So whats up with the Cults of Orlanth and Ernalda?

[Jeff]

Just now, DreadDomain said:

Yeah, well, both Orlanth and Ernalda are packed with magic and then access more magic from associated cults. There is not much doubt in my mind that they are the most powerful cults in RQG. Maybe GoG will offer a different balance but so far, it's a no contest.

Yelm is also VERY powerful. Sunspear, Fire Elementals, Shield, Surehot, plus with Yelm Imperator you get Resurrect! Plus so many associated cults - Heal Body, Clear Sight, Fear, and you can even become a Red Goddess initiate! And if I was on the waters, Magasta is terrifying. These are the Greater Gods of Glorantha, so of course they are the most powerful and useful cults. Orlanth and Ernalda are worshiped from the Zola Fel valley to the borders of Loskalm. Yelm is the ruling god for most of Peloria, as well as Pent, Teshnos, parts of Fronela and Ralios,  and elsewhere.

[Jeff]

1 minute ago, Jeff said:

Yelm is also VERY powerful. Sunspear, Fire Elementals, Shield, Surehot, plus with Yelm Imperator you get Resurrect! Plus so many associated cults - Heal Body, Clear Sight, Fear, and you can even become a Red Goddess initiate! And if I was on the waters, Magasta is terrifying. These are the Greater Gods of Glorantha, so of course they are the most powerful and useful cults. Orlanth and Ernalda are worshiped from the Zola Fel valley to the borders of Loskalm. Yelm is the ruling god for most of Peloria, as well as Pent, Teshnos, parts of Fronela and Ralios,  and elsewhere.

And the Red Goddess - not only are her initiates already ILLUMINATED Rune Masters in another cult, but she has her own special magic system. And has so many associates with everything from Chaos Feature to Shield to Glowspot to Terrify Horse (another stunningly useful spell against people riding horses).

[Jeff]

But if all I want to do is be Death Destroyer of Worlds, then of course I'd go for Humakt. Or maybe Babeester Gor. If what I really want is a collection of tricks, I'd go with Eurmal (a stunningly useful cult when you are in a jam you can't fight your way out of) or Donandar (Harmonize, Group Dance and Illusions, oh my!). Or if I want to use the Darkness to my advantage, there's always Argan Argar.  Dark Walk, Create Shadow, and Darkness Elementals, not to mention that nasty surprise of Suppress Lodril. Every cult has its use. Not every cult is equally useful.

[DreadDomain]

19 hours ago, Jeff said:

Yelm is also VERY powerful...

Good point, I should probably have another look at him (I was never much of a Yelm guy). I'll wait for the Gods book for the Red Goddess. You mention greater gods, wouldn't Kyger Litor also be one of them? Again, need to have a second look at her. I don't recall her being so terrifying. 

[Rodney Dangerduck]

Having played a year (both real time and game time) as a Vingan, I gotta say, Orlanth and Ernalda are wicked good.  They have fun rune magic, (just never engage a Humakti in anything resembling a fair melee), and you can just blast away using your Rune Points because they are so fast and easy to recover.  Weekly minor days, associated cults holy days, plus your own cult holy days.  Obviously, it depends upon your game's pace of play how significant this will be.

Humakti are severely disadvantaged in comparison.  Very limited recovery.

Storm Bull is intermediate - fewer holy days, but at least they have some Associate Cults.

[GAZZA]

22 minutes ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

Having played a year (both real time and game time) as a Vingan, I gotta say, Orlanth and Ernalda are wicked good.  They have fun rune magic, (just never engage a Humakti in anything resembling a fair melee), and you can just blast away using your Rune Points because they are so fast and easy to recover.  Weekly minor days, associated cults holy days, plus your own cult holy days.  Obviously, it depends upon your game's pace of play how significant this will be.

Humakti are severely disadvantaged in comparison.  Very limited recovery.

Storm Bull is intermediate - fewer holy days, but at least they have some Associate Cults.

Yeah I have to admit it beggars belief to me that someone could look at the Orlanth Rune magic and conclude that they were weak. Quantity alone seems to disprove that, and outside of a shamanistic cult they get great spirit magic too (especially when you realise they can get it from their associated cults as well).

Ernalda isn't so much a weak cult as it is less combat focused, but it's a great support cult (a lot of decent healing magic that doesn't need any CA type restrictions to join).

[jajagappa]

10 hours ago, GAZZA said:

it's a great support cult

I think we could easily flip the context here as "support" presumes it is "supporting" combat. 

Why not: it's a great leader's cult? 

[Akhôrahil]

13 hours ago, GAZZA said:

Ernalda isn't so much a weak cult as it is less combat focused, but it's a great support cult (a lot of decent healing magic that doesn't need any CA type restrictions to join).

Ernalda with all associated cults and the full set of husband-protectors has a ridiculous amount of spells! Perhaps the only god who has both Cloud Call and Cloud Clear, for one thing! 

[French Desperate WindChild]

On 7/2/2020 at 11:10 AM, Jeff said:

Not a lot of room for magic in Orlanth? Geez.

Excuse me, I wasn't enough clear.

 

Agreed heis very powerful.

That's what you describe : Orlanth provides very nice magical fighters (thunder, etc..)

but if you organize a sword duel between a junior humakti Sword and a junior Wind lord (90% in skills) with full magic but there is a rull they can only use magic for closed combat, I would bet on the humakti.

Of course if the duellists can do what they want, it depends on the smarter guy

I m just saying that a player who wants to create a warrior * would probably choose another god if raising his weapon effectiveness is the main goal.

 

* (I m not sure of warrior definition then, I mean a person who use sword/ axe / maul / ... to kill others)

[Austin]

On 7/6/2020 at 11:05 AM, Akhôrahil said:

Perhaps the only god who has both Cloud Call and Cloud Clear, for one thing!

Um. Orlanth Thunderous?

But yeah, Ernalda's spell list is awesome. I'm mildly disappointed I didn't end up with a player choosing her. I think there's a tendency for some gamers to overlook her in favor of Chalana Arroy because of a "this is a game" attitude. When you look at the two, I think it's easy for a player to go "well, if I wanna be a healer I want to be Chalana Arroy because she's the best healer," especially newer players who haven't gotten a feel for how important/useful Ernalda is when you're immersed in the setting.

[Akhôrahil]

1 minute ago, Crel said:

Um. Orlanth Thunderous?

He does? Missed that! That makes him more farmer-friendly, certainly.

1 minute ago, Crel said:

Chalana Arroy because she's the best healer

She is the best healer, without doubt. But Ernalda is a solid healer who can then do a thousand other things besides.

Edited July 8, 2020 by Akhôrahil

[Jeff]

3 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

Excuse me, I wasn't enough clear.

 

Agreed heis very powerful.

That's what you describe : Orlanth provides very nice magical fighters (thunder, etc..)

but if you organize a sword duel between a junior humakti Sword and a junior Wind lord (90% in skills) with full magic but there is a rull they can only use magic for closed combat, I would bet on the humakti.

Of course if the duellists can do what they want, it depends on the smarter guy

I m just saying that a player who wants to create a warrior * would probably choose another god if raising his weapon effectiveness is the main goal.

 

* (I m not sure of warrior definition then, I mean a person who use sword/ axe / maul / ... to kill others)

Yeah, but that is silly. Any cult is going to be good at what it does best. And it is not surprising that the God of Swords is the best at sword-fighting. 

[simonh]

7 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

but if you organize a sword duel between a junior humakti Sword and a junior Wind lord (90% in skills) with full magic but there is a rull they can only use magic for closed combat, I would bet on the humakti.

Why would anyone ever do that?

Quote

I m just saying that a player who wants to create a warrior * would probably choose another god if raising his weapon effectiveness is the main goal.

Warrrior isn't the same as swordsman though. In actual skirmishes and battles all sorts of things other than straight sword skill come into play. Tactical movement, supporting allies, ranged attacks, healing up to keep fighting. Humakti are expendable one trick wonders. Sure they're highly dangerous up close, so don't let them get up close. Fly! Leap! Thunderbolt! 

*Sever Spirit*

.....damnit!

[Rodney Dangerduck]

4 hours ago, Jeff said:

Yeah, but that is silly. Any cult is going to be good at what it does best. And it is not surprising that the God of Swords is the best at sword-fighting. 

Absolutely agreed.  Having fought alongside a Humakt Duck in Todd's game, and watching our own group's player, my RQG rules of engagement are

1. Don't fight a force that has more Humakti than yours (I might lump in Babs Gor as well)
2. Don't personally engage a Humakti in melee on foot, a.k.a. "Never go in against a Humakti when death is on the line". 

[Lordabdul]

11 hours ago, Crel said:

But yeah, Ernalda's spell list is awesome. I'm mildly disappointed I didn't end up with a player choosing her. I think there's a tendency for some gamers to overlook her in favor of Chalana Arroy because of a "this is a game" attitude. When you look at the two, I think it's easy for a player to go "well, if I wanna be a healer I want to be Chalana Arroy because she's the best healer," especially newer players who haven't gotten a feel for how important/useful Ernalda is when you're immersed in the setting.

I think it really depends on how the GM presented the cults and the world to the player. A GM might say: "Humakt is for warriors, Chalana Arroy is for healers, Lankhor Mhy is for intellectuals and researchers, and... errr... Orlanth is kinda for farmers who can fight a bit and most everyday guys, and Ernalda is for everyday ladies, they can, err, bless crops and heal a bit. But hey those are super important because your clan leaders are all Orlanth and Ernalda initiates!"... this won't impress many players, and they will go with the cults that have a clearer gameplay role. This is especially true of the players who more-or-less equate cults with character classes.

Depending on the player, it might be more effective to present cults based on their position in society (for instance Ernalda priestesses are more like politicians and leaders than "healers" IMHO), or based on how much magic and skills they get (including how common their temples and holy days are), etc.

[Austin]

24 minutes ago, lordabdul said:

I think it really depends on how the GM presented the cults and the world to the player. A GM might say: "Humakt is for warriors, Chalana Arroy is for healers, Lankhor Mhy is for intellectuals and researchers, and... errr... Orlanth is kinda for farmers who can fight a bit and most everyday guys, and Ernalda is for everyday ladies, they can, err, bless crops and heal a bit.

In particular, what's in my mind is players coming from The Other Game and seeing cults as similar to classes. Your summary presents that somewhat well, actually . Orlanth is cool, but depending on how he's presented it can come across as a bit all over, conceptually. He does X and Y and Z, and Humakt does the One Thing really well, and Chalana Arroy does the One Thing really well. Orlanth and Ernalda are certainly powerful cults, because they do lots of things really well, but if you're new and still feeling stuff out your core concept is probably "warrior/Fighter" rather than "storm worshiper" and Humakt looks more immediate. He appears less like a corner case, and more like a generalist, when in practice it's often the other way around--Orlanth's the generalist, and Humakt's in the Combat Corner.

(As an aside, I think some of the most fun I've had playing 5E was playing a Storm Domain cleric basically as an Orlanth Adventurous warrior . Reskinned to the game's setting, but stacking STR and clobbering people while chucking lightning is lots of fun in any game.)

[DreadDomain]

1 hour ago, lordabdul said:

errr... Orlanth is kinda for farmers who can fight a bit and most everyday guys,

I think you hit the nail on the head ". How they are presented is important.

"Humakt is the Sword God, Wielder of Death, whose worshippers are stern and fearsome fighters who live by a rigid code of honor and have for sole purpose to deliver Death to their enemies" might give better context of Humakt place in society.

"Orlanth is the Storm God, King of the Gods, worshipped by bold adventurers, warrior poets, freedom fighters and barbarian kings" sounds a bit more exciting... :)..

Edited July 8, 2020 by DreadDomain

[Lordabdul]

1 hour ago, Crel said:

In particular, what's in my mind is players coming from The Other Game and seeing cults as similar to classes.

This is what 13th Age: Glorantha is for  

[French Desperate WindChild]

12 hours ago, lordabdul said:

I think it really depends on how the GM presented the cults and the world to the player. A GM might say: "Humakt is for warriors, Chalana Arroy is for healers, Lankhor Mhy is for intellectuals and researchers, and... errr... Orlanth is kinda for farmers who can fight a bit and most everyday guys, and Ernalda is for everyday ladies, they can, err, bless crops and heal a bit. But hey those are super important because your clan leaders are all Orlanth and Ernalda initiates!"... this won't impress many players, and they will go with the cults that have a clearer gameplay role. This is especially true of the players who more-or-less equate cults with character classes.

Depending on the player, it might be more effective to present cults based on their position in society (for instance Ernalda priestesses are more like politicians and leaders than "healers" IMHO), or based on how much magic and skills they get (including how common their temples and holy days are), etc.

Voilà, merci

that is exactly my view, with graceful words !

[David Scott]

12 hours ago, DreadDomain said:

I think you hit the nail on the head ". How they are presented is important.

A question that sprang to mind when reading this - is do you let your players read the cult write-ups?

I always make sure mine can browse the full cults rather than presenting the information verbally myself. Unless I'm using pregens, they I always give them a summary to get them going.

12 hours ago, DreadDomain said:

"Humakt is the Sword God, Wielder of Death, whose worshippers are stern and fearsome fighters who live by a rigid code of honor and have for sole purpose to deliver Death to their enemies" might give better context of Humakt place in society.

Whereas I would say "Humakt is a minority Death cult, operating outside of society. No right thinking folk would worship Death. In Sartar there are about 1000 worshippers"

12 hours ago, DreadDomain said:

"Orlanth is the Storm God, King of the Gods, worshipped by bold adventurers, warrior poets, freedom fighters and barbarian kings" sounds a bit more exciting... :)..

"Orlanth and Ernalda are the most important cults to be part of. Together they define our society and how we should live. In Sartar there are about 78000 Orlanth and Ernalda worshippers"

[Lordabdul]

10 hours ago, David Scott said:

A question that sprang to mind when reading this - is do you let your players read the cult write-ups?

I did that once and it kinda backfired. I made a booklet that was a cut down list of the RQG rulebook cults write-ups (about two thirds of the list, only keeping the core Sartarite ones). The players were overwhelmed, probably because it wasn't an easy-to-parse list with clear, class-like titles. Instead you have a list of made-up deity names and you have to read a paragraph or two for each chapter to figure out exactly what's what. The 2 fairly-new-to-RPG players were quite confused. The long-time-gamers-but-they're-just-here-for-rolling-dice-and-having-fun players shrugged and asked what they should take based on what the party/adventure needs, and what's common in the setting (so they picked Orlanth and Ernalda). The one tactical-munchkin-guy read the whole thing in detail, got excited about all the possibilities, and, surprisingly, settled on a Chalana Arroy character.

Quote

Whereas I would say "Humakt is a minority Death cult, operating outside of society. No right thinking folk would worship Death. In Sartar there are about 1000 worshippers"

That's fine, but that's not what the RQG cult write-up says. Did you write your own cult write-ups better suited for player choice? This is actually a very good piece of information to add to that cult.

Quote

"Orlanth and Ernalda are the most important cults to be part of. Together they define our society and how we should live. In Sartar there are about 78000 Orlanth and Ernalda worshippers"

Again, compare that to the one-paragraph cult description in the RQG rulebook. Your short description of the cult seems a lot more attractive to me.

Edited July 9, 2020 by lordabdul

[DreadDomain]

23 hours ago, David Scott said:

A question that sprang to mind when reading this - is do you let your players read the cult write-ups?

Sure, why not? Players will engage differently with rules. Some players will want to describe a concept how let the gm create the mechanics behind it (so they probably won't bother) but some players want to delve in to the behind the scene cog in the machine (irrespective if they are power gamers or not)

Quote

Whereas I would say "Humakt is a minority Death cult, operating outside of society. No right thinking folk would worship Death. In Sartar there are about 1000 worshippers"

"Orlanth and Ernalda are the most important cults to be part of. Together they define our society and how we should live. In Sartar there are about 78000 Orlanth and Ernalda worshippers"

I dont disagree with your elevator pitch but you focus on how the cults fit in society which in my opinion, doesn't really "talk" to many players.  My elevator pitch was focused on the type of characters worshipping those gods to help a player choose a deity that fits their vision of their characters. 

RQG offers another tool to help newcomers, the descriptions of the runes. By knowing which runes you will want your character to be strong in to emulate your god, it gives a pretty good view on which personality type you might end up with. It ends up being almost a four-pronged approach when it comes to choosing the god of your character:

1 - Which types of characters worship a god (my pitch)

2 - How the cult fits in society (your pitch)

3 - What personality type a god will influence on a character (the runes)

4 - What skills and magic will a character have access to (the rules)

For some, I suspect, number 4 might come first when it comes to choosing.

Edited July 10, 2020 by DreadDomain