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Leingod

Mortality in Glorantha

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9 hours ago, Eff said:

1) The point of the death of Orlanth and unintentional Windstop wasn't "just to defeat a bunch of rebels in a distant province". Ernalda didn't keel over in Esrolia when the Red Earth ruled, Waha is still alive in Prax while the Lunars are ruling it. The point was to bring about a cosmological shift in order to try and resolve the conflict in the Middle Air between Orlanth and Sedenya. EDIT: It might be going a bit too far to suggest that the Temples of the Reaching Storm exist as a consequence of the resolution of  this conflict, but that's a real possibility- that the cosmological conflict is resolved between 1621 and 1625 and after that it's all driven by mortals and demigods.

2) The Devil has already been running around inside Time according to Argrath himself. "Every six hundred years you have come..." and all that. 

3) That seems very debatable. Are the Kralori chaotic, because of their efforts to raise the Suam Chow? Was the EWF chaotic? Are Mostali and Aldyrami chaotic? How about the Uzhim and Triolini who are planning to block Magasta's pool? Magical megaprojects certainly don't appear to be inherently chaotic on their own, even ones that cause massive death and destruction as they are carried out. 

1. The Lunar crazies recreated the greater darkness, its difficult to imagine a greater abuse in Gloranthan terms. If recreating the greater darkness was a necessary step in the advancement of the Lunar Empire, that tells you all you need to know about the nature of the goddess, and whether defeating it was essential regardless of collateral damage, otherwise its evil magicians under the protection of the empire risking the destruction of the world for the empire's gain, magicians whose mythological abuses were encouraged by imperial authorities.

2. The devil manifests inside time, but I suggested recreating the greater darkness likely risked bringing him back with all his power, not some lesser but still very dangerous manifestation like Ralzakark. Note an absence of titanic towering monstrosity corrupting and warping the world with every hoof print. If the new temple of the reaching moon had embraced the block with its power, would the block have survived?

3. Orlanth is Dead states very explicitly the Lunars recreated the Greater Darkness, Broyan said it, the messengers said - the cold, the absence of gods. "This is the great darkness, prepare for the fight". Obviously this manifestation was incomplete, the sun still shone - but a mythological recreation of the Greater Darkness which affected a large area, which trapped Orlanth in the underworld and prevented him from completing the Great Compromise and returning to his people, this can't have been a good thing for the stability and safety of the world, and in my view has to qualify as a dangerous chaotic abuse which was perpetrated by the Lunars well before Argrath assumed leadership of the rebellion.

Edited by EricW

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33 minutes ago, EricW said:

Note an absence of titanic towering monstrosity corrupting and warping the world with every hoof print.

That's because it is down south in the Nargan Desert and erupting upon the poor inhabitants there. They send Harrek off to deal with it.

34 minutes ago, EricW said:

but a mythological recreation of the Greater Darkness which affected a large area, which trapped Orlanth in the underworld and prevented him from completing the Great Compromise and returning to his people, this can't have been a good thing for the stability and safety of the world

It was noted somewhere that the killing of Orlanth and Ernalda broke the Great Compromise and initiated the Hero Wars.  It was not a good thing.

35 minutes ago, EricW said:

has to qualify as a dangerous chaotic abuse

That's a different question, though. The Crimson Bat was already defeated and driven out of the mundane world. The final conquest of Whitewall seems largely to have been in the hands of Tatius and the Dara Happans, with Shargash killing Ernalda (and possibly Orlanth).  It's more like the defeat of Umath in that sense. But the Great Winter was not supposedly intended, so while it flipped over some myths, it does not seem like deliberate chaotic abuse in that instance.

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I mean, if the Lunars did what they did intentionally, then they're genocidal bastards who wiped out somewhere between a fifth and a sixth of the population of Sartar without batting an eye for power. If they didn't know what would happen, then they're a bunch of arrogant meddlers who aren't as smart as they think they are and got a lot of people killed because of it (which puts them in the same category of hubris as the God Learners). Neither paints a flattering picture, and we can argue whether the Lunars or Argrath are the lesser evil until the Fifth Age comes around, but I'm never going to consider the Lunars "the good guys" or anything close to it, and the Windstop is only a small part of the reason.

EDIT: And let's not forget that, upon hearing of the deaths of both Orlanth and Ernalda within the Windstop, the Red Emperor's response was as follows:

Quote

The Red Emperor declares an Extra Full Moon Year throughout the Heartland of the Empire to celebrate the defeat of the ‘Rebel Gods.’ All full citizens are granted a year without taxes, and commoners are invited to join in the official revels held in all the temples of the Seven Mothers and the Red Goddess.

No such benefits are granted to the provinces, nor are their celebrations so grandiose.

Oh yeah, that's how a benevolent and enlightened ruler reacts to learning that he's consigned large numbers of men, women, and children to die horrible deaths of cold and starvation to win his mommy a divine pissing contest. Definitely.

Edited by Leingod

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1 hour ago, EricW said:

1. The Lunar crazies recreated the greater darkness, its difficult to imagine a greater abuse in Gloranthan terms. If recreating the greater darkness was a necessary step in the advancement of the Lunar Empire, that tells you all you need to know about the nature of the goddess, and whether defeating it was essential regardless of collateral damage, otherwise its evil magicians under the protection of the empire risking the destruction of the world for the empire's gain, magicians whose mythological abuses were encouraged by imperial authorities.

2. The devil manifests inside time, but I suggested recreating the greater darkness likely risked bringing him back with all his power, not some lesser but still very dangerous manifestation like Ralzakark. Note an absence of titanic towering monstrosity corrupting and warping the world with every hoof print. If the new temple of the reaching moon had embraced the block with its power, would the block have survived?

3. Orlanth is Dead states very explicitly the Lunars recreated the Greater Darkness, Broyan said it, the messengers said - the cold, the absence of gods. "This is the great darkness, prepare for the fight". Obviously this manifestation was incomplete, the sun still shone - but a mythological recreation of the Greater Darkness which affected a large area, which trapped Orlanth in the underworld and prevented him from completing the Great Compromise and returning to his people, this can't have been a good thing for the stability and safety of the world, and in my view has to qualify as a dangerous chaotic abuse which was perpetrated by the Lunars well before Argrath assumed leadership of the rebellion.

Well now, I haven't said anything about "necessary", because that imputes a level of organization and communication with the divine that nobody in the setting possesses, and even if we assume that the relatively frequent contact with the Red Moon and the handful of operating demigods in the Lunar Empire means that they have a higher level of communication with the divine, this is surely negated, if not outweighed, by the fact that the Red Goddess is significantly less coherent in Her communication with Her worshipers. 

I think arguing that the Windstop is a recreation of the Greater Darkness is rather fraught from a mythological perspective- it seems that way to Sartarites for whom Orlanth and Ernalda are central to the cosmos, but there's no shredding of reality. There's no Shadow's Good Shadow popping up, or sections of ground suddenly and without fanfare turning to gorp. It's a deadly unending winter where only Molanni reigns and the ground is infertile, which is bad enough, but it very obviously isn't the end of the world. The Fimbulwinter is the predecessor to Ragnarok, not Ragnarok itself. 

But that's not really relevant here. Even pointing out that the decision to put so much effort into the siege of Whitewall, which I believe is what caused Orlanth's death when Whitewall fell (in that by literalizing Whitewall as the "last rebel city" it became identified with Rebellus Terminus/Orlanatus/Orlanth) is not especially relevant here, nor pointing out that there was substantial difference of opinion on whether to focus on Whitewall and the Volsaxi or on Esrolia between Tatius and Fazzur, and we know that Fazzur is hardly some provincial rube when it comes to the Lunar Way, and thus any assertion that the death of Orlanth and the Windstop was an inevitable consequence of the Way or of the Empire requires making assumptions about what the real will of Sedenya is that are just not really justifiable on the existing material, all of that is also not especially relevant. 

The real discussion here is basically, "The Lunars and their goddess are intrinsically opposed to continued life on Glorantha" versus "No, they're not". Which is not an especially interesting discussion, because it amounts to "the Lunars have a dissident take on what Chaos is, therefore they want, or are OK with, or would necessarily cause, Wakboth II: Electric Boogaloo." Which is fairly well false. The Lunars still position the Devil as the source of ultimate moral evil in the universe, and identify their Blaskarth-Devil with Wakboth, Kajabor, Sekever, etc. They have a fairly outre take on just what the Devil actually is, but they still position the great triumph of Sedenya and the recovery of her divinity as being through overcoming the Devil. 

Furthermore, the Lunars aren't intrinsically opposed to the Storm Bull cult, since they don't ban it like they ban Orlanth's, and don't even try to restrict the Storm Bull cultists that surround the Block. There's no particular reason to think that the Reaching Moon Temple would short out the Block, then, because there's no grand mythical opposition present which would counter the cosmogonic act of laying down the Law on Wakboth. You can point to Lunars being somewhat more intolerant of Storm Bully antics than Praxians or Sartarites, perhaps. You can suggest that conflict is inevitable because Storm Bullies will locate Centurion Incontinentia Secunda and that tiny, little, minuscule Chaos taint she picked up from a Chaos Gift spell a decade ago and start a fight, but that's not a grand mythic opposition. But the idea that Lunar victory in Sartar and Prax means a big gribbly monster bursting from beneath the Block and going "Muahahaha" and devouring life and existence as an inevitable and natural consequence of their rule over a fairly small corner of the world just isn't justifiable. Hell, even the idea that Lunars would necessarily act to protect random broos or walktapi that Storm Bullies went after is frankly inconceivable.

So when the stakes are set at that level, it's really not a very interesting discussion because of course the Lunars aren't inimical to life by essence, unless you're stuck on viewing them in the Warhammer mode. There are more interesting discussions to be had about how justifiable the Lunar Way is and whether it can be described as true or not, but they're just not happening if the opening is "The completion of the Reaching Moon Temple would have killed Storm Bull and recreated the Devil." 

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1 hour ago, Fedman Kassad said:

Does anyone remember when this was a thread about the mortality of populations living in a magical world?

That youngling thread died of mythological causes.

 

 

(edit:  which is not to say that the right heroquest couldn't resurrect it!)

 

Edited by g33k
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Popping in here to say that the mortality rate rate is definitely higher sheerly because of how many of us died trying to increase our weapon skills in RQ2.

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11 minutes ago, Richard S. said:

Popping in here to say that the mortality rate rate is definitely higher sheerly because of how many of us died trying to increase our weapon skills in RQ2.

Indeed. 1/200 Fumbles are still a critical hit to your own head, after all.

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Steering back towards the original topic.

Whether or not you agree with Argath or the Lunars, the apocalyptic ending of the Third Age is the perfect example of how I think Glorantha's mortality works.  During the good parts of an age, population booms, swelling in size, then much of the population dies horribly in an apocalypse.

In certain places, like Dragon Pass, the continual state of low level war probably keeps the population in check.  Any society with regular raiding loses a lot of people over time.  This is why people died by violence more in Earth's past despite our better weapons for killing.

Certainly, playing King of Dragon Pass, or Six Ages, my population dies in droves.

 

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7 hours ago, jajagappa said:

That's because it is down south in the Nargan Desert and erupting upon the poor inhabitants there. They send Harrek off to deal with it.

It was noted somewhere that the killing of Orlanth and Ernalda broke the Great Compromise and initiated the Hero Wars.  It was not a good thing.

That's a different question, though. The Crimson Bat was already defeated and driven out of the mundane world. The final conquest of Whitewall seems largely to have been in the hands of Tatius and the Dara Happans, with Shargash killing Ernalda (and possibly Orlanth).  It's more like the defeat of Umath in that sense. But the Great Winter was not supposedly intended, so while it flipped over some myths, it does not seem like deliberate chaotic abuse in that instance.

Suggesting the great winter was unintended requires accepting the people who tried to kill Orlanth and Ernelda didn't know what they were doing. I mean its possible, but it seems unlikely people who were capable of causing a magical effect of that magnitude should have at least been aware of the possibility.

This is further borne out by the suggestion in Orlanth is Dead that people who embraced the seven mothers and the goddess initially took less harm in the great winter, but after the Orlanthi won the battle of winter top the tables suddenly turned, and loyal Orlanthi were the ones who discovered their herds were intact and their homes had survived. 

I suggest the Lunars knew what they were doing.

 

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5 hours ago, Eff said:

Well now, I haven't said anything about "necessary", because that imputes a level of organization and communication with the divine that nobody in the setting possesses, and even if we assume that the relatively frequent contact with the Red Moon and the handful of operating demigods in the Lunar Empire means that they have a higher level of communication with the divine, this is surely negated, if not outweighed, by the fact that the Red Goddess is significantly less coherent in Her communication with Her worshipers. 

I think arguing that the Windstop is a recreation of the Greater Darkness is rather fraught from a mythological perspective- it seems that way to Sartarites for whom Orlanth and Ernalda are central to the cosmos, but there's no shredding of reality. There's no Shadow's Good Shadow popping up, or sections of ground suddenly and without fanfare turning to gorp. It's a deadly unending winter where only Molanni reigns and the ground is infertile, which is bad enough, but it very obviously isn't the end of the world. The Fimbulwinter is the predecessor to Ragnarok, not Ragnarok itself. 

But that's not really relevant here. Even pointing out that the decision to put so much effort into the siege of Whitewall, which I believe is what caused Orlanth's death when Whitewall fell (in that by literalizing Whitewall as the "last rebel city" it became identified with Rebellus Terminus/Orlanatus/Orlanth) is not especially relevant here, nor pointing out that there was substantial difference of opinion on whether to focus on Whitewall and the Volsaxi or on Esrolia between Tatius and Fazzur, and we know that Fazzur is hardly some provincial rube when it comes to the Lunar Way, and thus any assertion that the death of Orlanth and the Windstop was an inevitable consequence of the Way or of the Empire requires making assumptions about what the real will of Sedenya is that are just not really justifiable on the existing material, all of that is also not especially relevant. 

The real discussion here is basically, "The Lunars and their goddess are intrinsically opposed to continued life on Glorantha" versus "No, they're not". Which is not an especially interesting discussion, because it amounts to "the Lunars have a dissident take on what Chaos is, therefore they want, or are OK with, or would necessarily cause, Wakboth II: Electric Boogaloo." Which is fairly well false. The Lunars still position the Devil as the source of ultimate moral evil in the universe, and identify their Blaskarth-Devil with Wakboth, Kajabor, Sekever, etc. They have a fairly outre take on just what the Devil actually is, but they still position the great triumph of Sedenya and the recovery of her divinity as being through overcoming the Devil. 

Furthermore, the Lunars aren't intrinsically opposed to the Storm Bull cult, since they don't ban it like they ban Orlanth's, and don't even try to restrict the Storm Bull cultists that surround the Block. There's no particular reason to think that the Reaching Moon Temple would short out the Block, then, because there's no grand mythical opposition present which would counter the cosmogonic act of laying down the Law on Wakboth. You can point to Lunars being somewhat more intolerant of Storm Bully antics than Praxians or Sartarites, perhaps. You can suggest that conflict is inevitable because Storm Bullies will locate Centurion Incontinentia Secunda and that tiny, little, minuscule Chaos taint she picked up from a Chaos Gift spell a decade ago and start a fight, but that's not a grand mythic opposition. But the idea that Lunar victory in Sartar and Prax means a big gribbly monster bursting from beneath the Block and going "Muahahaha" and devouring life and existence as an inevitable and natural consequence of their rule over a fairly small corner of the world just isn't justifiable. Hell, even the idea that Lunars would necessarily act to protect random broos or walktapi that Storm Bullies went after is frankly inconceivable.

So when the stakes are set at that level, it's really not a very interesting discussion because of course the Lunars aren't inimical to life by essence, unless you're stuck on viewing them in the Warhammer mode. There are more interesting discussions to be had about how justifiable the Lunar Way is and whether it can be described as true or not, but they're just not happening if the opening is "The completion of the Reaching Moon Temple would have killed Storm Bull and recreated the Devil." 

Orlanth is dead explicitly describes the magical catastrophe wrought by the Lunars as a manifestation of the Great Darkness, so I'm on pretty firm ground with this assertion.

As for Wakboth - who knows? But it seems reasonable to argue that a magical recreation of the greater darkness weakens the bonds which hold Wakboth.

As for Sedenya and the Devil, its difficult to argue that a group which wilfully recreates the greater darkness is embracing restraint. They might have been more cautious before the red emperor was destroyed, but they were still eager and willing to achieve some horrific magic effects. Which is why I argue the monster empire was there all along, but it was slightly better disguised or maybe a little less advanced in the time of Orlanth is dead. 

Edited by EricW

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18 hours ago, Eff said:

There's a pretty strong tension between "weakened the empire" and "revealed the true monster empire that was there all along". If the Empire was at its apex under Phargentes the Younger, and the Empire has always been a means to tear down the fabric of reality etc., why does killing the Red Emperor accelerate the Empire's plan rather than delay it? There's always the possibility, of course, that Emperor Ralzakark or Ragnaglar or whoever actually is sitting in Glamour in the last days of the Empire is a product of sheer desperation- but then we must place some share of the responsibility for that desperation and its consequences for reality on Prince Argrath. 

That's if your story goes that way. I really think reading 'KoS' as uncontestable fact is dangerous, It's a Gloranthan document (or series of them). And even if you think it's accurate, it's only accurate for the 'Sartarites as heroes' version of how Glorantha can go. The Lunar book would have been very different.  So sure, you can tell a story where the Empire was always the monster empire underneath. But not every story has to be that.  Why are we even arguing this?  One of the great things of Glorantha is that so much of it is presented as in world subjective, rather than objective from the outside, documents.  We can each put our interpretations on them and tell the stories we want.  You might prefer variants where certain people/sides/povs are good/evil. But that doesn't mean another story can't do something completely different.

 

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2 hours ago, John Biles said:

Steering back towards the original topic.

Whether or not you agree with Argath or the Lunars, the apocalyptic ending of the Third Age is the perfect example of how I think Glorantha's mortality works.  During the good parts of an age, population booms, swelling in size, then much of the population dies horribly in an apocalypse.

The potential speed of the boom will be affected dramatically by mortality numbers, especially child mortality.

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On 6/27/2020 at 10:27 PM, Akhôrahil said:

My interpretation of Argrath is that he doesn't sacrifice his followers and allies needlessly, but definitely sacrifice them needfully. 

This is the role of a successful military leader.  Any soldier signs on with the recognition that their life might need to be sacrificed needfully.  They hope it won't come to that, but they all know the risks.  Now compare Argrath to the Lunars and their drafting of levies.  But it's okay for the Lunars to do that because peace is war, slavery is freedom, and poverty is wealth according to some.  I would far prefer to serve a commander who wins like Argrath, than a loser like Kallyr who will waste my life in her latest futile gesture of defiance.  Kallyr didn't win, happenstance handed her victory. The Lunars lost due to the Long Winter and the Dragonrise (which was caused by one of Argrath's followers).  Kallyr was ever the incompetent.  By the end of his reign Argrath's victories far outweigh his defeats by comparison.

On 6/27/2020 at 10:27 PM, Akhôrahil said:

Nothing in the universe is anything except a tool for him.

Argrath has a job to do.  He needs to bring down the Lunar Empire.  Now you can try to dehumanize him and imply he's a psychopath, but I would say, look at the heroes of the age by comparison...  

Beat-Pot Aelwrin - A known rapist who betrayed his rebel slave comrades and left them to be slaughtered, so he could go on and become the very instrument of repression for the system he rebelled against for the sake of some self-contradicting slogans and some ginger minge.  Basically Spartacus minus any moral backbone to speak of.

Jar-Eel - The ginger chic who seduced a known rapist and slaughtered his rebellion on the grounds that slavery is freedom, war is peace etc.  Not to mention someone who thinks that the Crimson Bat is her friend, and levied peasant lives don't matter.  A true daughter of privilege, who has grown up with the whole world kissing her ass and telling her she's a goddess.  Is she even responsible for her actions or is her sense of agency a sham created by the vested interest who use her for their political ends?  She is the boot stamping on the human face forever.  For her Torture is Compassion, yet for her, compassion is torture.

The Red Emperor - A rogues gallery of opportunists, perverts, traitors, hypocrites and actual chaos monsters who are all pretending to be the same person under the watchful eye of Big Momma.

Delecti the Necromancer - Actually a nicer guy than some on this list, plus he doesn't sparkle in the sunlight.  His main problems are anti-social eating habits and the delusion that mud is real estate.

Sir Ethilrist - The very definition of a malignant narcissist with likely psychopathic tendencies and quite possibly some OCD thrown in, given that he meticulously records everything he does.

Harrek the Berserker - The very definition of antisocial personality disorder.

Gunda the Guilty - Harrek's co-dependent enabler.

Belintar - Basically Ephraim Waite from Lovecraft's "The Thing on the Doorstep" but with gladiators to possess.

Cragspider - A known arsonist and literal inhuman monster.

Androgeus - Not exactly the poster-child for transgender social responsibility.  Commits mayhem wherever they go, widely mistrusted.  Gives birth to dangerous nutcases.

To be fair, Ironhoof seems okay, and the feathered Horse Queen is just a bit of a temple prostitute, and idk enough about the Twins to comment.  By comparison, Argrath looks innovative, and compassionate.  He is perhaps a bit single-minded, but not without cause, as he has a duty as leader to maintain the freedom and survival of his people, and that cannot be guaranteed while the Lunar Empire exists.  He doesn't owe his enemies compassion, only his own people, and no, he wouldn't throw their lives away needlessly, which is the best you can hope for in a war of attrition and annihilation.  What would happen if Argrath walked away from it all?  Peace? No.  Definitely not.  The outcome would be the genocide of Sartar, the Holy Country and Prax, as the Lunars will be in no mood for a repeat performance.  This is born out by the period where Argrath is badly defeated and this outcome almost occurs.

On 6/27/2020 at 10:27 PM, Akhôrahil said:

In RQ terms, anyone who is worth 3 points of POW can be fairly easily resurrected (assuming time-span, access to body, and so on) - even Ernalda can do that! With CA available, it becomes so cheap that one has to wonder why it doesn't happen constantly (my interpretation would be that CA cultists heal so much that they tend to be constantly low on Rune Points, and while healing is a religious duty, resurrection isn't, so it will often take the back seat).

Fun fact: While CA of course has usable Resurrect, when you really want someone back, Daka Fal shamans are more likely to manage to browbeat the soul to come back due to much better Spirit Combat. 

Agreed almost completely.  I personally suspect that CA cultists don't generally waste their RP on spells that they can duplicate with ordinary daily magic points via Spirit spell healing, potions, or sorcery.  IMO resurrections and regrow limbs are the CA bread and butter.   As far as the rules are concerned Daka Fal has the same issues vis resurrection as other people, but I like you take on it.

Edited by Darius West

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On 6/26/2020 at 11:28 PM, Nick Brooke said:

Because we can read.

Can you?  Interpretation is key to reading comprehension.

Edited by Darius West
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54 minutes ago, Darius West said:

 IMO resurrections and regrow limbs are the CA bread and butter.

I would probably say diseases, poisons, and limbs. Regular old damage healing, and even characteristics healing using easily accessible Rune Magic, can be covered by regular folks.

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One constant in every Age since Time began is that anything that seriously alters the state of the Gloranthan cosmos ultimately summons its own destruction.

The birth of a new manufactured god, the attempt to create a new manufactured dragon, the exploitation of the cosmos, the creation of a perfect society, the rebirth of a moon, all lead to their equal and opposite and massive destruction.

Nysalor's Bright Empire led to a war across a continent; the EWF tried to utilize draconic powers and the dragons returned to eat it; the Middle Sea Empire rose to great heights until the laws of nature brought it down; the New Hrestolism of Loskalm is mirrored by the Kingdom of War; the rise of the Red Moon will ultimately cause it to fall.

Nysalor summoned Arkat.

The Red Emperor summoned Sheng Seleris.

Jar-eel summoned Argrath.

All these things will bring massive destruction because each distorts Glorantha, and as before Time, each leads to an increase in entropy and the devolving of nature and magic.

Morality in these events is almost impossible to determine, but they all bring a massive increase in mortality.

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4 hours ago, Darius West said:

Can you?  Interpretation is key to reading comprehension.

"Darius West" thinks I need his help to understand Glorantha.

Cool, thanks for that, dude. Appreciate it.

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Trying to get back to the subject, has anybody computed the total number of Rezs that can happen in Sartar each season?  There are a limited amount of CA cultists who know Rez, they have limited Rune Points, and there are limits to how many RP they can recover per season.  And many of the RPs will be used for other healing.

So an interesting exercise would be to calculate, at least roughly, how many people can be Rezed per season vs. how many die violently.

 

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4 hours ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

Trying to get back to the subject, has anybody computed the total number of Rezs that can happen in Sartar each season?  There are a limited amount of CA cultists who know Rez, they have limited Rune Points, and there are limits to how many RP they can recover per season.  And many of the RPs will be used for other healing.

So an interesting exercise would be to calculate, at least roughly, how many people can be Rezed per season vs. how many die violently.

Plus they need to beat down the prospective resurrectee in spirit combat. That either means that they're casting Spirit Block or Spirit Screen a lot, or that they're really good at Spirit Combat, but in either case I'd say you could reasonably conclude that 1 resurrection per day per priestess was pretty much a hard maximum.

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7 hours ago, Nick Brooke said:

"Darius West" thinks I need his help to understand Glorantha.

Cool, thanks for that, dude. Appreciate it.

Out of curiosity, imagine you were in Argrath's shoes, at the point in his career where you think he went wrong. What would you have done differently? 

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I ain't anyone in authority, but I'm gonna ask y'all to please take your knives and arguments to a private message or at least another topic. This is getting increasingly away from the point and, from the sounds of things, frustrating for all involved. If you aren't directly addressing the question of Glorantha's mortality rate then take it elsewhere - despite its similar sound, morality is an entirely separate issue.

Edit: another thing - this is a fucking fantasy world that exists entirely within our imagination and has no bearing on our actual lives. Don't get so riled up over what other people think of things in it, it doesn't matter.

Edited by Richard S.
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I genuinely don't get all this very real animus put into championing moral issues around Argrath's actions. Who cares, they're just background plot development to make things interesting for story hooks. It makes no difference unless you're specifically embodying someone within the Glorantha universe who has a perspective on these actions.

(I know I'm being a bit flippant here, but it's getting a bit parodical, honestly)

On 6/25/2020 at 2:28 PM, Darius West said:

As a result a violent death is the most likely for most Gloranthans, and they have a risk taking culture that supports this. 
 


I can't see this. The idea that violent, combative deaths are THE NORM in Glorantha takes this from being a setting based on adventure over a anthropological and mythological underpinning of people living their daily lives and empires rising and falling to basically being THUNDERDOME: THE SETTING. 

I don't disagree that endemic warfare is a real thing, and that monsters exist, or that violent clashes between empires cause catalclysmic results, but again, making violent, combative deaths the norm would require frankly ludicrous amounts of violence on an everyday basis that seems at odds with what Glorantha presents itself as. 

If others who know more about this than me says otherwise, fair enough, but from where I'm standing now, it would seem like you'd have to increase RW rates of violence and killing in people's lives by an unfeasible amount to make the result come out correctly. 

 

Edited by Sir_Godspeed
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1 hour ago, Richard S. said:

I ain't anyone in authority, but I'm gonna ask y'all to please take your knives and arguments to a private message or at least another topic. This is getting increasingly away from the point and, from the sounds of things, frustrating for all involved. If you aren't directly addressing the question of Glorantha's mortality rate then take it elsewhere - despite its similar sound, morality is an entirely separate issue.

Edit: another thing - this is a fucking fantasy world that exists entirely within our imagination and has no bearing on our actual lives. Don't get so riled up over what other people think of things in it, it doesn't matter.

Fair point, started a new topic for people who want to discuss Argrath.

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12 hours ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

Trying to get back to the subject, has anybody computed the total number of Rezs that can happen in Sartar each season?  There are a limited amount of CA cultists who know Rez, they have limited Rune Points, and there are limits to how many RP they can recover per season.  And many of the RPs will be used for other healing.

So an interesting exercise would be to calculate, at least roughly, how many people can be Rezed per season vs. how many die violently.

 

absolutely

and they have limited time too. "Rezing" one could kill several they have no time / magic to heal, herbs to find, etc...

Two other reasons I consider resurrection very rare :

1) death is normal / natural / fate.

trying to break this fate could bring more chaos than hope (is death the standard of the great compromise ?).

The resurrected is changed. He/she is probably still ready to join his/her ancestors in gods halls (and sartarite have proof the ancestors will welcome them)

Resurrection should be dedicated to people / hero who have something to finish. A kind of balance between what the resurrected would bring good and what the resurrection would bring bad

 

2) death is Humakt.

How many sartarite nobles / ring will try to challenge humakti ?

They need good reason to rob Humakt , don't they ?

After all, some humakti kill(ed) CA cultists just because Chalana is.

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