effects but the examples are spirit spells producing wounds or arson, and Repair.   . 

And p.317 says the default for rune magic is 15 minutes.

Edited by Squaredeal Sten
differentiating spirt and rune magic

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 General

Is there a magical indicator someone is under the influence of a spell like Arouse Passion or Fanatacism? Or is deduction required?

P.S. Any brief opinion around that? How do you handle it as a GM? Thinking of the problem of knowing when to cast Inviolable, for example, so the spell is useful in practice.

Invisibility p. 333

There is a focus on ‘enemy’ in the description. Does that mean friends see you?

Also, it is stackable. Does this mean such spells are either boosting the time it lasts or that it can be cast on an additional target? When there is no hint in the description, such things are unclear. Perhaps a general note about this if nothing is stated in the description.

Edited by Fred

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, Fred said:

General thoughts:

Do people visibly see or hear Rune Magic, Spirit Magic or Sorcery when it is being cast? What’s different visually and how loud does one need to speak? Are there effects as a spell is weaved? Ideas around this could be included, optional rules if you like, but I feel this element is missing. Differences between the types of magic. A role-playing game is much better when it is visualized with audio, that hints at something exciting about the world, rather than “you cast a spell and this is the effect”.

I can imagine runes glowing or swirling or shimmering in the air, or even briefly glowing on the body of a caster, for Rune Magic.

...If handled well, it has the potential to give more flavour to the world, and pronounce the myth.

Some but not all of your questions are addressed in the RQG rules.  Good point though.  There should be a more prominent and clearer invitation to dramatic description  to encourage high quality games.  Perhaps in a future edition of the GM package?

For Rune spells:

p.315 "it is not an invisible act!  the caster always exhibits some form of manifestation of the magical powers at their disposal.  The caster might appear to grow larger...burn with an inner glow, crackle lighting from their fingertips, or even start to physically resemble the image of the deity."

That seem to me to suggest that the GM is invited to improvise and invent the visual effects if the player doesn't.

And some spell descriptions (but definitely not all) give visual or audible effects, for instance Warding p.347 is invisible but when an enemy tries to cross "a loud noise (a keening, whistling, booming etc.) begins".  Or Catseye (p.322) "Eyes under this spell reflect light like a cat's."   Others like Summons of Evil require unusual prep;:"it requires an effigy of an enemy." (p.345).

It seems to me that the visual effects for some spells will depend on the deity powering them.  If you cast Command Cult Spirit powered by Orlanth you may begin to look like Orlanth, turn blue?  But if you do the same spell powered by Malia your effect should look very different, I'm not sure what but it should be suggestively gross.   But including detail of this kind for all cults would make the spell description list very long.  Better to encourage the GM and players to improvise.

 

 

Edited by Squaredeal Sten
audible

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

Nope. "Temporal" is not even a category for Rune magic in the RGQ rules, it's just one of two duration categories: 2 minutes for spirit magic (p.256) as opposed to "instant".  The next sentence addresses permanent effects but the examples are spirit spells producing wounds or arson, and Repair.   . 

image.png.7513993e103db416862a3465d0471204.png

Those are all rune spells. Maybe I'm wrong, that "Temporal" was simply omitted in this instance. Lets see if we get an answer.

Edited by PhilHibbs
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

Some but not all of your questions are addressed in the RQG rules.  Good point though.  There should be a more prominent and clearer invitation to dramatic description  to encourage high quality games.  Perhaps in a future edition of the GM package?

Thanks for your contribution to the discussion and good points overall (I agree they can't detail everything), and I am glad you agree this dramatic description could be more pronounced, especially of hinting the exciting differences of the magic systems.

Like, do shimmering runes appear in the air by the caster briefly as a Rune Spell is triggered? 

Edited by Fred

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Peace p. 336

The spell as written is very powerful and can probably be easily abused. Send the spellcaster to the Smoking Ruins (I don’t know the specifics of the adventure but...), cast it with Extension. The rest of the group rides in while all the opponents is holding hands with their weapons on the ground, “dancing and singing in love, sort of, heads in clouds”. Grab what you need and possibly surprise attack opponents. Perhaps the spell should affect anyone entering the area also? And, perhaps it should be implied that they could be woken from their trancelike state if suspicious behaviour is observed even if it is not directly hostile (roll under POW% each turn it is observed or similar). And that alerted creatures can wake others.
Also, does it really affect all creatures, all undead etc?

 

Edited by Fred

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@Fred A reasonable interpretation would be that anybody entering the Peace spell area later are also affected.  So most problems are resolved.

Still, would be an interesting spell for a Thanatari to have, er, "acquired".  Then send in some mindless undead.

Edited by Rodney Dangerduck
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

@Fred A reasonable interpretation would be that anybody entering the Peace spell area later are also affected.  So most problems are resolved.

Still, would be an interesting spell for a Thanatari to have, er, "acquired".  Then send in some mindless undead.

I agree, that may be the only way to play it, but I do not think this is how it is written. I suggest a change of phrasing to avoid having to think about things.. Even if this is the case, it is very powerful for a Rune Master who may have 10-15 Rune Points in their arsenal. I suggest some awareness in the ones affected by the spell should be possible under some circumstances (weapons drawn, suspicious behaviour etc), as I mentioned, and that there is a chance that they can be woken by another Rune Master (okay, perhaps Dispel Magic is necessary here), and powerful creature exceptions here (walking past a giant as Rune Master to take his treasure or quest item defeats the purpose of adventure)... Also.. what creatures are not affected, peace seem to require intelligence etc.. does size matter... too many questions for a smooth game (too much freedom is not good, slows things down). I still think the spell should be powerful, though.


Shield p. 339

The last sentence is very hard to understand.

 

 

Edited by Fred

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites


Overall, I like the magic system and spell selections so far. Very inspiring mostly.
 

Summons of Evil. p. 345

I have to admit, I didn’t quite grasp this spell..
 

Edited by Fred

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 hours ago, Fred said:


 

Summons of Evil. p. 345

I have to admit, I didn’t quite grasp this spell..
 

As I understand it, Summons of Evil is for use when Heroquesting.  if the quest requires overcoming an enemy,  this delivers an enemy.  You can't choose an enemy by name and just teleport him in and bushwhack him, as I understand it.  You may or may not get the type of enemy you really wanted -  you may get a successful Heroquest or an epic failure. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

As I understand it, Summons of Evil is for use when Heroquesting.  if the quest requires overcoming an enemy,  this delivers an enemy.  You can't choose an enemy by name and just teleport him in and bushwhack him, as I understand it.  You may or may not get the type of enemy you really wanted -  you may get a successful Heroquest or an epic failure. 

Yeah, I (kind of) got the general gist of that. Perhaps there is a chance I understand more when rules concerning heroquesting is released.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Idea stolen from Akhôrahil:

Parry spirit magic also adds a HP to the object per point. This keeps Bladesharp from overshadowing it completely.
 

Sounds like a solid idea. Unless the focus is on making aggressiveness overshadow defence for combat flow/length reasons.

 

Edited by Fred
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...