Chalana Arroy sorcery?

[metcalph]

1 minute ago, PhilHibbs said:

I don't think Arroin healers think "I'm not allowed to do god magic because Arroin forbids it", isn't it more that "I actually can't because Arroin lost his magic and I follow his path"?

I think (based on past discussions in these forums about Chalanan ethics) that it's largely a matter of choice.  When made a Healer of Arroin, the rune magic is still htere, it's just not supposed to be used.  Some Arroinites might decide to take the next step by using up their rune magic uselessly and not bothering to get it re-used.  Others decided to forget their spirit magic and so forth.  There's no hard and fast rule about what a Healer of Arroin can't do - their is only a Magicless Ideal which they take various steps over the years to become closer to (or remain at an low level of magicality depending on their life choices).

[MJ Sadique]

I may digress a bit from the topic...

  

5 hours ago, metcalph said:

Yes, we are.  My statement is true even for the Loskalmi and the Seshnelans.

Things have changed somewhat since HQ1.0.  The Churches and broad Malkioni worship of the Invisible God with access to sorcerous magic no longer exists - sorcery is in the hands of the 1%, the sorcerers (to be fair to Greg, he was writing stuff that implied it as far back as Hero Wars: RIG but I and others didn't actually quite understand).

🤯 : Understanding Greg ... the greatest mystery of Glorantha. As a lot people, I never really admit that only sorcerers could use magic; I always understand this fact as Only Zzaburi could create new spells/magic and others cast could only use the spell they were teach. I can envision the true Sorcery at the hand of Zzaburi only but ...

If others Malkioni could not use sorcery, Fronela become a BasiC Sword n' Sorcery Land... pretty much boring and un-gloranthan to me. And some principle like the chain of veneration is just good to be throwed in the garbage bin 😵 .

But the problems only get bigger to me...

5 hours ago, metcalph said:

...

My statement is true even for the Loskalmi and the Seshnelans.
...
Everybody else uses spirit magic and rune magic (they don't worship the Big Gods but they can obtain rune magic from entities such as ancestors which don't make their wizards twitch).

Basically, this mean that a follower of Chalana Arroy may learn Sorcery but Malkioni wannabe healer cannot unless they are Sorcerers. why not 🤨

If Malkioni use spirit magic, this mean that they are chamans in Esvular, Loskalm and Seshnela. Esvulari Chaman in Kethaela seems pretty much common to me but Loskalm and Rokari shaman ... no way they can teach magic to all non-Zzaburi populace ! Unless we are speaking of some "Misapplied worship" like in HQ, I don't understand why Zzaburi don't twitch and ask to "BURN THESE PAGANS FOOOOOLS...." 🤣

The other solution is Rune magic : If we admit that malkioni pray their ancestors or saints to get Rune Magic, this mean that praying Xemela will give you same spells and abilities as Chalana Arroy and praying Hrestol, Saint of Knighthood will give you the similar abilities to a god of war like Yelmalio or Humakt. Why not ? I can envision this because having Malkioni use runes magic is a fine solution in terms of magic abilities and rules : the only detail is that malkioni ancestors/saint cannot accept POW sacrifice but only an equal amount in time/veneration (because Nysalor Creation was know to be a respond to Malkioni expansion -may not be canon anymore tough-).

 

I can understand "Great Sage Equal to Heaven" answer but in term of DESIGN, it's a bit boring having every contries/people with the same set of magics (Spirit or Sorcery + Runes). Glorantha is a spicy world because they exist different kind of people and different magics BUT if every one have access to the same spices, we just lose all the taste. HQ may not be canon but it had the very excellent ideas to give some bright and shiny colors to each magic. Losing this big step is a bit sad 😪.

I'm not against Chalana Arroy using sorcery and I pretty much think it's a very good Idea but If I had to (very) stupidly sum this up to my players : "a Barbarian warrior becoming a medic can learn sorcery but western warrior one cannot unless you are a sorcerer" ... I can hear my player laughing at me. And as a fan of RQ3 - HHS (1), this was exactly the biggest flaw of RQ3 to me.

PS : HHS : Heavily House Rules 😜. As usual, sorry for the big digression 🙇‍♂️

[Glorion]

On 6/24/2020 at 12:32 AM, Crel said:

Yep! Though as Metcalph notes, spirit magic and Rune magic are generally better in this regard. As I understand it, CA basically lets you use any sort of magical tradition/abilities, so long as you retain the vows of non-violence. The cult itself teaches neither sorcery nor shamanism, but its followers can engage in those practices.

In a tactical sense, this does let a CA adventurer become a very powerful "utility caster," with access to a wide variety of healing and support magics.

In a roleplay sense, I think a potential story to explain this is a person converting to Chalana Arroy after traumatic events. I believe coming back from the dead often leads to this, something called the "re-life sickness", which leads resurrected persons to convert to Humakt or Chalana Arroy. So the adventurer might have started learning sorcery before play, and then converted to CA while retaining their knowledge.

Should also note I don't know to what extent sorcery exists as a magic outside of cultic/religious structures. I think the implication of the Philosopher profession is that sorcery does exist outside of cults. Though RQG does note that many cults don't allow their followers to practice sorcery or become shamans, it doesn't include a list of which cults do and don't, so the point's a bit bunk.

In the West, doesn't all sorcery pretty much exist outside of cults? Yeah, there is veneration of saints, but that is different. The One God for whom Malkion is his prophet does not have a cult. And the Brithini certainly don't have cults! And of course there are the sorcerors of God Forgot, who don't believe in any gods in the first place, not even the One God.

[PhilHibbs]

4 hours ago, Glorion said:

In the West, doesn't all sorcery pretty much exist outside of cults? Yeah, there is veneration of saints, but that is different. The One God for whom Malkion is his prophet does not have a cult. And the Brithini certainly don't have cults! And of course there are the sorcerors of God Forgot, who don't believe in any gods in the first place, not even the One God.

"Cult" is just another word for "religion", perhaps more accurately "part of a religion". I'd say The Invisible God does have a religion in which sorcery is a big part, and sorcery doesn't happen much outside of that religion.

[Darius West]

On 7/1/2020 at 7:00 AM, MJ Sadique said:

Arroin stricly have no magic, he lose them and never get it back but he can still help and heal people and moreover ""Arroin"" don't have magic but his followers can have some if the pray others gods, spirits or saints. ^^

Wrong. Arroin has no DIVINE magic.  You cannot even join Arroin unless you know Healing 6 according to RQ:GoG forthcoming edition.  There is a big difference.

On 7/1/2020 at 7:00 AM, MJ Sadique said:

Why Sorcery ?

Because it isn't banned for Arroin, and fits too well with their brief.

On 7/1/2020 at 7:00 AM, MJ Sadique said:

First, Does Arroin/Chalana followers need magic : NO. Simply think how he can do this : First, you don't need magic to heal, you need to be a medic with skills, it's not as fast as magic but if you have hundreds of victims you will burn all your spell in 5 minutes, you save ten people and nothing more. A medic with skills could save a lot more people.

That is true to a point, and I agree, but what about bound magic points and crystals?  A good healer can get a  lot of stored magic over their career.  I have played a Healer who only ever used her first aid early in her career.  Playing an adventurer healer means you seldom need to heal more than 10 people.

On 7/1/2020 at 7:00 AM, MJ Sadique said:

Second, What sorcery have than Runic spell have not : First is the limitation, like the precedent case if you burn all you rune magic in one day you cannot use it for a long time; Spirit magic and Sorcery are not limited in number of use so Chalana's followers can use others magic to preserve their Rune Spells and still heal people.

Well, the point is, followers of Arroin gets no Divine magic at all.  This was my point.  Sorcery makes up for this shortfall handily, and even allows the regrowing of limbs.  Try doing that with first aid.

On 7/1/2020 at 7:00 AM, MJ Sadique said:

a Bad wound : a needle, a thread and some skill is enough

Now try sewing up a wound with 6 broo trying to rape you.

On 7/1/2020 at 7:00 AM, MJ Sadique said:

So Why choosing sorcery over spirit magic ? Mainly because Chalana follower would blend in the local culture to be able to use their magic without social problems : "Do in Rome as Romans Do". You live near malkioni, use sorcery... you live near some dumb-lanthi, use spirit magic ...XD

Sorry, but if you can make this remark you haven't understood the context of the argument at all.