Brainstorming spaceship design

[Atgxtg]

Continued from previous post (I hit the 10K limit again!!!):eek:

I guess we can call it the atgxtg barrier.

Is it worth summarising them for those of us who don't have them?

Yeah, I think so.

I got a lot of fre stuff from Drivethrurpg, but haven't gone through them yet, some of them may have ship design rules.

[Atgxtg]

I still think that ignores too many potential border conditions; as I said, mecha interact with spacecraft all the time in the genres they're used in, and with small spacecraft simple issues of whether that large alien animal can grab the fighter craft when it enters atmosphere can come up. If you don't have any comparison value between human scale size and craft size, you're entirely on your own.

Yeah. THat's why I'm gonna work up a sclae. It's either that or just deal with big number on the ships. Something like x10 or x20 could work, if we design it right.

If I knew the SIZ chart and sample vehilce Hit points from BRP I think I can work out a scale. I'll flip through CoC and see if I can reverse engineer it.

Ideally I'd like to come up with something like x10, x20 or such. So a CON 12, SIZ 12 spaceship with 2 AP and 12 hit points might translate to SIZ 240 with 40 AP and 240 hit points.

Plus smaller numbers and scaling help to keep the category modifers from domination the ship skills.

[The Tweaker]

STARSHIPS-Is the Starship design book for Decipher's Star Trek RPG. Since the RPG focuses on character scale rather than spaceships it has a few things that would make it useful for our nefarious purposes

If anybody really wants to have a look at the rules without buying the book, there is a fan-created reference document for Decipher's Coda system (the ruleset used for their Star Trek and Lord of the Rings books). It includes all the main rules from both lines in a setting-neutral format, but also expands on some of them: the starship design & combat rules are extrapolated to include all kinds of vehicles (tanks, boats, etc.), for instance. You will also find complete rules for rolling up star systems and alien races & societies - taken from the Worlds supplement for Star Trek -, which makes it a very useful (and free!) resource for any sci-fi game. You can download it here.

[Atgxtg]

Well, I've been looking over the SIZ chart from CoC 5th edition. Interestingly enough at SIZ 300 and beyond the relationship between SIZ and mass is that SIZ=1/10 mass in tons.

They also messed up the metric ton portion (the masses should be twice the values given).

So that makes scaling spaceships pretty easy, since anything over 3300 tons/3225mt would convert at a 10-1 rating, giving us a nice linear formula to use.

So we can use a x10, x100, or even x1000+ scale from ships to characters. Doesn't get much easier than that.

If we go with the 989,000 mt mass for a Constituion-class (Star Trek TOS) Starship, that comes out to SIZ 101,185 (we could probably just round to 100,000 for our purposes). If we got with a 1,000 to 1 scale, then a Constitution-class starship would be SIZ 100, just where soltakss puts a Heavy Crusier!

With a Galaxy-class Starship from Star Trek TNG having a mass of 4.5 million metric tons, for SIZ 460,395 (we could round to 460,000), even 1000 to 1 would give us SIZ 460!

So at this scale, interaction with characters, unless we are talking Superman level, and that the "wimpy" post crisis one.), would be limited to said characters cutting holes through the hull and so forth.

Smaller ships would be the only ones worth having a direct coversion for, at least according to the CoC scale.

[soltakss]

Well, I've been looking over the SIZ chart from CoC 5th edition. Interestingly enough at SIZ 300 and beyond the relationship between SIZ and mass is that SIZ=1/10 mass in tons.

They also messed up the metric ton portion (the masses should be twice the values given).

So that makes scaling spaceships pretty easy, since anything over 3300 tons/3225mt would convert at a 10-1 rating, giving us a nice linear formula to use.

So we can use a x10, x100, or even x1000+ scale from ships to characters. Doesn't get much easier than that.

True.

Once you have decided on a scale or framework, then it is easy to slot different types of ship in. You just have to decide where a particular ship fits into the scheme of things. If you have a set of relative values for each SciFi Setting, you can slot other ships in according to their relative ranks.

If we go with the 989,000 mt mass for a Constituion-class (Star Trek TOS) Starship, that comes out to SIZ 101,185 (we could probably just round to 100,000 for our purposes). If we got with a 1,000 to 1 scale, then a Constitution-class starship would be SIZ 100, just where soltakss puts a Heavy Crusier!

With a Galaxy-class Starship from Star Trek TNG having a mass of 4.5 million metric tons, for SIZ 460,395 (we could round to 460,000), even 1000 to 1 would give us SIZ 460!

That's the problem with having numbers for starships. 4.5 Megatonnes is a hell of a spaceship and is, for all intents and purposes, impossible to build, except in a SciFi game/film/series/novel.

Each class of spaceship will be different - the Star Tek ships have different classes to Star Wars Imperial Cruisers or Mimbari Cruisers or whatever.

So at this scale, interaction with characters, unless we are talking Superman level, and that the "wimpy" post crisis one.), would be limited to said characters cutting holes through the hull and so forth.

Smaller ships would be the only ones worth having a direct coversion for, at least according to the CoC scale.

Agreed. While it would be useful to know if Mr Strong can lift and throw a Starfighter, it would be less useful to know that he couldn't lift a Battlestar.

Mile-long starships are probably just too big to be picked up by anything.

[soltakss]

Some Cruisers from the excellent Star wars DatabankStar Wars: Databank | Starship Archive:

Star wars Federation Cruiser

Size: 1,088 meters long

Manufacturer: Free Dac Volunteers, Pammant Docks

Type: Carrier/destroyer (Providence-class)

Weapon: 14 quad turbolaser turrets; 34 dual laser cannons; 2 ion cannons; 12 point-defence ion cannons; 102 proton torpedo tubes

Affiliation: Trade Federation; Confederacy of Independent Systems

Imperial Star Destroyer

Size: 1,600 meters long

Manufacturer: Kuat Drive Yards

Type: Cruiser

Affiliation: Empire

Associations: Daala, Admiral; Imperial Navy Troopers; Isard, Ysanne; Needa, Captain Lorth; Pellaeon, Gilad; Ren-Cha, Gir Kybo; Screed, Admiral; Thrawn, Grand Admiral

Dreadnaught Heavy Cruiser:

Size: 600 meters long

Manufacturer: Rendili StarDrive

Type: Dreadnaught heavy cruiser

Weapon: 10 turbolaser cannons, 20 quad turbolaser cannons, 10 turbolaser batteries

Affiliation: Galactic Empire

Associations: Bel Iblis, Garm

Republic Cruiser:

Homeworld: Coruscant

Size: 115 meters long

Manufacturer: Corellian Engineering Corporation

Type: Cruiser

Weapon: None

Affiliation: Jedi, Galactic Republic

Republic Attack Cruiser:

Size: 1,137 meters long

Manufacturer: Kuat Drive Yards

Type: Cruiser (Venator-class Star Destroyer)

Weapon: 8 heavy turbolasers; 2 medium dual turbolasers; 52 laser cannons; 4 proton torpedo launchers; 6 tractor beam projectors

Affiliation: Galactic Republic; Galactic Empire

Associations: Republic attack cruiser

Super Star Destroyer:

Homeworld: Fondor

Size: 19,000 meters

Manufacturer: Kuat Drive Yards

Type: Star Dreadnought

Weapon: Over 5,000 turbolasers and ion cannons.

Affiliation: Empire

Associations: Imperial Navy Troopers; Isard, Ysanne; Ozzel, Admiral Kendal; Piett, Admiral; Vader, Darth

Dreadnaught:

Size: 600 meters long

Manufacturer: Rendili StarDrive

Type: Dreadnaught heavy cruiser

Weapon: 10 turbolaser cannons, 20 quad turbolaser cannons, 10 turbolaser batteries

Affiliation: Galactic Empire

Associations: Bel Iblis, Garm; Dreadnaught heavy cruiser

Correlian Gunship:

Size: 120 meters long

Manufacturer: Corellian Engineering Corporation

Type: Mid-sized anti-starfighter starship

Weapon: 6 quad laser cannons; 8 double turbolaser cannons; 4 concussion missile tubes

Affiliation: Rebel Alliance

Dornean Gunship:

Size: 90 meters

Manufacturer: Dornean Braha'ket Fleetworks Conglomerate

Type: Anti-starfighter gunship

Weapon: 8 double turbolaser canons; 8 concussion missile launchers

Affiliation: Rebel Alliance

Trade Federation Battleship:

Size: 3170 meters diameter

Manufacturer: Hoersch- Kessel Drive

Type: battleship (converted freighter)

Weapon: Turbolaser cannons

Affiliation: Trade Federation

Associations: battle droid; Gunray, Nute; Haako, Rune

Trade Federation Gunship:

Size: 1,088 meters long

Manufacturer: Free Dac Volunteers, Pammant Docks

Type: Carrier/destroyer (Providence-class)

Weapon: 14 quad turbolaser turrets; 34 dual laser cannons; 2 ion cannons; 12 point-defense ion cannons; 102 proton torpedo tubes

Affiliation: Trade Federation; Confederacy of Independent Systems

Mon Calamari Star Cruiser:

Homeworld: Mon Calamari

Size: 1,200 meters long

Type: Capital ship cruiser

Weapon: Laser cannons, turbolasers, tractor beams

Affiliation: Rebel Alliance

Associations: Ackbar, Admiral; Mon Calamari

[soltakss]

Have a look at Federation Starships and Alpha Fleet Simulations Group's Federation Starship Directory for Star Trek ships and Federation starships - Memory Alpha, the Star Trek Wiki for mind-boggling detail.

http://www.st-minutiae.com/misc/comparison/comparison_huge.png for a comparison of different spaceships from different settings.

B5TECH.COM - The Babylon 5 Tech-Manual. for Babylon 5 stats, again in mind-boggling detail.

Battlestar Galactica: Technical Manual for Battlestar Galactica statistics.

So, there are websites that give length, mass, drive and weaponry information for a whole host of SciFi ships.

Now, all we need to do is to collate them into a single spreadsheet, decide on relative sizes, allocate SIZ to them, then work out other stats.

Easy, really.

[soltakss]

It just goes to show there are far nerdier people out there than me, I'm glad to say.

[Atgxtg]

Yeah, mix & matching from differernt ScFI settings is problematic.

One reason why I picked Trek to start with is that it has the densest ships. It has something to do with the warp engines. I figured that would make them the toughest to work out.

What we might have to end up doing is separating Volume from Mass when we do SIZ for ships, and only worry about mass for small ships. Going with the DecTrek rules here are some ship SIZes (note that we could multiply these by 5, 10,15, 20 to get BRP sizes). For instance, DecTrek multiplies SIZ xby 5 to get the HUll Points (Hit Points). Or we could use DECTrek SPACES as the BRP SIZ, the numbers aren't too bad.

Here are the base SIZ and SPACES in DEcTrek terms for some ships.

Constitution-class SIZ6, 81 spaces

Galaxy-class SIZ 8, 119 spaces

Star Wars

Federation Cruiser SIZ 11, 191 spaces

Imperial Star Destroyer SIZ 12, 219 spaces

Dreadnaught Heavy Crusier, SIZ 8, 119 spaces

Repulbic Crusier, SIZ 4, 51 spaces

Republic Attack Crusier SIZ 11, 191 spaces

Super Star Destroyer (19km) SIZ 25, 765 spaces

Death Star I (Star Wars 120km diameter), appox SIZ 85, 7,665 spaces

Death Star II (RotJ, 160knm) appox SIZ 112, 13119 spaces

Going with SIZ would put pretty much everything into the rough same range, except for the Death Stars, and I think that is fine, seeing as they were superweaons that could engage fleets.

Note that the big Star Wars ships tend to be bigger and have more weapons than their Star Trek counterparts. This isn't a problem unless we are mix & matching universes in a campaign. Plus, the Star Trek ships seem to have stronger weapons and shields.

The DEcTrek Rules (as will the d20 Star Wars ship design rules) class ship SIZes mostly by dimensions rather than mass (although mass ranges are available). Going by SIZ would give us a better universal scale to go with.

Thanks for the links. Was aware of most of them (I own a lot of SciFI RPGS).

One thing we could do, thanks to the linear SIZ table, is use different scales for certain SIZ ships, and just write the scale with the ship. So a fighter might be in the x1, x2, or x5 scale, while a big ship could be is the x1000 scale or whatever.

soltakiss,

if you really want to see nerdy, there is a Star Wars fan site that tried to rpove that Star Wars Ships are "better" than Star Trek ships and goes to extreme lengths to prove it, including selectively applying the laws of physics to prove it. naturally said laws are only used when they support their theory, and conviently ingored when they don't.

So you're not even in the running.

[Atgxtg]

Well, it is looking to be pretty clear that only supers will really be able to interact with big ships in anything remotely approaching the same scale. Barely.

So what I was thing was a rule like this:

If a ship fires a ship scale weapon at characters at hits, they are detroyed UNLESS they make a Luck roll. If they make the Luck roll the attack was a near miss, graze, or hit something close by that exploded, causing the characters to take the weapon's normal damage. SO a D8 laser cannon would end up doing 1D8 to heroes, a 4d6 weapon would do 4d6, and so on.

Generally speaking those big guns on ships aren't designed to fire at something that small, anyway.