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Investing in Clan Creating & Feminine Story telling


HeartQuintessence

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12 hours ago, HeartQuintessence said:

The question aire, sure. I think coming up and creating a solid question aire might be worth it. For this clan, since we can spice it up with 3 times the questions.

One of the things you have to assess with a questionnaire is the value of extra questions (or the value of additional choices).  Essentially these are telling your clan's story of: "birth"; "childhood" including memories of innocence and blessings; what first disrupted "childhood"; how did you first deal with others, and otherness; what were the early squabbles and fights about; how did the gods figure into the stories and how did you interact with them; then how it all began to fall apart - who started it, who helped you, who fought you; and what happened when it got even worse - i.e. how did you survive, and who helped you do so, if anyone; and throughout, what factors led you to organize the clan as you do (e.g. do you have a chief, do you keep slaves, do you have a traditional council or an unusual one, etc.). 

What I like about questionnaires and multiple choice questions is that even if I designed the questions, I can throw the dice and get some new path through each time (or sometimes surprisingly similar ones).  All depends on what you want to do with it (run a game, write a story, or whatever), but they are interesting to put together and then edit so you feel like you get something worthwhile out of them.

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Every time someone starts a thread on the place of women in Gloranthan societies, and how to write adventures for female characters, it actually ends up being 95% about how to write non-combat-focused adventures.... really these two things are completely different, although arguably loosely connected due to the nature of female social roles in Heortling society.

For instance, reading up on the Glimmerstone Clan, I find myself interested in what's going on with all the people initiated in "the Black" (Maran Gor and Babeester Gor). Sure, you could increase the Vingan population to take up protection and muscle duties, but that would be like a normal Orlanthi clan where all the weaponthanes happen to be red-heads. I'm sure there are interesting consequences to explore when the clan's warriors include a more diverse mix of Dark/Violent Earth cultists... I'm not sure what it is yet, though. But I'm pretty certain a game where you play the clan's Babeester/Vingan soldier patrol is going to have some combat in it!

I'm also interested in how the extreme diversity of the clan is going to be maintained... I see for example a mix of Uz-friendly Earth priestesses, and Sun-worshipping cultists... how do they get along? Sure they might get along *now*, because forming a new clan might be better than the alternative of parting ways and being isolated... but is this going to hold up in the long run? The Earth way of "weaving communities together" might be tested to the extreme in the upcoming seasons, and that could be an interesting thread for a campaign. And that's not only in terms of adventures focused on keeping the peace inside the clan through various political and social and mythical maneuvering, but also in terms of addressing how this kind of clan fits in the overall Dragon Pass politico-religious landscape... are Yelmalites from a nearby Sun-Dome going to take offense of the situation, declaring the Glimmerstone sun-worshippers traitors because they accept and use Uz gifts? (and threatening to march over here to teach them!) There might be interesting consequences to the Glimmerstone merely existing.

Last, I think there's an opportunity to make the Glimmerstone clan naturally emerge with a truly innovative solution to an old problem, as is often the case when you put women in charge. For a totally lame example: instead of trying to reframe the plowing of the land into an "Earth-first" mythic act with different rites (but still effectively the same sowing method), or trying to avoid it entirely by only cultivating trees, how about a completely unique method of planting seeds? Remember, this clan has a whole bunch of special Maran-Gor magic, so maybe after a couple years they realize they can avoid the oxen pulling a plow to open the Earth and plant the seeds: they can instead scatter the seeds around the fields, and the Earthshakers will shake the soil until the seeds fall deep inside.... you don't need a man when you have a good vibrator, right?  The soil shaking might even make it more fertile...  this kind of innovation might not go unnoticed, and that squad of female weaponthanes PCs I was talking about earlier might have a lot more work to defend the clan's secrets.

Edited by lordabdul
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Thanks for your really interesting ideas:

I should preface the posting with : The Glimmerstone clan, actually moves out of dragon pass in 1625, in Sea Season of 1625, on the first day of Season season they've already packed up, and left. art of the reason they move out of the Pass is that it to them is 'too crowed' ( also the mystical pathway is leading them out of the  Dragon Pass. So they're connections to the socio-political things are probably going to deteriorate as they leave.) I mean it may not, but  I haven't figure out where their Tula is completely. It should be probably closer to the  Esorlia/Lunar Tarsh, type , but I've indicated that its a massive valley/plaetu, that's clearly got a foot in the Other world, and may just be emerging into Time properly ( so we have some 'Tardis' it's bigger on the inside going on.

It is possible, but the more I considered where the "Voria's Garden" - which will probably get a new name when the clan is founded. Does indeed lie outside of Dragonpass, and would probably be realitvely unknown until they establish themselves and start making trade agreements with other local communities.

I do think their warrior groups have and use Maran and Babeester Gor initiates and priestesses far more often. Because they took in so many, they probably didn't expect them to give up being who they were. Many of the intial founders became Vingan because they were Orlanthi- and that was how they delt with it, putting away their fertility of green Earth, to pick up Vingan's spear. The clan probably has a few groups of Maran and Babeester Gor, weaponthanes. The men are taught to hold their own against them.

The Earthshakers shaking the soil- I like that, but they couldn't do the entire fields on the Tula- that'd be so much - and the men need to do something 'useful'. I imagine that the fields that get the Earthshaker power- are the First field of year- maybe it how you 'open up' new fields after making their boundaries. The First tilling is the Earthshakers not plow, and they probably rotate years ( field 1, year 1= earth shaker, in year 2 its tilled with a plow, and in year 3 back to earth shakers.)

I imagine that most of the clan, balances  trying to take in women and men from other groups who may not be happy- a Nadan born and raised among Yelmites is going to struggle, with who and what they are in comparison to what their society tells them. You're example of of Uz-gifted Sun-worshipers being called traitors might be a good point, they might be called traitors, but then again. much of the clan is considered traitors in some fashion- they've contingents of Hsuchen among them (mostly horse via Redala, keeping their not-golden eyes strongly tied to their clan.)

 

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On 6/28/2020 at 9:03 PM, Leingod said:

I meant "bloodline" in the sense of "a sub-set of the clan recognizes a shared ancestor and so consider themselves more closely related to each other than to more distant members of the clan," which is basically just adding extra layers to the extended family model of the clan.

I like the similarities that you are finding between the fiction-kin (clan) and the natural-kin (blood), but I'm finding it easier to understand them as two parallel systems that overlap but do not integrate, with each having it's own domain: Fiction-kin is collective - clan, law, morality and responsibility, and a collective mythical history.  Natural kin is more personal, your personal physical and mythical inheritance and fate. It's a separation that seems to be maintained: my clan owe nothing to my grandfather from another clan, but I might have personal responsibility through natural-kin. And if my grandfather was a 7-foot beserker who slayed a bear god, then I'm likely to share some of those qualities, and some of that glory, and some of that shame in a more direct way than I would through fiction-kin.

Interesting that the gods seem not to have a clan or any fiction-kin, and seem to have only the obligations of natural-kin. Interesting too that Argrath loses his clan to fulfil his fate, and returned to claim the throne based on his bloodline, as his clan is forgotten.

Isn't fiction-kin actually in some way a denial, a reappropriation, of natural-kin? Isn't it about transferring allegiances, obligations, a willingess for self-sacrifice, from one set of connections (blood) to a new adopted set of relations (clan)? Isn't this why military units become brothers? And why initiation rites so often include a rebirth into a new family?

(Potentially on the border of being off topic.)

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17 minutes ago, Nick Underwood said:

Isn't this why military units become brothers? And why initiation rites so often include a rebirth into a new family?

(Potentially on the border of being off topic.)

I think that is in line though.  To really form a new clan, this is the wyter quest - it is creating both the mythic bonds (fiction-kin as you note), and the rituals of clan initiation, that will tie them together.  Otherwise they are likely to shatter under any new stress.

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1 hour ago, jajagappa said:

To really form a new clan, this is the wyter quest -

Absolutely onboard with the Wyter Quest...

10 hours ago, lordabdul said:

I'm also interested in how the extreme diversity of the clan is going to be maintained...

And the Glimmerstone Wyter sounds like it needs to be heavy with moon to balance the diversity and tie all those people together for the serious endeavour of clan making... Oh, wait:

 "Glimmerstone is given in courting a signal of serious intent..."

Glimmer Stone, unifying, balance... huh...? Moon rock wyter of LURV?

 

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On 7/1/2020 at 12:24 AM, Leingod said:

The way it's described in Sartar: Kingdom of Heroes is that the plowman "turns the Earth to meet the Air." So, in the Heortling view, you're uniting husband and wife to make the land fertile so that Ernalda's daughters (the crops) can be born and grow

Yes. I'd completely forgotten that story - which is another interpretation full of satisfying meatphor and meaning. And ploughing does, of course, literally aerate the soil. 

 

On 6/30/2020 at 9:25 PM, Bohemond said:

Another way to read plowing is not as the violent violation of the earth but as a response to the earth goddess 'opening her legs' to receive the male phallus/plow. So one could posit a ritual in which the priest(ess) asks the earth to receive the plow and the goddess responds by blessing the ritual.

And another. Although, doing Dad's work while he's away takes on a dimension I hadn't fully considered.

When a single story is open to so many incompatible interpretations - it's got to be a good story. 

 

On 7/1/2020 at 12:24 AM, Leingod said:

Also, there may be a plowing ritual in which the plower apologizes for breaking the earth open (the way Orlanthi men apologize for having to cut down Esrola in Earth Season). 

Something has to be happening here. It's an event so full of mythological meaning and the beginning of the agricultural life cycle that ends with the harvest you mention. Simultaneously the renewal of the food, and of the myths that sustain the community. Imagine the first day of ploughing in Sea Season, the ground is only beginning to dry, the mist still in the air.  It's early morning and a strong breeze enlivens the assembeled congregation. The earth lies still beneath her covering of spring grass - a maiden's anticipation. The Lunar priestess of the Glimmerstone clan steps forward with a ritual of unity and beginnings re-made as she repeats the blessings of the wedding night. The plough-women hesitates. Such an auspicious moment. Then she breaks the earth with heavy plough as the oxen begin their slow and easy march. The plough shines in the sillion, the mist gathers on the freshly turned earth, the crowd begin to sing and dance along the furrow at this moment of renewal.

(Hey, that sounds better than getting raped by your son!)

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On 7/1/2020 at 6:09 AM, John Biles said:

No plowing required, gives fruit every year, also a source of wood for you to some degree.

Reminds me of a story a Skanthi once told me:

I once see a Blini-man with oxen and plough:

-- What you doing? I asks. 

-- Ploughing the land, says he. 

--  And just what would you go ploughing the land for? I asks. 

-- Grow some oats, he tells me. 

-- Our Lady's Afterbirth! Why would you go specially growing oats? 

-- Gotta feed the oxen something. 

-- Feeding Oxen!! What in Ernalda's Garden would you be feeding oxen for? 

And the Bilini-man, he looks me right in the eye, all superior like he never did wear no white shirt, and he says: "Well I'm not going to pull the plough me-self, am I?!" 

Ain't no compr'ending a Bilini-man. 

(Apparently it's funny if you're Skanthi)

(Apparently Skanthi are Cornish too) 

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2 hours ago, Nick Underwood said:

Absolutely onboard with the Wyter Quest...

And the Glimmerstone Wyter sounds like it needs to be heavy with moon to balance the diversity and tie all those people together for the serious endeavour of clan making... Oh, wait:

 "Glimmerstone is given in courting a signal of serious intent..."

Glimmer Stone, unifying, balance... huh...? Moon rock wyter of LURV?

 

 Actually She is a White Lioness ( so she may  have eyes of Glimmerstone, or her tail tip, eyes and claws are made of the lumouns stone).

 

1 hour ago, Nick Underwood said:

 

Yes. I'd completely forgotten that story - which is another interpretation full of satisfying meatphor and meaning. And ploughing does, of course, literally aerate the soil. 

 

And another. Although, doing Dad's work while he's away takes on a dimension I hadn't fully considered.

When a single story is open to so many incompatible interpretations - it's got to be a good story. 

 

Something has to be happening here. It's an event so full of mythological meaning and the beginning of the agricultural life cycle that ends with the harvest you mention. Simultaneously the renewal of the food, and of the myths that sustain the community. Imagine the first day of ploughing in Sea Season, the ground is only beginning to dry, the mist still in the air.  It's early morning and a strong breeze enlivens the assembeled congregation. The earth lies still beneath her covering of spring grass - a maiden's anticipation. The Lunar priestess of the Glimmerstone clan steps forward with a ritual of unity and beginnings re-made as she repeats the blessings of the wedding night. The plough-women hesitates. Such an auspicious moment. Then she breaks the earth with heavy plough as the oxen begin their slow and easy march. The plough shines in the sillion, the mist gathers on the freshly turned earth, the crowd begin to sing and dance along the furrow at this moment of renewal.

(Hey, that sounds better than getting raped by your son!)

So much better, hmm the Lunar Priestess (of the white moon? Not the red moon, that threatens all with consumption and obliteration). I can see Lunar and Earth Priestess working on concernt with Air and Fire Priests work to turn the earth and make the sun beat down upon it where Heler's waters feed it.

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7 minutes ago, HeartQuintessence said:

So much better, hmm the Lunar Priestess (of the white moon? Not the red moon, that threatens all with consumption and obliteration).

Seems to me, your Lunar founder is your unifying principle that allows you to balance the disparate elements of your clan. If that tradition continues to exist, Moon could replace Barntar in re-unifying Air and Earth. 

Should we conflate Sedeyna with the horrors of the Red Empire? When the White Moon comes, there will be peace. Perhaps more than we can bear...

Edited by Nick Underwood
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8 hours ago, HeartQuintessence said:

I haven't figure out where their Tula is completely. It should be probably closer to the  Esorlia/Lunar Tarsh, type , but I've indicated that its a massive valley/plaetu, that's clearly got a foot in the Other world, and may just be emerging into Time properly ( so we have some 'Tardis' it's bigger on the inside going on.

Yeah that's one thing I didn't mention but I couldn't see much info about where the clan was located geographically... mmh, it's an interesting thought that, instead of heroquesting for a spirit or a gift or an artifact or whatever, the founders of the Glimmerstone clan might have heroquest for a place.

Like, maybe they go back to the God Time to "discover" a spot that was spared when the Spike exploded or something... maybe the heroquest actually involves deflecting Spike debris or something, and actually making that place be spared... and because this place wasn't originally supposed to survive all the way through Time, it can't totally exist in Time because there's not enough place for it there, and that's how you get this "Tardis effect".

It might even be an ongoing thing, because that kind of heroquest would require a lot of magical and mythical prowess, so they might start with a small valley somewhere at the edge of Beast Valley or whatever, and over the span of a few years, their repeated heroquesting "saves" more and more of the place, so as the clan grows, the "extra dimensional" part of the tula also grows. It's super dangerous because failing the yearly heroquest might "snap the place back", effectively destroying a whole chunk of the tula, snapping it out of existence. It might also, over time, attract some undesirable spirit and divine attention, because that's somewhat Compromise-breaking. That would be devastating for the clan. So that's a dangerous gamble, but maybe worth it because the rest of the year most people can't find your tula unless they follow the correct path ("turn left after the big rock, go under the tree arch, close your eyes, say the prayer, walk backwards, turn, open your eyes, boom, you're there", or some other such fae-like shenanigan).

Quote

The Earthshakers shaking the soil- I like that, but they couldn't do the entire fields on the Tula- that'd be so much

...unless they go outside of the "Tardis lands" (back to the "real world") and do their magic there. Affecting 1 hectare of land "outside", at specific "land nodes", might affect 5 hectares "inside". That would also apply to other land or area based magic, like blessing crops. It might be too over-powered, but it's possibly balanced by the harsh difficulty of maintaining this extra-dimensional land.

But yes, all your points on this topic are good.

When the Earthshakers do the first field of the year, I wonder what kind of attention they attract? Depending on where the clan is, they could attract dinosaurs, so there might be a Sea Season festival featuring those big cuddly guys (riding games? slides for the kids?). Now that I think of it, could the clan's weaponthanes include a dinosaur cavalry?

Edited by lordabdul
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16 hours ago, lordabdul said:

Yeah that's one thing I didn't mention but I couldn't see much info about where the clan was located geographically... mmh, it's an interesting thought that, instead of heroquesting for a spirit or a gift or an artifact or whatever, the founders of the Glimmerstone clan might have heroquest for a place.

Like, maybe they go back to the God Time to "discover" a spot that was spared when the Spike exploded or something... maybe the heroquest actually involves deflecting Spike debris or something, and actually making that place be spared... and because this place wasn't originally supposed to survive all the way through Time, it can't totally exist in Time because there's not enough place for it there, and that's how you get this "Tardis effect".

It might even be an ongoing thing, because that kind of heroquest would require a lot of magical and mythical prowess, so they might start with a small valley somewhere at the edge of Beast Valley or whatever, and over the span of a few years, their repeated heroquesting "saves" more and more of the place, so as the clan grows, the "extra dimensional" part of the tula also grows. It's super dangerous because failing the yearly heroquest might "snap the place back", effectively destroying a whole chunk of the tula, snapping it out of existence. It might also, over time, attract some undesirable spirit and divine attention, because that's somewhat Compromise-breaking. That would be devastating for the clan. So that's a dangerous gamble, but maybe worth it because the rest of the year most people can't find your tula unless they follow the correct path ("turn left after the big rock, go under the tree arch, close your eyes, say the prayer, walk backwards, turn, open your eyes, boom, you're there", or some other such fae-like shenanigan).

...unless they go outside of the "Tardis lands" (back to the "real world") and do their magic there. Affecting 1 hectare of land "outside", at specific "land nodes", might affect 5 hectares "inside". That would also apply to other land or area based magic, like blessing crops. It might be too over-powered, but it's possibly balanced by the harsh difficulty of maintaining this extra-dimensional land.

But yes, all your points on this topic are good.

When the Earthshakers do the first field of the year, I wonder what kind of attention they attract? Depending on where the clan is, they could attract dinosaurs, so there might be a Sea Season festival featuring those big cuddly guys (riding games? slides for the kids?). Now that I think of it, could the clan's weaponthanes include a dinosaur cavalry?

Now its question of colating these many many ideas:

I think the problem with the Tardis effect as you've said is the potential to 'break' the space they live in., a failed heroquest, could undo years and years of work. And I don't know if they'd take that risk. I think they's solidify their land as much as possible only undergoing the heroquest for more land expansion... when it was nessacery.

I guess after reading the Imperial Handbook, I loved the Anime-inspired visuals, but I was like new clan like this couldn't support the trade network and city building--- nessacery evoke those vibes.

But now I wonder, if their little Tula has pre-built structures on it. If it was used  before the Dawn  in the Lesser and Greater Darknesses, and then  got sort of disconnected from the world, and is only being slowly  brought back through their heroquesting.   But I think this point above might be too much.

 I imagine their Heroquest, has these women, defending their lands with all the powers at their disposal, their ancestresses known in name and deed, but I should find out what the Spike explosion is and how it effect the world, before I can say these three sisters who'd been married off some how defend lands that are not 'theirs'.

Can these women exist when the Spike explodes? Or is that not a possiblity? My knowledge of Gloranthan time and events is bery wobbly (I have the source book and the Lunar handbooks ( as 'non current cannon as they can be, I even have Thunder Rebels and Storm Tribe, to flesh out my knowlege.)
Thaenya Suren Estara  - I feel like she might be a daughter of the Red Goddess, not a famous one, but just one of the consequential ones from all her flings, tying the lunar Contingent into the blood that so plauges the Orlanthi and Grazelanders, but like the Moon herself, they all balance each other.
 Eneela Ring-Mother  - Grazelander horse breeder, (though they wouldn't have been grazelanders at the time of the spike, I expect she'd been descendant of Yelm's Bright Court maybe a daughter of Yelm's wife, or a handmaiden.)
Irvarnestra The Shepard - The standard Orlanthi steadwife,Ernalda worshiping and scary with a spoon.

But honestly I think they current memebers of The Glimmerstone Clan, do 'fix' their Tula slowly, bringing it back into the world, though it must keep some of its  tardis-esque qualities. I do feel like the way to the lands, are weirdly 'implausible'.  Like(and I'll write about the journey in the story). They're following Koza Rams (big golden/yellow fleexced ones with bronze hooves), and a Lioness who seems to be hunting them (they don't realize that she's actually stalking the Rams).


I think the other problem is that Lunar contingent of the clan will have to change- they're literally away from much of their source of power(in a sense), and probably over the last 10 years have some syncretism going on.

I don't know if any of this makes any real sense, as my knowledge of Glorantha is... sparse.
 Am I just trying to do too much, too quickly and its a watery mess, because of it? I mean I wanted Orlanthi, but not Orlanthi in the Dragon Pass, I didn't want the Lunar empire to be 'evil', in their eyes (because its really cool, but yeah a soul eating bat as your mascot doesn't say 'good guys' persay). And the grazelanders are neat, but hear so little about them.     Maybe my problem was trying to tie them together as a clan, where their elements are so different. But forging a new solid whole to survive is the point of a clan isn't it?

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On 6/30/2020 at 12:31 PM, Bohemond said:

But if multiple clans traditionally marry amongst themselves using female exogamy, what will happen within a few generations is that the clans are all woven together. I'm in Bloodline A. My sister marries out of the Bluerock Clan into the Greenrock clan. A generation later, her Greenrock daughter marries into Bloodline B of the Bluerocks. That means that My grandson is now a member of Bloodline B but has ties to me through his mother. So Bloodline A and Bloodline B are now cousins. Over time the Bloodlines are going to be pretty tight, with everyone's aunt being someone else's cousins. 

I love this discussion. It should be noted that this might be a cultural solution to a lot of potential conflict problems. If you can find a family tie between clans, it might result in an inter-clan dispute being resolved more "peacefully" than otherwise. 

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On 6/25/2020 at 8:17 PM, HeartQuintessence said:

So, it's occurred to me that Women in Glorantha have a lot of lee way in some respects in what they do. And the more I think on it, the more I think about creating a Glorantha supplement, website, blog (?) (maybe just a google document) called "The Hearth" - Adventures for Women, (for RuneQuest  & HeroQuest), specifically, focusing on  creating active  scenario ideas and fiction for female characters  (and all that encompass that in Glorantha).

Here's where I plug the excellent Resurrection Ertugrul TV Series, although some people might be tired of me praising it.

Although it is 13th century Turks, it has a lot of principles for clans that could easily apply to Glorantha.

The men go off to war, leaving the women and children behind, but it is the women who defend the clan if it is attacked while the men are away. So, women are martial and are trained to fight.

The men are the mind of the clan, but the women are its soul.

Women are crafters, making much of the trade goods that the clan then sells.

Women are midwives and men are not present at births, except for the doctor, who could easily be a woman.

Midwives double up as healers.

When the men leave for war, the women say a charm to protect them and ensure their safe return.

Women raise the children and keep them safe, they keep the clan together and keep everyone strong, in case the men never come back.

If you put on a layer of mythology, telling stories about what the powerful women of the clan did, or what the mythical women did, then it would fit even better.

Simon Phipp - Caldmore Chameleon - Wallowing in my elitism since 1982. Many Systems, One Family. Just a fanboy. 

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Reasonable- also everyone  recommend Resurrection Ertugrul... hopefully I can find an subbed version.

But back to The idea of clan creation from an in universe perspective.

The year is 1625, as the Glimmer clan is leaving they watch the Dragonrise--- they watch as the Lunar Empire is a delt a bad blow. Surely the Lunar continigent with the group who's been with them for a decade has some feelings about this. THey've basically been left alone with little to no contact with other Lunar folks because- they're living with a bunch of Orlanthi.

How does this effect the Heroquest for the Wyter.. The White Lioness wyter is /white/ giving her a tie in some way to the White Moon of PEace (I think). Though I do wonder if the New Immortal/God, of Glamour maybe  buffing her appearance a little, to help the clan cement itself as something 'bigger' feeling.

 

 

The more I started to think about exogamy, how would the clan because they're living in this weirdly temporal/physical valley manage to marry in or out of other groups. They're tiny (probably less than 100 people, since they were on borrowed land).

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5 hours ago, HeartQuintessence said:

how would the clan because they're living in this weirdly temporal/physical valley manage to marry in or out of other groups.

If they've come together from three largely distinct groups (aka "bloodlines"), then these bloodlines can form "mini" clans and they would function as a triaty. Bloodline A will only marry from Bloodline B.  Bloodline B will only marry from Bloodine C.  Bloodline C will only marry from Bloodline A.  Choose whether its the bride or groom that marries into the other bloodline, but only one, not both.  Kinship will become tight over time, but it will avoid immediate cousin marriages.

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17 hours ago, jajagappa said:

If they've come together from three largely distinct groups (aka "bloodlines"), then these bloodlines can form "mini" clans and they would function as a triaty. Bloodline A will only marry from Bloodline B.  Bloodline B will only marry from Bloodine C.  Bloodline C will only marry from Bloodline A.  Choose whether its the bride or groom that marries into the other bloodline, but only one, not both.  Kinship will become tight over time, but it will avoid immediate cousin marriages.

The only problem with marrying one way into a bloodline is that it dictates who can marry whom. And defiantely cuts off some avenues of intermingling.
 If blood A only marries from Bloodline B, then at some point B  will have no one else avaiable, and B->C same thing . Which will eventually create a bottle neck. But is there a way to work an Esrolian House style system in? Considering that some of these Orlanthi maybe Esrolian by birth?

Admitedly Esrolia relies on its cities, much like the Lunar groups, to help to build upon these Houses and  the like, which is something a small clan can't actually do. So I am still struggling with that. OR this whole Triarty thing, is just making my head hurt.

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1 hour ago, HeartQuintessence said:

The only problem with marrying one way into a bloodline is that it dictates who can marry whom. And defiantely cuts off some avenues of intermingling.

These are among the choices the clan must make!  Is this a path chosen for a generation while the clan establishes itself until they feel they can extend outwards?

1 hour ago, HeartQuintessence said:

But is there a way to work an Esrolian House style system in? Considering that some of these Orlanthi maybe Esrolian by birth?

The Esrolian house system really isn't any different.  The Esrolian houses are clans, they are exogamous, and they marry their men into other Esrolian houses to establish broader relations and more ties.  Now in a city like Nochet, there are a lot of clans to choose from, though generally they will marry with those clans that are allies or friends, or that offer new avenues to wealth.

1 hour ago, HeartQuintessence said:

OR this whole Triarty thing, is just making my head hurt.

The ultimate questions for any clan are: how do you avoid incest or lineages that simply become so in-bred that they do not cooperate with any other non-kin?  And, how do you determine who is responsible for the actions of someone in the clan? And, among which family are the children raised?

The Triaty is fairly simple, but it is exclusive.  It creates a web of interconnection among the clans (or bloodlines), but keeps any intermarriage with "close" kin off for 3 generations.

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13 hours ago, HeartQuintessence said:

The only problem with marrying one way into a bloodline is that it dictates who can marry whom. And defiantely cuts off some avenues of intermingling.
 If blood A only marries from Bloodline B, then at some point B  will have no one else avaiable, and B->C same thing . Which will eventually create a bottle neck. But is there a way to work an Esrolian House style system in? Considering that some of these Orlanthi maybe Esrolian by birth?

Admitedly Esrolia relies on its cities, much like the Lunar groups, to help to build upon these Houses and  the like, which is something a small clan can't actually do. So I am still struggling with that. OR this whole Triarty thing, is just making my head hurt.

I'm not sure what timeframe you're working with here, but these things are unlikely to become a problem within the first couple of generations. And by that time they've likely found some external marriage partners -OR- the clan has grown so large that some part of it leaves through fission and so becomes a new, viable marriage partner! (And if they haven't? QUESTING TIME! Send your best and brightest out on a Wooing Journey. ;) )

It should be noted that in real life, the typical arrangement is not a triaty, but a relationship between two exogamous groups, called a moiety. So different configurations are perfectly viable... and riddled with complications. 

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I was going to post this yesterday, but forgot: 

In terms of pro-social questlines and problems - and I know this is going to sound daft - I got to thinking about the stuff my nephew and niece watches on TV. 

PJ Masks has dozens of episodes emphasizing the importance of utilizing the skills and powers of all the groups' members together to synergize, and how striking out alone is doomed to fail, including lessons about irresponsibility, overconfidence, jealousy, etc. While it is series about child superheroes, it is perhaps just as much a series about how to do consensus decisions (and how difficult consensus governance can be).

Vampirina has story upon story humorously bridging the gap between immigrants and locals, and working to create understanding between them, and how both newcomers and locals can benefit from each other and integrate, and how personal efforts, dedication and trust is needed to make this happen, but it is worth it in the end, even if the immigrant is initially seen as repulsive, horrific and a literal monster from the cultural view of the natives (make me think of trolls and humans in Glorantha. Vampirina is clearly an AA adept, y'all). There's for example one episode where Vampirina has to juggle her grandparents' desire to have a traditional Vampire celebration, while also having humans attending and not having them have a bad time. Hilarity ensues - but honestly it's kind of a great display of trying to integrate different groups into the same ritual without diluting the meaning or potency of the ritual. Pretty good Glorantha-fodder.

Paw Patrol exhibits the importance of teamwork as above, and also the rewarding nature of doing one's duties well, with situations specifically designed to make each specialist come off as uniquely useful. (It's also the story of how Chase is a f***** brown-noser, but that might just be me). Additionally, it also emphasises, though interaction with the civilian population, how the work of the pups is directly beneficial for the community they are sworn to help (an element often lacking in most other "hero"-themed fiction, come to think of it.). 

Dora the Explorer is honestly like a modern version of the Ashlad ("Boots"), which highlights the importance of treating the people one meet on one's journeys with respect and fairness, and how this will come around and help you in the end. Especially if these journeys are into trippy, otherworldly fairytale landscapes. These are basically mini-heroquests, where the focus is on applying the correct aid to each encounter, so that their boons may be granted in order to fulfill the quest at the end. Kindness, honesty, cleverness (and sometimes subterfuge) are the keys to victory here. Childlike innocence can be replaced with a more mature sense of "strength of character" for that touch of virtue ethics when it comes to protagonists, for example. Maybe your character isn't as innocent as Dora, but a principled Issarite, empathetic Chalanite, or incorruptible Ernaldan does the trick too.

 

--- Now, I know that some of this might come off as slightly condescending, but I truly do not intend it to be. I've given this some thought, and I sadly can't think of more "adult" examples for these kinds of narratives. I know real events that reflects the lessons above, but not a whole lot of games or blockbusters, as it were. And yet I think they can be made exciting and high-stakes, and dare I say, filled with enthusiasm and wonder in addition to thrill and peril, of course (and probably a good deal of frustration because Harmony Is Hard).

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23 minutes ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

In terms of pro-social questlines and problems - and I know this is going to sound daft - I got to thinking about the stuff my nephew and niece watches on TV.

It's not so daft: those kid shows have become quite good at having action but not combat. A GM can learn from these. Another example is Transformers: Rescue Bots.

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  • 1 year later...
On 7/4/2020 at 2:59 PM, HeartQuintessence said:

The more I started to think about exogamy, how would the clan because they're living in this weirdly temporal/physical valley manage to marry in or out of other groups. They're tiny (probably less than 100 people, since they were on borrowed land).

Not really a customary sort of number for any sort of clan, especially if you go with the 'shrine size' rule-of-thumb for specialised theistic deities.  (Just one, mind you, much less multiple such!)  In "standard model" Glorantha they'd be some refugees looking to be adopted into a larger clan.  Or given the nature of the Hero Wars times we're in, merging with some equally devastated refugees to form an entirely new one.  But of course, Your Glorantha Will Vary as always applies.

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On 7/3/2020 at 12:46 PM, HeartQuintessence said:

I mean I wanted Orlanthi, but not Orlanthi in the Dragon Pass, I didn't want the Lunar empire to be 'evil', in their eyes (because its really cool, but yeah a soul eating bat as your mascot doesn't say 'good guys' persay).

Not all the Sartarites see the LE as 'evil'.  Look at the number of people who cooperated with them, or even converted to Lunar cults.  Some of them no doubt for venal reasons, but surely not as universally so as is sometimes presented from the "rebel-eye view" (or victor's justice) perspective.  And in Esrolia I think that's even more true.  We're haggling now who're the bigger patriarchal idiots, the Storm ones or the Sky ones!

On 7/3/2020 at 12:46 PM, HeartQuintessence said:

And the grazelanders are neat, but hear so little about them.

Unless your tula is Grazelands-adjacent (as one of the suggested options was, but then they're not also with ready access to Esrolia -- at least not by any Euclidean reckoning -- or a large, coherent group of Grazer exiles, I struggle to picture them maintaining such traditions intact.  Though with animism, as long as you have one shaman, you can't be counted out!

On 7/3/2020 at 12:46 PM, HeartQuintessence said:

Maybe my problem was trying to tie them together as a clan, where their elements are so different. But forging a new solid whole to survive is the point of a clan isn't it?

Right, but the new solid whole should feel like a solid whole.  If it's more like a Vulgate-style run-on laundry list of all the different things it consists of, it seems less like that.

Stop me if you've heard this one before, but what I'd do is to keep all the ideas and elements, but space them out a bit.  Make your a bit clan bigger, so there's at least a certain cohort of people per funky strange element.  Turn them into a tribe, with some of the ideas farmed out to either other refugees/exiles, or with Sartarite (or either Esrolian or Grazer, depending which you go with as your other locals) neighbours they can join with, or at form some sort of accommodation with.  Spread some of them out in time;  if everything happens in backstory, then the narrative proper might either be a little anticlimactic, or risk jumping the shark to top it.

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