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Attitudes toward Arkat in Sartar in 1625


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34 minutes ago, DrDave said:

I'm trying to ifgure what Satarites in 1625 think about Arkat.  I mean, they credit him for destroying Gabaji?  OTOH, he betrayed them?

Follow the clan questionnaire from Sartar: Kingdom of Heroes.

What did your clan do when Arkat came?
□ 1. Raised all our forces to fight.
□ 2. Sent as many men as we could spare, but no more.
□ 3. Waited to see what would happen, then helped when we were sure he would win.
□ 4. Neither helped nor hindered.

Arkat the Traitor
How do you feel about Arkat’s betrayal?
□ 1. Our honor was terribly offended and we demanded vengeance.
□ 2. Offended, but we still worked with him against Gbaji.
□ 3. We did not care, he is still a hero.
□ 4. He did not become a troll, not Arkat!
□ 5. Nothing, we were not involved.

And depending on your choices, that's how your Sartarite clan feels about Arkat (he lived 1200 years ago - how do you feel about Alfred the Great or Charlemagne or Mohammed?)

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34 minutes ago, DrDave said:

I'm trying to ifgure what Satarites in 1625 think about Arkat.  I mean, they credit him for destroying Gabaji?  OTOH, he betrayed them?

Depends on who you ask. It runs the gamut from "he was a treacherous asshole who was almost as bad as Gbaji" to "he was a flawed hero, but he still saved us in the end" to "he was really cool, and all that 'betrayal' stuff is definitely not true."

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10 minutes ago, DrDave said:

OK, if someone walks into town with an Arkati tatoo, what is the reaction.  Variable?  Wait and see, because who knows what that means?

Variable, but most people, I suspect, won't actually notice if you don't shove it in their face.

Edit:  It depends on the town. 

Jonstown - some Lhankor Mhy notices it, asks you curiously about your position on Argath to add to his compendium.

Boldhome - someone thinks it is a Lunar tattoo, you almost get lynched for the wrong reason

Dangerford - Priests of Humakt study you, determine you are not undead, they cease to care.

Wilmskirk - It is used as an excuse to sell you to the Praxians

Svenstown - They assume it's some weird Praxian tattoo and run to get people to kill you but then they realize you don't look Praxian so you probably don't die.

 

 

 

 

Edited by John Biles
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On 7/1/2020 at 4:26 AM, jajagappa said:


□ 4. He did not become a troll, not Arkat!

I have always loved this. Second only to how your feelings towards dragons can be Fear Dragons, Fear Dragons, Fear Dragons, or Hate and Fear Dragons.

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4 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

I believe there are plenty of strong feelings here, though?

I think that was partially the point. Some people will have strong feelings about Arkat, others will not. It varies.

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2 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

Sometime in the fifth age, there will be this huge kerfluffle in Safelster about whether to tear down the Arkat statues.

I mean, they probably have kerfuffles around that in the Third Age too. As much as we tend to think of Arkat being popular in Safelster, it's my impression that there are plenty of anti-Arkat sentiment there too.

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2 hours ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

I mean, they probably have kerfuffles around that in the Third Age too. As much as we tend to think of Arkat being popular in Safelster, it's my impression that there are plenty of anti-Arkat sentiment there too.

There's also an abundance of "You're doing Arkat WRONG!"

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Arkat has been dead and gone for 1200 years. He has no widespread cult, only a few shadowy groups of which wildly inaccurate tales are whispered.

I've posted this before, but I'll do it again. Whenever I try to understand Glorantha's history - I position myself at the time of Alexander the Greek and look backwards.

 
Present year 1627
10 years ago - Lunar Empire invades Hendrikiland
25 years ago - Boldhome falls to the Lunar Empire
50 years ago - Battle of Grizzly Peak
100 years ago - Apotheosis of Sartar
300 years ago - Belintar unites Holy Country
500 years ago - the Dragonkill War (1120)
1000 years ago- the Kingdom of Dragon Pass. After this came the EWF.
1500 years ago - the Second Council. The Theyalans dominate Genertela and war with the Pelorian horse people.
2000 years ago - I Fought, We Won, and the Unity Battle. After this, came the Heortling kingdom, which lasted about 800 years (until Gbaji destroyed it).
2500 years ago - The Chaos Age, which lasted until the Unity Battle.
3000 years ago - the Ice Age
5000 years ago - the Vingkotlings
10,000 years ago - Orlanth kills Yelm

Compare this to a Greek at the time of Alexander (330 BC)
10 years ago - Philip founds Philippopolis
25 years ago - the Sacred War
50 years ago - Battle of Leuctra (371 BC)
100 years ago - start of the Peloponnesian War
300 years ago - fall of the Neo-Assyrian Empire
500 years ago - the neo-Assyrian Empire
1000 years ago - the Trojan War
1500 years ago - height of Babylon
2000 years ago - Sargon and the Akkadian Empire
2500 years ago - Gilgamesh is king of Uruk
3000 years ago - Menes units Egypt (first dynasty)
5000 years ago - Neolithic cities like Catal Huyuk and Jericho
10,000 years ago - beginning of Neolithic age
 
So Arkat's Wars are going to be viewed in 1625 something like how Alexander's Greeks viewed the time of Heracles. It will be filled with contradictions and inconsistencies. In some stories, Arkat is a mighty hero who defeats Gbaji atop the Tower of Justice or defeats the hated Palangio the Iron Vrok and his army of Dara Happens  In other stories, Arkat is a troll monster who leads an army of man-eating demons and trolls to destroy everyone and everything in his path, and forces men to submit to the trolls. In others, he is a tragic atheist or humanist who refuses the Lightbringers and chooses to embrace hate and darkness. In others, he fights himself - each wound inflicted upon Gbaji causes him to bleed and suffer. These stories are not put into any sort of canonical order or cycle - there's lots of Arkat stories. Many scholars scoff at their diversity.
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4 hours ago, Jeff said:

So Arkat's Wars are going to be viewed in 1625 something like how Alexander's Greeks viewed the time of Heracles. It will be filled with contradictions and inconsistencies. In some stories, Arkat is a mighty hero who defeats Gbaji atop the Tower of Justice or defeats the hated Palangio the Iron Vrok and his army of Dara Happens  In other stories, Arkat is a troll monster who leads an army of man-eating demons and trolls to destroy everyone and everything in his path, and forces men to submit to the trolls. In others, he is a tragic atheist or humanist who refuses the Lightbringers and chooses to embrace hate and darkness. In others, he fights himself - each wound inflicted upon Gbaji causes him to bleed and suffer. These stories are not put into any sort of canonical order or cycle - there's lots of Arkat stories. Many scholars scoff at their diversity.

It's not unlike opinions of Alexander, which vary with time and place.

For some he's a great conqueror who sought revenge for the treatment of the Greeks in Ionia and Aeolia and the burning of Athens, for others he is a ruthless conquer who overthrew the democracies of Greece,  for others he is the ambitious tyrant who destroyed one of the most tolerant empires in the Ancient World, the general who misused his faithful troops and when they thwarted his plan to reach the Ganges punished them by having them march through the deserts of southern Persia where many died, for others he is the great statesman who sought to merge the Greeks and Persians, and for others the failed statesmen whose lack of preparations plunged his empire into centuries of war and ultimately partition between the Romans and Parthians.

Alexander - hero or villain?

Arkat - hero or monster?

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4 minutes ago, M Helsdon said:

It's not unlike opinions of Alexander, which vary with time and place.

For some he's a great conqueror who sought revenge for the treatment of the Greeks in Ionia and Aeolia and the burning of Athens, for others he is a ruthless conquer who overthrew the democracies of Greece,  for others he is the ambitious tyrant who destroyed one of the most tolerant empires in the Ancient World, the general who misused his faithful troops and when they thwarted his plan to reach the Ganges punished them by having them march through the deserts of southern Persia where many died, for others he is the great statesman who sought to merge the Greeks and Persians, and for others the failed statesmen whose lack of preparations plunged his empire into centuries of war and ultimately partition between the Romans and Parthians.

Alexander - hero or villain?

Arkat - hero or monster?

Yes. The Alexander of Ferdowsi, the accursed Alexander of the Sassanians, Dhul-Qarnayn, Sikander, the Alexander of Josephus, the Alexander of the medieval Nine Worthies, etc. Sometimes a villain, sometimes a hero.

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On 7/8/2020 at 9:15 PM, M Helsdon said:

It's not unlike opinions of Alexander, which vary with time and place.

For some he's a great conqueror who sought revenge for the treatment of the Greeks in Ionia and Aeolia and the burning of Athens, for others he is a ruthless conquer who overthrew the democracies of Greece,  for others he is the ambitious tyrant who destroyed one of the most tolerant empires in the Ancient World, the general who misused his faithful troops and when they thwarted his plan to reach the Ganges punished them by having them march through the deserts of southern Persia where many died, for others he is the great statesman who sought to merge the Greeks and Persians, and for others the failed statesmen whose lack of preparations plunged his empire into centuries of war and ultimately partition between the Romans and Parthians.

Alexander - hero or villain?

Arkat - hero or monster?

 

On 7/8/2020 at 9:26 PM, Jeff said:

Yes. The Alexander of Ferdowsi, the accursed Alexander of the Sassanians, Dhul-Qarnayn, Sikander, the Alexander of Josephus, the Alexander of the medieval Nine Worthies, etc. Sometimes a villain, sometimes a hero.

I think this is pretty much dead on, and I am in full agreement.  In 1625, Arkat will be a distant historical figure to most people in Sartar, and largely irrelevant to their cattle-obsessed way of life.  Now if someone comes along and says "King Argrath is the reincarnation of Arkat", most people will shrug, puzzled at this piece of odd propaganda polemic.  A couple of Lhankor Mhys who have an interest in history may prick up their ears and hit the books, but unless and until someone starts making Arkat part of tribal and religious identification, nobody will give much of a damn.  I mean, a character might remember "oh yeah, our tribe paid lip service to Lokamayadon, but switched sides when Arkat came along, then he got turned into a troll and went to Dorastor", but does that really define your present relationship with Arkat?  Hardly.  "Oi reckon I'll be here mindin' my cattle and chewin' on a sorrel stalk if it's all the same to you, sir."

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2 hours ago, Darius West said:

Now if someone comes along and says "King Argrath is the reincarnation of Arkat", most people will shrug, puzzled at this piece of odd propaganda polemic.

This is where the semantics come into play, and the meaning of the terms.  If Arkat means "Liberator" and that is like saying "Messiah", rather than referencing a specific historical figure, then it may well entail more debate.  Or it may be "Argrath who?" - aside from those who were at the Cradle, at the Battle of Pennel Ford, or off in Prax/Pavis in 1625, who in Sartar will have heard of him?  Or if they have, it may be that the Praxian beast riders have a new leader called the White Bull - the name Argrath may not even come up until he finally arrives in Sartar in late 1626.

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