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Leingod

Mortality in Glorantha

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50 minutes ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

2) death is Humakt.

How many sartarite nobles / ring will try to challenge humakti ?

They need good reason to rob Humakt , don't they ?

After all, some humakti kill(ed) CA cultists just because Chalana is.

Well... CA is a Lightbringer, Humakt is not. Humakti are somewhat like Uroxi - you need them handy, but they're not exactly good citizens (in the Uroxi case, because they are wild and beligerent, in the Humakt case, because they are somewhat single minded). Of course these are stereotypes, but I think that's largely inevitable if you're talking about preferring Humakt over Chalana Arroy (or vice versa).

At the very least I don't think it's a given that all clans would give preference to Death over Harmony. I suspect, ala KoDP, most would take a balanced approach, some would indeed favour Humakt (war clans), some would favour CA (peace clans).

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3 hours ago, GAZZA said:

Well... CA is a Lightbringer, Humakt is not.

Although Humakt always accompanies him as Humakt is Orlanth's lightbringers sword / Unbreakable sword. 

See the Arming of Orlanth in KoS

Quote

Then Heler girded about his lord’s waist a stout belt cut with magical figures, which bore the sword whose name is Humakt.

Likewise with Babeester - his axe.

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15 hours ago, David Scott said:

Although Humakt always accompanies him as Humakt is Orlanth's lightbringers sword / Unbreakable sword. 

See the Arming of Orlanth in KoS

Likewise with Babeester - his axe.

And CA is his bandages, LM is his cheat sheet, Issaries is his map... :)

In all seriousness, yes, fair enough - but I don't think it's reasonable to conclude from that, that Humakt and BBG are Lightbringers (doubtless there are hidden myths that reveal otherwise, but that doesn't seem to be a mainstream belief). I was merely pointing out that the idea that Humakt was more important to a particular Orlanthi/Clan/Tribe than CA is, at least, not a given.

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1 hour ago, GAZZA said:

And CA is his bandages, LM is his cheat sheet, Issaries is his map...

What's Eurmal, his "lucky" rabbit's foot?

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1 minute ago, Leingod said:

What's Eurmal, his "lucky" rabbit's foot?

I was thinking more his Travel Games set, but yours works too.

Just let's not get into what his Flesh Man is. :)

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On 6/29/2020 at 4:49 AM, Nick Brooke said:

"Darius West" thinks I need his help to understand Glorantha.

Cool, thanks for that, dude. Appreciate it.

You want to spin things a certain way. and that's fine, but it is only one interpretation.

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On 6/29/2020 at 4:24 AM, M Helsdon said:

One constant in every Age since Time began is that anything that seriously alters the state of the Gloranthan cosmos ultimately summons its own destruction.

The birth of a new manufactured god, the attempt to create a new manufactured dragon, the exploitation of the cosmos, the creation of a perfect society, the rebirth of a moon, all lead to their equal and opposite and massive destruction.

Nysalor's Bright Empire led to a war across a continent; the EWF tried to utilize draconic powers and the dragons returned to eat it; the Middle Sea Empire rose to great heights until the laws of nature brought it down; the New Hrestolism of Loskalm is mirrored by the Kingdom of War; the rise of the Red Moon will ultimately cause it to fall.

Nysalor summoned Arkat.

The Red Emperor summoned Sheng Seleris.

Jar-eel summoned Argrath.

All these things will bring massive destruction because each distorts Glorantha, and as before Time, each leads to an increase in entropy and the devolving of nature and magic.

Morality in these events is almost impossible to determine, but they all bring a massive increase in mortality.

That is one way to look at it certainly, but what is causing the effect?  Obviously the Great Compromise is important as a factor, as is Time, but what of the heroes that have no apparent "nemesis" to their destiny?  I have always preferred to view this as Glorantha's immune system reacting to new deities as if they are a fresh disease.  For example, is Ironhoof the nemesis of Delecti, or is it Indrodar Greydog?  Who is Cragspider's nemesis?  I am not saying you are wrong, as clearly many heroes have a clear nemesis, Pavis/Jaldon Toothmaker, and Sir Ethilrist/Keener Than, for example, but is this an inevitable product of becoming a hero that you summon a nemesis/shadow?  Or is it that if as a hero you exert power, you will eventually bump into someone of equivalent power who doesn't like your ambition i.e. happenstance?  Is the enemy that pulls down your city in Glorantha entropy (Time'/Kajabor), or fate (Time/Arachne Solara?), or an equal and opposite force (Arkat/Nysalor), or is it just a product of heroes butting heads (Yanafal Tarnils/Humakt)?  To what degree is this apparent balanced opposition a contrivance too, and how much of it is actually a projection from the reader?

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1 hour ago, Darius West said:

That is one way to look at it certainly, but what is causing the effect?  Obviously the Great Compromise is important as a factor, as is Time, but what of the heroes that have no apparent "nemesis" to their destiny?  I have always preferred to view this as Glorantha's immune system reacting to new deities as if they are a fresh disease.  For example, is Ironhoof the nemesis of Delecti, or is it Indrodar Greydog?  Who is Cragspider's nemesis?  I am not saying you are wrong, as clearly many heroes have a clear nemesis, Pavis/Jaldon Toothmaker, and Sir Ethilrist/Keener Than, for example, but is this an inevitable product of becoming a hero that you summon a nemesis/shadow?  Or is it that if as a hero you exert power, you will eventually bump into someone of equivalent power who doesn't like your ambition i.e. happenstance?  Is the enemy that pulls down your city in Glorantha entropy (Time'/Kajabor), or fate (Time/Arachne Solara?), or an equal and opposite force (Arkat/Nysalor), or is it just a product of heroes butting heads (Yanafal Tarnils/Humakt)?  To what degree is this apparent balanced opposition a contrivance too, and how much of it is actually a projection from the reader?

I suspect it depends upon whether the balance of the cosmos is threatened. There are heroes, and for want of a better word, super-heroes, so I suspect it depends on power and the size of the region affected, so both Delecti and Cragspider are fairly local, but Arkat and Nysalor, the Red Emperor and Sheng, Jar-eel and Argrath all have continent wide effects. Pavis was attempting to recreate the Green Age.

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On 6/30/2020 at 12:09 AM, GAZZA said:

Just let's not get into what his Flesh Man is.

Oh we should definitely get into it by moving over the "dumb theories" thread!!   I'm totally here for this "Orlanthi Voltron" theory!!

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I think on this issue we really need to acknowledge that this is a fictional setting and the various forces can tilt one way or the other, or balance out however we want. There's no objective way we ca determine this, what are we going to do conduct a set of multilateral double blind trials and surveys of populations in Glorantha? Someone would just have to make up the results. The fact is there are many counterbalancing factors - beneficial magic, rituals, spirits and gods on one side; hostile magic, monsters, chaos, cultists and demons on the other. My own preference is that the factors generally cancel out, to produce societies recognisable for us as similar to their historical analogues, so we can more easily reason about how those societies function and imagine what they look like. If in your game you want the outcome to look different, there are plenty of ways to justify whatever outcome you want. Looking at the sources, in Gloranthan history some societies throve and expanded while others were wiped out.

Appealing to the RQ or HQ rules for spells and such doesn't resolve anything, any more than it resolves what will happen in any given RQ scenario. As a GM I can write into existence how ever many or few Chaos cultists, Broo, Malia shamans, etc that I want, with however much magic and whatever equipment I want them to have. I generally choose to balance them roughly against the PCs and have the ingenuity and creativity of the PCs, and their better efficient use of their character's abilities (there are more of them than me) win the day. Same thing for the societies and world they live in.

Edited by simonh
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On 6/26/2020 at 3:23 AM, French Desperate WindChild said:

I fully agree with you except here. Very few are resurrected

I found few month ago some evidence : https://glorantha.fandom.com/wiki/Argrath's_Companions

named companions, so important companions of the great Argrath (at least in the eyes of "victorious" historians) are killed and not resurrected. How one of the most powerful leaders of the world is not able to resurrect his best followers ?

Agreed FDWC, it is odd how these important companions are not resurrected, and I have also noted this problem.  Certainly it is hard to account for given the rules.  So let's think about this a bit laterally for a moment and search for an answer, however remote.

1) Obviously Humakti don't get resurrected.  If someone initiates into Humakt and gets killed, that's the end of them.

2) I believe it is possible to sufficiently mutilate a body that resurrection becomes impossible.  Similarly crucifixion (death on a death rune) also denies resurrection.

3) Perhaps it wasn't possible to get them to a healer in time?  If a person lies dead for more than a week, they will lose all their skills according to the RQ2 resurrection rules.  It was always a factor when a character died back in RQ2 in my experience.  This is where godbones came in handy, as they prevented skill loss.

4) Healer has already used her divine points.  Yeah, you're just out of luck...  Having resurrected 6 people this season, she can't do any more. 

Hanni the Healer: "Now yes, the poor deceased may be a named character of Argrath's retinue, but see that party of a Stormbull, a duck and a Zorak Zoran morokanth over there?  Yeah, they "donated" 15,000L to get the Morokanth priority resurrected.  Tell the King "sorry"; had you showed up earlier and out-donated them, things might be different. I can't help you this season guys, try another Temple."

On 6/26/2020 at 3:23 AM, French Desperate WindChild said:

what proportion of people we know were resurrected ?

there is an inconsistency between the spell in rules (so easy) and the sources.

Note that I understand this inconsistency from a gp perspective. players may consider hard to lose a character.

I completely agree with you about this. Honestly we don't know what proportion of the population are resurrected.  How do the Chalana Arroys decide that anyhow?  I suspect there is a tacit bidding war of "donations" for a timely resurrection, unless there is a CA in the party (that is always how I play it, anyhow).  Are they bound to keep their resurrection magic free in case someone important is killed?  How important does that person need to be?  When it comes to player characters being killed and resurrected, I estimate about 25% are likely to get resurrected at least once in the character's lives.  And yes, there are a lot of discrepancies in the rules versus the literature (unless you happen to be Yanafal Tarnils fighting Humakt at Castle Blue, in which case, you resurrect every 30 seconds or so).

Edited by Darius West
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Argrath's enemies may have also used certain means to prevent them from being resurrected. I'm reading the Fortunate Succession now, and it talk about the Lunars having to "work to prevent our men from being trapped in foreign hells". 

Secondly, there is the potential possibility that some people... don't want to be resurrected? If someone dies a worthy death and feels a strong certainty that they will party forever with Orlanth, then their mortal ties might beckon less strongly. 

Lastly (for my post), there's probably an inherent uncertainty to healing and resurrecting. Sometimes the ritual just doesn't take. That's life.

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46 minutes ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

Secondly, there is the potential possibility that some people... don't want to be resurrected? If someone dies a worthy death and feels a strong certainty that they will party forever with Orlanth, then their mortal ties might beckon less strongly. 

The regular Resurrection spell seems to assume this - you have to beat up the spirit of the dead person to get the whole thing to work.

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