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Was Argrath a hero or a villain?


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32 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

I believe it means that those who reach Hero status have gained the Mastery Rune.  Those who reach God status have gained the Infinity Rune.

Thanks. So back in RQ2, the "end game that's hard to achieve" was getting to Rune Lord level.... is Hero level the new "end game that's hard to achieve" thing in RQG? I wonder if there are cool mechanics tied to the Mastery/Fate/Infinity/etc. Runes.

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It is interesting how quickly people on these forums quickly descend into the worst excesses and mistakes of the God Learners in their assumptions about how mythology works.

He was both. I thought that was pretty intentional on Greg's part?

Glorantha has lots of examples of good Illumination. Daruda was a great teacher who achieved union with Nothing and then re-entered the world in order to share his bliss with those who needed it.

11 minutes ago, lordabdul said:

So back in RQ2, the "end game that's hard to achieve" was getting to Rune Lord level....

In theory, back in RQ2 getting to Hero/God level was the end game of the ever promised HeroQuest book (since these steps were actually laid out way back in WB&RM).  Just never got there (and, yes, getting to Rune Lord took time).

Will be interesting to see what the mechanics are, though.

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2 hours ago, The God Learner said:

I seem to remember reading somewhere that Harrek was based on Harald Hardrada.

 

Harrek feels to me a lot like Conan, seen from the outside instead of the inside.  (Except Conan wouldn't skin and wear a god)

He's very much 'takes care of his followers, everyone else is prey' in attitude.

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On 7/8/2020 at 3:37 PM, davecake said:

They can be overruled by a senior priest, which for Orlanthi usually includes the Clan Chief, or tribal King - and no, suspecting the chief or king of being an Illuminate is NOT enough to over rule them.. And of course there is the practical difficulty of enforcing it. Arkat, for example, would almost certainly kill anyone who tried. 

I think most Orlanthi priests have a great deal more autonomy over their own temple than that.  If they say "That person is an illuminate and is not welcome here again for that reason". And people say "Why do you think that", and the priest says, "They often behave in ways that are against the teachings of Orlanth, but they never attract spirits of retribution, and this is known to be a sing of the illuminate".  Who is going to argue with that?  Ultimately a priest has control over any temple they own, and if they are beholden, they can bring their accusation before the relevant authorities and lay it at the illuminate's feet.  Also, Arkat hated illuminates and would all but certainly kill them.

On 7/8/2020 at 3:37 PM, davecake said:

Arkat hates Dark side Illuminates, but likes some others, and unfortunately there is no reliable way to tell which is which. And the Arkat cult may be protecting certain heroquest paths, but they are a tiny minority of a tiny minority - by the time some Illuminate outside their own ranks is notable enough for the Arkat cult to notice, they are likely also too powerful for them to do much about it.

Arguably Arkat IS a dark illuminate.  The whole Shadow Empire?  A bit of a give-away?  There is no light and dark side to illumination.  That sort of binary thinking is the very sort of thing that illumination makes a mockery of.  What is tangible is notions of abuse of power.  You can point to abuse of power and say "you did this, and now you must pay".  The Arkati who guard the Hero Plane exist to prevent God Learner type abuse.  They are like armed African game wardens who prevent poachers and protect the mythic environment from further human depredation.

On 7/8/2020 at 3:37 PM, davecake said:

Arkat cult? They get their butts kicked by the God Learners, badly. They entirely fail to notice, or are able to do nothing about, a resurgence of troubling Illumination use by the later God Learners. They get repressed, along with several other forms of Illumination, by the Dara Happans, probably all but wiped out across Peloria, before Arkat-hostile forms of Illumination make a resurgence with the Lunars. They survive in little more than a few scattered and secretive schools almost everywhere outside Ralios - and inside Ralios they are a fragmented squabbling bunch. 

They are repressed, but never completely eradicated, and they gradually form a resurgence.  The most powerful of the Arkati set up shop in the Hero Plane to prevent further God Learnerism.  I suspect the Lunars would confront them now and again, but have side-stepped them where possible by creating their own new myths.  Given that Mularik Iron-Eye (himself an Arkati sorcerer) identifies Argrath as the "real" second coming of Arkat, one might assume that despite his knowledge of God Learnerism, that Argrath sees value in not abusing the system.

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On 7/8/2020 at 8:07 AM, John Biles said:

The whole essence of what Arkat did revolved around him getting initiated, then running off and doing whatever he wanted, namely murder.

Waging war against an insidious chaotic interloper theist cult that is spreading disease and then curing it as a way of spreading  their cult is more than justified if you are a local Malkioni of any stripe imo.  Murder?  It isn't a crime if you have legal sanction to carry it out.

On 7/8/2020 at 8:07 AM, John Biles said:

The Arkati aren't all-present and if they were, they would kill people like Argath, which they don't.  Rather, they're a broken shell, divided into quarreling groups that hate each other too.   And cults don't have telephones and the internet.  Even if you're well known in one town, you won't be in another.  

The true Arkati presently mainly operate in the Hero Plane, preventing abuse of hero quest paths in the god learner fashion.  There are plenty of cults of Arkat in and around Safelster Lake but they aren't carrying the true legacy of Arkat; they are just making it up as they go along, worshiping aspects of Arkat that are all hoaxes.  The True Arkat will wage war against the abuses of the illuminates, and that is Argrath and his war on the Lunars (who are a second Empire of Illuminates).

On 7/8/2020 at 8:07 AM, John Biles said:

Illuminates are no longer bound by society and cults.  That's the whole point of illumination.  They can still be literally hunted down and killed but pretty much all the illuminates we see as major figures in Glorantha go where they want and do what they want and kick the gods down the stairs.  

That is both true and false.  While it is true that illuminates now have powers that protect them from the cultural controls of their deities, those very powers and the avoidance of, for example, spirits of retribution, now become proof of their illumination.  The fact is, nobody has any duty to trust or like illuminates, and why wouldn't they go to some effort to kill them where they find them?  Certainly this is what the Arkati such as Mularik Iron-Eye do with rogue illuminates they come across.

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5 minutes ago, Darius West said:

Mularik Iron-Eye (himself an Arkati sorcerer) identifies Argrath as the "real" second coming of Arkat,

The known limits of their bromance make this a really useful opening to distinguish "Arkat" as a magical technology from "Arkat" as personal allegiance. Anyone with motive and opportunity can become an arkat technician by incorporating that methodology into the personal practice. Some people will also nourish a personal relationship with the historical figure and his messianic agenda. Some push it as far as they can in both directions. Others stay mostly on one side of the venn diagram or the other.

IMG most people pursuing "arkat" experience pursue it as a vanilla hero cult. This is your guy. You're a fan. You study his adventures and try to apply the lessons to get ahead in life. There are compensations. Your cult has friends and enemies. When you see an opportunity to advance the cult's this-world goals, you contribute your resources and participate. There are many cults.

The technicians have what we might call a more explicitly sorcerous approach to the material. The Stygians went places and encoded their conclusions in ways we can exploit now to get what we want. The persistence of a historical Arkat is irrelevant. This ultimately points toward a state of consciousness that interacts with the better documented "illumination" you talk about here.

Mularik can be a technician who shuffles the letters to see that Argrath maps onto the historical Arkat and doesn't care. A hero cultist would have a conversion experience (model with passions) or some other spiritual moment: this is the guy we were promised. A technician might see a competitor, potential ally, catspaw, whatever depending on the circumstances. In my experience many technicians would view a reincarnated Arkat Actual as a rival and a threat. They're territorial people.

So Mularik one day concludes that the guy he's been hanging out with is the guy thousands of people back home have been praying a thousand years to see. He doesn't fall down on his knees and cry. He waves for the check. They're no longer pals. It's on. Struggle of the Magicians. Five Arkats, you say? There Can Be Only One in the end.

Now it gets complicated because at the highest levels the ambitions of the cult and the most impeccable technicians converge again. The cult is an easy thing for the technicians to control. And as the formative experience for many technicians, the cult will shape their attitudes and agendas. Then these "true arkati" can coopt, divert or otherwise interfere with the rest. I think this is where a lot of the reportage around shadowy figures guarding key HQ nodes comes from. The problem is when they get what they want in a form they weren't expecting. 

There's a lot of history outsiders don't see about how the Stygians responded to the Seshnegite threat and ultimately the God Learner Empire gave them what they wanted all along. Some people say that because that history is invisible, it must be sad propaganda losers come up with to feel better: the God Learners ruled the world for centuries, Paslac is a footnote and that's that. I welcome compelling evidence either way but can't help but notice that whenever I encounter resistance on a key HQ node the challenger usually looks, acts or smells more than a little like me in pancake makeup. It's the only place I really see the back of my own head.

But I'm just a technician, no dog in the fight.

 

 

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On 7/10/2020 at 11:10 PM, The God Learner said:

I seem to remember reading somewhere that Harrek was based on Harald Hardrada.

Yep, I read it too ... it was in RuneQuest Con Compendium : Interviews p72 in Nick Brooke's Cultural Exchange (All the interviews are an "must be read")

On 7/11/2020 at 1:42 AM, John Biles said:

Harrek feels to me a lot like Conan, seen from the outside instead of the inside.  (Except Conan wouldn't skin and wear a god)

He's very much 'takes care of his followers, everyone else is prey' in attitude.

Yep, Nick Brooke also state That Harrek is Conan but Greg reply that he is more Harald Hardrada but the Joke start when Nick's expose is theory that Pharaoh might be a blue vadeli or John Carter, Warlord of Mars 🤣

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48 minutes ago, MJ Sadique said:

Greg reply that he is more Harald Hardrada

Which makes a lot of sense as the Wolf Pirates are then the Varangian Guard with their role being to protect Argrath (the emperor).

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21 hours ago, Darius West said:

I think most Orlanthi priests have a great deal more autonomy over their own temple than that.  If they say "That person is an illuminate and is not welcome here again for that reason".

Please explain how you imagine that conversation going if they are trying to exclude, say, Argrath or one of his close supporters. Or a senior warlock of the SMU. Or the Tribal King, for that matter, who actually outranks the Storm Voices etc and probably physically controls access to the holy site. 

21 hours ago, Darius West said:

And people say "Why do you think that", and the priest says, "They often behave in ways that are against the teachings of Orlanth, but they never attract spirits of retribution, and this is known to be a sing of the illuminate".  Who is going to argue with that?

"But I am your chief, and I tell you that these are the true teachings of Orlanth. I am not bothered by the spirits of retribution because I am honourable and righteous. Now leave or face my wrath." *casts Command Priest*

(you seem to have entirely missed that the Orlanth Rex was introduced just to make sure the rulers out rank the priests in these situations - though admittedly it was originally to stop the priests introducing the mysticism stuff (in EWF), they didn't really anticipate centuries later a king wanting to make everyone mystics largely for strategic reasons)

21 hours ago, Darius West said:

Also, Arkat hated illuminates and would all but certainly kill them.

Arkat hated Nysalor/Gbaji, and largely because of Chaos. He absolutely did not hate Illuminates or want to kill them, considering many of his followers were actually Illuminated, and they consider themselves the 'epitome of the Light Side of Illumination'. Literally, read the section about Arkat on pg 89 of Cults of Terror, and if you don't believe it is essentially correct, then you are talking about an alternate Glorantha. Which you usually are on this topic, but you should acknowledge it.

21 hours ago, Darius West said:

Arguably Arkat IS a dark illuminate.  The whole Shadow Empire?  A bit of a give-away?  There is no light and dark side to illumination.  

That is not how the Dark and Light side works, as they are defined on page 89 of Cults of Terror. If you deny anything written there is true (such as the Light and Dark Sides), it's an alternate Glorantha, or at least one that uses completely different terminology and mostly is at odds with what Greg, and others, have written about it. This is not a way to encourage a useful discussion. 

21 hours ago, Darius West said:

They are repressed, but never completely eradicated, and they gradually form a resurgence. 

Except there being no evidence of a resurgence outside Ralios I know of. Certainly they don't seem to have inconvenienced the Nysaloran resurgence under the Lunars in the least. Nor do they seem to interfere when an Imperial revival of Illumination drives the EWF out of Peloria, or indeed, at any point in history after the Autarchy is defeated by the God Learners. 

So, what evidence of this resurgence is there outside Ralios? (and of course, in Ralios they are a squabbling bunch more opposed to each other than anything else)

22 hours ago, Darius West said:

Given that Mularik Iron-Eye (himself an Arkati sorcerer) identifies Argrath as the "real" second coming of Arkat, one might assume that despite his knowledge of God Learnerism, that Argrath sees value in not abusing the system.

Argrath sees value in not abusing the system, sure, but what is abuse? An Illuminate makes their own decision as to what constitutes abuse. Argrath seems, largely, to have decided that Chaos is abuse, but a lot of other fairly morally dubious things are merely expedient. Including bringing back Sheng whose mystic path is based in large part on slavery and torture. And even on Chaos, Argrath seems fairly flexible compared to the average Orlanthi (given he allies to Seven Mothers cultists like the Fazzurites as needed). 

21 hours ago, Darius West said:

While it is true that illuminates now have powers that protect them from the cultural controls of their deities, those very powers and the avoidance of, for example, spirits of retribution, now become proof of their illumination. 

Only if they use them in an abusive way. Who is going to denounce a Larnsting for knowing too much movement magic? A warlock for bringing multiple cults together in the SMU? Someone for using dragon magic to save the clan from a dragon? An Illuminate doesn't have to do anything. 

The power of cultural control for an Illuminate becomes other people, rather than the gods. And the Illuminate is just as able to wield that power as anyone (indeed, in the Lunar Empire Illuminates have a near monopoly on the highest levels of power). 

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17 hours ago, davecake said:

Please explain how you imagine that conversation going if they are trying to exclude, say, Argrath or one of his close supporters. Or a senior warlock of the SMU. Or the Tribal King, for that matter, who actually outranks the Storm Voices etc and probably physically controls access to the holy site. 

Well, that is going to depend on the courage of the priest to stand up to authority, and what cult is involved.  Now it is a moot point how open Argrath is about his illumination, and what his policy is towards illuminates.  Indications are that he is part of the Arkati compact that Mularik Iron Eye is part of, and thus he has sworn some very strict oaths about not abusing his illumination, and is monitored about it constantly, and is also extremely hostile towards feral (i.e. non-Arkati) illuminates.  If there is a bit of hypocrisy involved in illuminates killing illuminates, remember that this is the sort of contradiction illumination breeds, and thrives on.  The Arkati position is far from an immoral one, as they are protecting the world from illumination abuse.

17 hours ago, davecake said:

"But I am your chief, and I tell you that these are the true teachings of Orlanth. I am not bothered by the spirits of retribution because I am honourable and righteous. Now leave or face my wrath." *casts Command Priest*

You may be my chief but nobody can make me do anything  *had countermagic or shield up*.  Choose another temple if you want to practice heresy, I prefer the way of Harmast Barefoot to that of the tyrant Lokamayadon.

17 hours ago, davecake said:

(you seem to have entirely missed that the Orlanth Rex was introduced just to make sure the rulers out rank the priests in these situations - though admittedly it was originally to stop the priests introducing the mysticism stuff (in EWF), they didn't really anticipate centuries later a king wanting to make everyone mystics largely for strategic reasons)

No magic works infallibly.

17 hours ago, davecake said:

Arkat hated Nysalor/Gbaji, and largely because of Chaos. He absolutely did not hate Illuminates or want to kill them, considering many of his followers were actually Illuminated, and they consider themselves the 'epitome of the Light Side of Illumination'. Literally, read the section about Arkat on pg 89 of Cults of Terror, and if you don't believe it is essentially correct, then you are talking about an alternate Glorantha. Which you usually are on this topic, but you should acknowledge it.

Whatever Arkat may or may not have thought of illuminates, the Arkati who came in his wake and amongst whom Mularik Iron Eye (descendant of Akrat btw) belongs, hold a very dim view of illuminates who are not controlled by oaths to their sect.  We know that Arkati patrol the Hero Plane to stop God Learnerism, and logically that means they would regularly clash with Lunars.  I personally think Arkat went to war with Nysalor because of the abuses that illumination opens up, which Arkat subsequently exploited exactly to show Nysalor the evil he was unleashing on the world, and bring it home to him at the tip of the unbreakable sword.  This notion of light-side and dark-side illumination is exactly the sort of dichotomy that illumination undermines intrinsically.  Eventually moral relativism will lead the feral illuminate to say, "well, what is the difference between light and dark illuminism really?", and they will gradually slip into temptation and abuse their power, gradually becoming an undetectable chaos monster like Arkat, but without the moral impetus to correct a standing evil.  I imagine that the Arkati of Mularik are involved in a pretty Orwellian/Panopticon situation, where they are all answerable for their conduct to all the other illuminates, and only those who show the utmost discipline and self control are given much liberty.

17 hours ago, davecake said:

That is not how the Dark and Light side works, as they are defined on page 89 of Cults of Terror. If you deny anything written there is true (such as the Light and Dark Sides), it's an alternate Glorantha, or at least one that uses completely different terminology and mostly is at odds with what Greg, and others, have written about it. This is not a way to encourage a useful discussion. 

I have read CoT89, and it is one short paragraph that doesn't adequately cover the complexity of the situation, so I have to completely disagree.  I spoke to Greg about this at length when he was in Australia, and he said that I understood Arkat's "Shadow's Quest" pretty well.  Arkat is Nysalor's nemesis. Arkat is the Dark Side that is destined to test the light.  They are thesis and antithesis, and either only one will stand, or the end product may be synthesis.  They aren't actually so different by the time they meet, and might be regarded as something of a "mirror fight" by the time they meet at the Tower of Dreams.  We don't really know if it was actually Arkat who "won", or it was actually a repentant Nysalor who emerged to set things to rights posing as Arkat.  It doesn't matter; Arkat made the salient case of the corruption implicit in illumination to Nysalor in a way that Nysalor had to confront and could no longer ignore the corruption he had unleashed on the world.  As your morally relativist illuminate will point out"What is the difference between Light illumination and Dark illumination anyway?"  The way to hell is paved with good intentions, and moral relativism is a great way of succumbing to temptation.  The promise of Illumination is liberty, the threat of illumination is license.  Is illumination merely the Devil finding a fresh way to lead Glorantha into death by Chaos?  It seems pretty likely, as your morally relativist illuminate will point out "what is the difference between Law and Chaos anyway?"

17 hours ago, davecake said:

Except there being no evidence of a resurgence outside Ralios I know of. Certainly they don't seem to have inconvenienced the Nysaloran resurgence under the Lunars in the least. Nor do they seem to interfere when an Imperial revival of Illumination drives the EWF out of Peloria, or indeed, at any point in history after the Autarchy is defeated by the God Learners. 

I refer you to what we know about Mularik Iron Eye, his relationship with Arkat's Hold in Esrolia, and his character's trajectory vis Argrath during the hero Wars.  Mularik is destined to become Baron Saneul and fight alongside Argrath, whom he believes is the true incarnation of Arkat.  As Mularik is Arkat's living descendant, and runs a very powerful sect of Arkati Sorcerers, many of whom patrol the Hero Plane, his claim is likely to be valid, and under the patronage of Argrath, we know Mularik's power grows, but that he eventually clashes with Argrath based on what is written in KoDP.  Was this over Argrath becoming too God Learner-ish, or was it due to Mularik's own abuse of power?  That is up for debate atm.

17 hours ago, davecake said:

Argrath sees value in not abusing the system, sure, but what is abuse?

Spoken like a true morally relativist illuminate.  If you can't tell, you are part of the problem, and your shadow is already consuming you.  You think you can walk a line between good and evil, but you are already evil and just making excuses for your evil, thinking that you are still safe, but you are already corrupt in all the ways that matter.  "But what is the difference between purity and corruption anyhow?"  If you don't know, you have already lost.

17 hours ago, davecake said:

An Illuminate makes their own decision as to what constitutes abuse. Argrath seems, largely, to have decided that Chaos is abuse, but a lot of other fairly morally dubious things are merely expedient. Including bringing back Sheng whose mystic path is based in large part on slavery and torture. And even on Chaos, Argrath seems fairly flexible compared to the average Orlanthi (given he allies to Seven Mothers cultists like the Fazzurites as needed). 

No choice is ever made in a vacuum.  No choice is ever made "ceteris paribus".  That is an ideal situation that can never exist.  Every choice is made within multiple contexts, and cannot be extricated from them, and relates to all of them in varying degrees.  In other words, the illuminate is no better able to judge whether they are corrupt than a madman is able to judge their own sanity.  The judgement of corruption and abuse is a social judgement made by other people, because the illuminate is no more able to approach any objectivity about themselves than anyone else. 

If you seriously think that people from an Orlanthi society aren't aware that, as CoT89 says, "field questions in a socratic fashion, ask riddles, and don't cop spirits of retribution, and occasionally have access to magic they shouldn't know" means that someone is an illuminate, then you'd be dead wrong.  Illuminates in Orlanthi society need to hide that status, as while a few Orlanthi cults are more tolerant of illumination, most are not and are very hostile indeed, based on the Cult Compatibility chart on page 91.  Illumination will become a death sentence.  In fact, consider the fact that if other Uroxi discovered Oddi the Keen was an illuminate, they'd kill him without shame or stint based on the cult compatibility chart.

As to what Argrath considers pragmatic/expedient, and whether he spares lives and makes alliances based on a sense of compassion and a dislike of unnecessary slaughter is moot.  Now, say what you like about Sheng, he isn't a nice guy, but he also isn't a chaos monster last time I checked.  Now being tortured in a Lunar hell for centuries can change a guy admittedly...  Also remember that Orlanth and the Seven Mothers are hostile, and that hostility may make negotiation and peace difficult, but doesn't preclude it altogether, based on CoT91.

17 hours ago, davecake said:

Only if they use them in an abusive way. Who is going to denounce a Larnsting for knowing too much movement magic? A warlock for bringing multiple cults together in the SMU? Someone for using dragon magic to save the clan from a dragon? An Illuminate doesn't have to do anything. 

Yes, there is an element of witch hunting involved in the way that most Orlanthi treat illuminates.  They will look on foreign and unknown magic with suspicion, and will mull over the word "illuminate", but exactly when they will shout it in anger will vary.  An illuminate need not be a bad person, but they probably are, as "What is the difference between good and evil anyway?"  Well, tell that to the villagers who just had their children raped by your broos, illuminate.  "But what is the difference between rape and sex anyway?"  "But what is the difference between sex and love anyway?"  "But what is the difference between hate and love anyway?"  If you can't see the problem, then you have a problem.

17 hours ago, davecake said:

 The power of cultural control for an Illuminate becomes other people, rather than the gods. And the Illuminate is just as able to wield that power as anyone (indeed, in the Lunar Empire Illuminates have a near monopoly on the highest levels of power). 

I agree with this.  Now if that isn't a recipe for utter catastrophe, what is?  And what is that catastrophe called?  The Hero Wars.  Glorantha will be lucky to escape without Wakboth being released from under the Block.

 

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17 hours ago, davecake said:

Arkat hated Nysalor/Gbaji, and largely because of Chaos. He absolutely did not hate Illuminates or want to kill them, considering many of his followers were actually Illuminated, and they consider themselves the 'epitome of the Light Side of Illumination'. Literally, read the section about Arkat on pg 89 of Cults of Terror, and if you don't believe it is essentially correct, then you are talking about an alternate Glorantha. Which you usually are on this topic, but you should acknowledge it.

Actually, what kind of Illumination did Arkat achieve? There aren't so many types. Rashoranic Illumination would have you accept chaos, so that's probably out. Draconic Illumination doesn't seem at all indicated. Can sufficiently heroic people create their own kind of Illumination outside of the traditional schools?

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6 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

Can sufficiently heroic people create their own kind of Illumination outside of the traditional schools?

And you probably don't even need to be heroic to do it.

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28 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

Actually, what kind of Illumination did Arkat achieve? There aren't so many types. Rashoranic Illumination would have you accept chaos, so that's probably out. Draconic Illumination doesn't seem at all indicated. Can sufficiently heroic people create their own kind of Illumination outside of the traditional schools?

I believe it's supposed to be Draconic, given his mastery of dragon powers (dragontooth runners, EWF banner, summoning dragons to tear down the moon, etc.) and the "a dragon whispered hot words of blood and gold" line. I don't know if it's been explicitly stated as such, but I think it's the most likely.

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2 minutes ago, Richard S. said:

I believe it's supposed to be Draconic, given his mastery of dragon powers (dragontooth runners, EWF banner, summoning dragons to tear down the moon, etc.) and the "a dragon whispered hot words of blood and gold" line. I don't know if it's been explicitly stated as such, but I think it's the most likely.

Arkat, not Argrath. Argrath is clearly Draconically Illuminated, no doubts about that.

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2 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

Actually, what kind of Illumination did Arkat achieve?

Arkat is the Shadow of Nysalor - he would have achieved Nysaloran Illumination as it was understood at the end of the First Age.

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4 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

Arkat is the Shadow of Nysalor - he would have achieved Nysaloran Illumination as it was understood at the end of the First Age.

While the conclusion might well be true, I don't think the reasoning holds - neither of the two big Shadows of the Lunars (Sheng and Argrath) are Lunar Illuminated.

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On 7/14/2020 at 4:55 AM, Akhôrahil said:

Arkat, not Argrath. Argrath is clearly Draconically Illuminated, no doubts about that.

A good point.  Of course we don't know if there is actually any difference between Nysalor Illumination and Draconic Illumination.  We do know that historically Nysalor's illumination is derived from the Dragon Path, as that is what the Dragonewts provided in Nysalor's creation.  As to whether Nysalor was actually a pre-existing deity before time, or whether he is a Chaotic interloper created by an ambitious empire (as they seem to always do), is a moot point.  We know that presently the only rules for illumination are those from Cults of Terror.  I suspect that Draconic illumination must be different to Nysalor's, given that EWF members could access Draconic Magic as a result of their draconic mysticism.  In fact we only suspect that Nysalor used to grant Divine Spells, as we don't seem to possess any info on what they might have been.

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13 minutes ago, Darius West said:

A good point.  Of course we don't know if there is actually any difference between Nysalor Illumination and Draconic Illumination. 

I would imagine that Draconic Illumination doesn’t include features like acceptance of Chaos, which is core to Nysalorean/Rashoranic Illumination.

13 minutes ago, Darius West said:

 We do know that historically Nysalor's illumination is derived from the Dragon Path, as that is what the Dragonewts provided in Nysalor's creation. 

Where is this stated? Supposedly the Solars had their own pre-existing concept of Illumination.

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7 hours ago, Darius West said:

Of course we don't know if there is actually any difference between Nysalor Illumination and Draconic Illumination

If I remember correctly, the HeroQuest Illumination rules indicated that there were many different paths to Illumination but they were all fundamentally the same Illumination.

7 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

I would imagine that Draconic Illumination doesn’t include features like acceptance of Chaos, which is core to Nysalorean/Rashoranic Illumination.

During the Gods War, the Dragons and their kin generally did little to resist Chaos. To me, that indicates that they were very accepting of Chaos.

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9 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

Supposedly the Solars had their own pre-existing concept of Illumination.

I'm not sure (and have been wondering, actually) whether Dayzatar has Illuminate associations. I do get a little bit of that vibe.

Then there's all the bits that went into Sedenya that were around in some form. Rashorana certainly, in her various forms, and Zaytenera seems Illuminated.

I've kinda been of the opinion that there were bits and pieces of Illumination in and around the Solar system, but it just got a lot more formalized (and open, perhaps being restricted to closed or fringe cults before) with Nysalor.

As an aside, I think there's some very odd views into Illumination existing on the forums (and I guess thus the readership of Glorantha). Not that I am an official holder of the truth here (or anywhere!), but I think most of the strange viewpoints stem from a a lack of understanding of the things that quite clearly seem to have inspired Greg regarding Illumination. Obviously, it is not just any one thing ported out of RL into Glorantha), but the inspirations don't seem all that cryptic and I actually think it's a pretty neat way of gamifying enlightenment traditions. I think just branding it as a form of mental disorder (psychopathy) or a total lack of morality is missing the mark pretty radically, but I guess that response to it is somewhat indicative of how scary it must sometimes look to some of the more conservative minded folk in Glorantha as well...

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5 hours ago, Grievous said:

Obviously, it is not just any one thing ported out of RL into Glorantha), but the inspirations don't seem all that cryptic and I actually think it's a pretty neat way of gamifying enlightenment traditions. I think just branding it as a form of mental disorder (psychopathy) or a total lack of morality is missing the mark pretty radically, but I guess that response to it is somewhat indicative of how scary it must sometimes look to some of the more conservative minded folk in Glorantha as well...

"Everywhere people cheerfully sprouted chaos features and became krjalki."

 

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7 hours ago, Charles said:

During the Gods War, the Dragons and their kin generally did little to resist Chaos. To me, that indicates that they were very accepting of Chaos.

I would probably chalk that down to “uncaring”, rather. 

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