Manirian Scratchpad II: The Pralori Elk Hsunchen

[davecake]

2 hours ago, Jeff said:

Noshain’s cult was exclusively in the control of the otters who guaranteed or withdrew protection of the humans’ rafts and canoes. The playful otters did not bother to oppress with their position of superior communications, and so the peoples were peacefully knit together, plagued only by their daily lives and human jealousies.

Love it! @Jeff how big are these intelligent otters? Anything else you can tell us about them? 

2 hours ago, Jeff said:

Their favored deity was Sarboai, the River God that they loved, but they also offered great propitiatory rites to the nameless Spirit of the Marsh, a formless and fearful entity which could control the mud sharks, crocodiles, will o wisps, giant frogs, giant herons, giant whirligigs, eerie mists, dense fogs, and mysterious sounds.

Love this as well. Very gothic. 

 

[Julian Lord]

2 minutes ago, scott-martin said:

I try! But it is difficult to go against the texts we have that suggest a strong line of descent, this one reproduced over here.

https://wellofdaliath.chaosium.com/home/gloranthan-documents/glorantha-2/heler-the-great-rain/

Perhaps this is a translation error when the compiler took what we would now know as a Tolat story (possibly bringing in separate elements of Dara Happan origin) and failed to reconcile the names to what we now know.

It's not a translation error, it's a myth of Heler from a more northern and Solar/Stellar/Sky perspective, about an enemy god. It's a Dara Happan story about the Flood.

A myth of Heler from a Manirian and especially a Helering Manirian one (there are some remnants of the old Helering Tribe still living in Maniria) would look very different.

One mistake that's made all too often, I used to make the very same one myself, is that not all Rain = Heler ; but he is the dominant Rain god in the broad region around Dragon Pass, except Prax and the Wastes, which is how the Dara Happans know him.

There is no reason why the Pralori couldn't worship a rain spirit different to Heler, but of course simply because of where they live -- they would be aware of him, and their rain magic in that case would be weaker than Heler's, though it could still be quite effective simply because of how much it rains in Maniria.

[Sir_Godspeed]

6 hours ago, Julian Lord said:

One mistake that's made all too often, I used to make the very same one myself, is that not all Rain = Heler ; but he is the dominant Rain god in the broad region around Dragon Pass, except Prax and the Wastes, which is how the Dara Happans know him.

 

While I can see that (tracks with how there are different wind gods for different climates, and different earth gods for different regions, for example), what's the evidence/textual basis for this conclusion?

[Nevermet]

If I don't reply to the Heler stuff immediately, it's not that I'm apathetic, but there's a lot to process there.

[Nevermet]

Oh, there's so much here...

18 hours ago, Jeff said:

Pralor is written up in the Cults Book as an exemple Hsunchen cult (along with Basmol, Mralota, Telmor, and Rathor). I have a LOT of material on Pralorela. Here's the Third Age history of the area:

 

Questions about the early 3rd Age

• The Vankthi Ogre Kingdom.I love the idea of an ogre kingdom which was quickly smashed.  It feels like a campaign that was run by someone that made it into the actual history, in the best possible ways.   I can imagine the ogres of Maniria "dream of Vankthi," meaning they dream of recreating a polity where they dominate as the rulers.
• Hermat
  •  I continue to be fascinated at the idea of a Hsunchen city.  The fact the Pralori remain Hsunchen despite a lot of rather uncommon characteristics for Hsunchen is something I'm having fun with.
• The Noshain River
  •  I love the otters.  Are the humans the Aulorings, or do the Auloring eventually meet with these people after fleeing ruined Gualal?
• The Spirit of the Marsh
  •  For no real good reason, I really hope this isn't a chaotic entity.  I love it though
• Highwater
  • This fills in a lot of history of Highwater, and its association with river cults may help explain why it was saved from the Flood.
  • Also, it really changes the way I think about Highwater, as I was thinking about it as a bastion of Slontan Dronar which... does not seem accurate.
  • I also love its relationship with Handra

I will be quoting this again when I get to my inevitable Handra thread.

 

THANK YOU

Edited June 23, 2020 by Nevermet
Last line missing

[Nevermet]

12 hours ago, Eff said:

Well, this is certainly inspirational for finishing the other half of the "What my father said/what the priest told me" duo! The first half of which is here: https://eightarmsandthemask.blogspot.com/2020/01/a-personal-view-of-pralori-life-what-my.html

 

I like the distinction between evil & foolishness

 

12 hours ago, Eff said:

As such, Serpent Beasts teach a cosmological understanding that syncretizes Malkioni beliefs about the cosmos with the Earthmaker traditions common to hsunchen. 

*JAW DROP*

Love this

I feel the Malkioni influences explain somehow why the Pralori can have an urbanized form.

 

 

Really, I don't have many thoughts about your post beyond loving it and just running with it.  So, uh, thanks?

Edited June 22, 2020 by Nevermet

[Julian Lord]

3 hours ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

While I can see that (tracks with how there are different wind gods for different climates, and different earth gods for different regions, for example), what's the evidence/textual basis for this conclusion?

None AFAIK, not even in any of the old unpublished Greg material I've seen -- but it's still true.

Unless one was described in some old Teshnos material ?

A good first step IMO would be some published details about rain spirits and the rain shamans of Prax and the Wastes.

[Nevermet]

On 6/22/2020 at 5:33 AM, Eff said:

Elk/wapiti rely on open meadows and grasses for food, as they are primarily grazers and secondarily browsers, unlike their relatives deer and moose. So I think any Pralori relationship with Aldyrami would be at arms-length and quickly go downhill once the Reforestation begins. 

I keep coming back to this as one of the more striking revelations in thread thread (and I'm rather embarrassed I didn't read up on elk ecology before post, cuz... yeah).

It also got me thinking, because I realized my memory of the historical maps in the Guide were more fuzzy than I thought.  So, I checked them, and it turns out I REALLY misremembered the history of the Pralori:

(Note: if it isn't cool that I pasted 6 sections of maps from a book, obviously I will delete them)

Quote

     

         

 

So, how does this change my thinking?  Soooooo many things:

• I completely misremembered and thought that the Elk Hills south of Lake Helby were an ancestral homeland of the Pralori. 
  • However, given this map progression, it would appear that Pralorela is a post-Flood culture, as that area was a central part of Greatwood.  It makes me appreciate the amount of effort (and violence) the Middle Sea Empire must have expended to connect Ralios and Slontos.
  • I'm aware that the Pralori are a nomadic people and are therefore likely found all over this section of Genertela, but I have a different appreciation that the Elk Hills appear to have only really been their "Home" after 1250.
  • In fact, it would appear that the traditional lands of the Pralori in Maniria are Ryzel.  (see year 700).  I do not understand how this works.  Though in fairness, I don't understand the Manirian Dragonewts at all.  ...Not that I really have a handle on other newts either, I suppose.
     
• I wonder what cultural differences existed between the Pralori of Tanisor at the Dawn and the Manirian Pralori that dominated the Entruli.
   
• I'm assuming the Mralani in the NE of the map are supposed to be Harandings?
  • I'm wondering if the big difference between the Entruli and the Harandings at the Dawn is that the Harandings were Entruli that were never conquered by the Pralori.
     
• Would I be right in thinking the Pralori and the Mraloti have rarely been allies?

 

 

...am I barking up any wrong trees here?

[Nevermet]

Also, I fully appreciate the depths of time here: Even if I'm correct (which I can believe I'm not), the Pralori have occupies the Elk Hills / Pralorela for almost 400 years, which means that its their traditional homeland in very meaningful way.

Edited June 24, 2020 by Nevermet

[Jeff]

FIRST AGE

At the Dawn the Elk People, the children of Pralor, were the residents here. Their population was thin at first, but the relative ease of the Dawn Age allowed for population expansion in all directions. Clans and families migrated in all directions until they came into conflict with neighboring peoples.

The traditional foes lived to the south and were called the Entruli. These were a branch of the Mraloti, or boar-folk, who had survived the Darkness in relative strength and delivered their civilization to their cousins after the sun rose. Thus, the Entruli ruled all of the peoples to the south.

The Entruli valued their civilization highly and looked with contempt on their neighbors. They coveted the lands inland from their civilization, and were happy to combat the Elk People for it. The Pralori, in their turn, were glad to gain the wealth of civilization through plunder rather than work. Thus, the region quickly reverted to the combats and troubles off the Darkness, as if nothing had changed since the Gods War.

In the year 97, the Entruli did what the Pralori could never do. Their ruler broke an ancient taboo which angered the gods. A great flood came rushing upon the land, drowning everything in its way and destroying the land. Only the capital, Porluftha, escaped because a Kolat clung madly to the buildings and held firm as the water washed over him. The city and its ancient inhabitants were preserved in a great air bubble undersea, lost to the outside world, undiscovered for many years.

Without their traditional dynasty, the Entruli treated each other like foes. The Pralori plundered often, the Entruli destroyed each other’s strongholds, and it seemed as if a powerful Elk person would become leader here easily.

Instead, there came a leader who was related to the old Entruli dynasty. He and his tribe came from the Shadowlands, where the Only Old One ruled over a nation of trolls and subject populations. A time had come when the Only Old One offered many of his subjects their freedom if they left his lands, or else commanded them to accept his rule.

The leader was named Lalmor, and his tribe were the Vathmai. He united the Entruli, helped them rebuild their strongholds, and led them to a great victory in driving off the Pralori. He arrived in 115, was finished with his victories by 122, and died in 138.

King Lalmor’s arrival was more than simply a unification of the Entruli peoples. He brought a new religion with him, and he was also aided by many inhuman peoples. Lalmor came from Dragon Pass, where the Unity Council had been formed and where they worshiped the world-saving Lightbringers. Lalmor brought worship of Orlanth and his pantheon. With these new cults he was clearly ascendant.

When the Lightbringer missionaries left the coastal Entruli lands and moved to enlighten the Pralori they were, in general, well received. The Pralori recognized the superiority of the new gods over their own animistic spirits. It did not unify the tribe, not did it split it.

The Lightbringers faith did not ensure the unity of the Entruli. After the death of Lalmor in 122 the Entruli heirs divided his lands into several kingdoms. Some were coastal and thrived upon the increasing sea-trade borne by the ship-living Waertagi race which ruled the surface waters. Some were buffer states between the coastal cities and the inland barbarians. Others were barbarian kingdoms living in woods and plains.

The Entruli and Pralori mixed in many places, blurring their original tribes and creating peoples who did not worship the animal gods Entru or Mralota or Pralor. These nations took the names of their kingdoms, such as the Ramalians and Wenelians and Manirians. In Pralorela the people continued to be called that ancient name through the whole period.

The Pralori first contacted the cult of Nysalor when missionaries from the north brought word and gifts of their new god. Like many places in the world, Pralorela was being swept by an awful plague which devastated the people. The Nysalor missionaries could heal it, and they could also cure many other ills. The Pralori were quick to adapt to the cult, and its subsidiary gods.

The Nysalorean Pralori united under the religion, and they also chose to worship the gods who were friendly to Nysalor. Thus, the cult of Yelm gained an ascendancy among the Pralori which it had not enjoyed before. Some allies, most adventurous mercenaries, were gained from norther peoples from Ralios. The Yelmite Pralori attacked the southern kingdoms, and there began another long and terrible war. Some of the Vathmai nations also embraced Nysalor, and the Pralori claim that these southerners were the first to use the Dark Side of their god to gain their own ends. This is discounted by most scholars, but it is certain that this whole region was embroiled in an increasingly difficult and vile war. One instance is recorded of a Nysalorean army meeting a Gbaji army on the field, and in the fight everyone was killed except the priests of both cults.

Pralori armies aided Tanisor, a leading nation of Ralios, when they fought against Arkat, an enemy invader from a distant land. The Pralori army, like so many others, was crushed.

Eventually the forces of Gbaji the Deceiver gained the upper hand. Many Chaos creatures, especially the vile broos, were increasing in the land. People seeking a decent way of life were driven to a smaller and smaller region. Kaxtorplose, the sacred city of the demigod Kaxtor, was one of the last places which remained untainted by Chaos as the wars raged. Thus Ralios fell to the cleansing armies of Arkat but the Pralori and Entruli were all but devoured.

Arkat’s cleansing scourge went far and wide. He arrived in Pralorela by land and sea, in Waertagi ships carrying Seshnegi and Brithini troops, and in great columns of Lightbringer barbarians from Ralios who follow the Unbreakable Sword. They concentrated on relieving Kaxtorplose, and then on liberating the centers of coastal population. Some Pralori, huddled among the refugees of Kaxtorplose, agreed to help convert their people away from the evil god. They were aided by the remnants of the coastal population in this. Their main gods were the Lightbringers, who refused all contact with the gods of Light and of Chaos, and also the religion of Malkion in its Brithini and Seshnegi form.

The cleansing of Pralorela was never as complete as anyone wished. When Arkat slew Gbaji in 450 and ended the cosmic battle, this land was still plagued. The natives did their best, but the broos could always find refuge in the marshes, and the natives were never dominant enough to force a final solution. The region became popular for all peoples seeking Chaos to destroy, and who had the time and courage to search the treacherous marsh. Many Pralori were proud to be among those hunters over the generations, and they were also experts at marsh survival and so gained great local fame and riches.

The end of the First Age saw the region little-changed from the Dawn. The people were slightly more educated in the ways of the cosmos and new gods were worshiped. They owned some manufactured goods, plundered from the coast and handed down over the generations, but they had no great cities of their own, nor any inspired leaders to lift them from their squalor. But the people were not unhappy, and lived good lives when they were not harassed by enemies.

[Jeff]

Of course it is the Second Age where everything gets all mixed up.

[Nevermet]

1 minute ago, Jeff said:

Of course it is the Second Age where everything gets all mixed up.

This is one of those sagacious comments that can be dropped in many Glorantha discussions, I feel

 

Also, I'm not awake enough to process that other post... wow.  Glorious wall of text.

Edited June 24, 2020 by Nevermet

[metcalph]

1 hour ago, Nevermet said:

 

• I'm assuming the Mralani in the NE of the map are supposed to be Harandings?

I think its a typo for Mraloti.

One thing you might be aware of is that the Slime Deer (Dorastor: Land of Doom p63) apparently originated from Maniria.  The Sleek Deer Prince threw his lot in with Chaos during the Gbaji Wars He may be Damali or Pralori).

The Dragonewts of Ryzel were from Dragon Pass.  They were slaves of the Bright Empire and followed Palangio into battle.  

[Julian Lord]

That map series is great -- and it shows (through their territorial absence) that the Helerings spent hundreds of years just blending in. Except "Manirian Tribes" to a degree ; though few of these are purely Helering.

Harandings are not Helerings.

700 Herolal probably is.

[Nevermet]

11 hours ago, Jeff said:

In the year 97, the Entruli did what the Pralori could never do. Their ruler broke an ancient taboo which angered the gods. A great flood came rushing upon the land, drowning everything in its way and destroying the land. Only the capital, Porluftha, escaped because a Kolat clung madly to the buildings and held firm as the water washed over him. The city and its ancient inhabitants were preserved in a great air bubble undersea, lost to the outside world, undiscovered for many years.

Oh, wow... Erenplose sank after Dawn? 😲

 

1 hour ago, Julian Lord said:

That map series is great -- and it shows (through their territorial absence) that the Helerings spent hundreds of years just blending in. Except "Manirian Tribes" to a degree ; though few of these are purely Helering.

Harandings are not Helerings.

700 Herolal probably is.

Yeah, the population of Maniria circa 1600 has sooo little to do with the people who lived there at the Dawn at this point.  The flood of Prluftha (aka Herilia, Sweet City, Erenplose...), the Gbaji Wars, the Imperial Age's wars depopulating central & eastern Maniria, the Flood of Slontos.... societies keep getting squashed.  And then settlement comes in, usually from the Holy Country or the West.  At this point, I strongly suspect that, in addition to the scars the land has to its mythical landscape, the current inhabitants don't know half of what pre-Dawn powers exist on and within the land.  Perhaps that's part of why the Pralori (and the Aldryami) are so powerful: they've been around long enough to remember.  A Gazeteer of Maniria would have a lot of odd stuff with the comment of, "yeah, nobody knows WTF that is either."

 

But on the Heler issue (still afraid to get into Heler stuff seriously yet), I agree that Helering heritage is just part of the mix now for the Manirians: Some have it, many don't.  I'm also tempted to say that after Heler honoured Orlanth at Storm Mountain, the Helerings were absorbed into the Entrulings.  Entru, the Son of Orlanth who forges a people out of refugees, former Mraloti, and Helerings... it has a ring to me.

[Nevermet]

10 hours ago, metcalph said:

I think its a typo for Mraloti.

One thing you might be aware of is that the Slime Deer (Dorastor: Land of Doom p63) apparently originated from Maniria.  The Sleek Deer Prince threw his lot in with Chaos during the Gbaji Wars He may be Damali or Pralori).

The Dragonewts of Ryzel were from Dragon Pass.  They were slaves of the Bright Empire and followed Palangio into battle.  

I knew that about Ryzel, but I did not know that about Slime Deer.  Thanks!

[scott-martin]

34 minutes ago, Nevermet said:

Oh, wow... Erenplose sank after Dawn? 😲

 

Shhh.

35 minutes ago, Nevermet said:

A Gazeteer of Maniria would have a lot of odd stuff with the comment of, "yeah, nobody knows WTF that is either."

Separately I really like how the historical map snapshots associate the Road with specific political developments on the western end, collapse of Jorstland etc.

[Nevermet]

6 minutes ago, scott-martin said:

Shhh

🤣

[Nevermet]

10 minutes ago, scott-martin said:

Separately I really like how the historical map snapshots associate the Road with specific political developments on the western end, collapse of Jorstland etc.

I'm a big fan of how much you cannot treat Maniria as a self-contained bubble, where the core changes are all endogenous.

Edited June 24, 2020 by Nevermet

[Sir_Godspeed]

2 hours ago, Nevermet said:

I'm a big fan of how much you cannot treat Maniria as a self-contained bubble, where the core changes are all endogenous.

Somewhat like Dragon Pass, Maniria comes off as a liminal region, most noteworthy for its role as a connector. And from there comes the triumphs and disasters therein.

[Julian Lord]

5 hours ago, Nevermet said:

I'm also tempted to say that after Heler honoured Orlanth at Storm Mountain, the Helerings were absorbed into the Entrulings.  Entru, the Son of Orlanth who forges a people out of refugees, former Mraloti, and Helerings... it has a ring to me.

I don't think so -- but I think in Third Age Glorantha they're mainly a certain number of clans within the Manirian tribes.

They are shapechangers to an extent, like their god is, so that they can adapt to resemble another people that they choose to join -- so you're not completely off, but they still have a very ancient tradition that is theirs and nobody else's.

[Nevermet]

8 minutes ago, Julian Lord said:

They are shapechangers to an extent, like their god is, so that they can adapt to resemble another people that they choose to join -- so you're not completely off, but they still have a very ancient tradition that is theirs and nobody else's.

There's a lot intriguing in that short post!

If I want t read up on Helerings, where would I go? 

[Julian Lord]

20 hours ago, Nevermet said:

There's a lot intriguing in that short post!

If I want t read up on Helerings, where would I go? 

There's pretty much exactly nothing written.

[Nevermet]

2 hours ago, Julian Lord said:

There's pretty much exactly nothing written.

Ah.

 

.... I am having horrible ideas now. 😇

[Nevermet]

2 hours ago, Julian Lord said:

There's pretty much exactly nothing written.

More seriously, could you talk about their shapechanging?