Illumination

[scott-martin]

25 minutes ago, davecake said:

Does anyone remember Trilobitology, Greg's (non-Glorantha/gaming connected) satirical religion? It's got more than a bit in common with Immanent Mastery, I think. 

Say more. I'm trying to collate that stuff with the Burning Man dinosaur camp materials.

[davecake]

8 minutes ago, scott-martin said:

Say more. I'm trying to collate that stuff with the Burning Man dinosaur camp materials.

I know very little! Somewhere, I have copies of a couple of the hand-outs Greg made, I think Greg brought a bunch of them to RQ Con Down Under or something, or MOB had some and handed them out? And I was told that Greg made them to hand out at Burning Man or similar events. I could post scans if I ever find them again, but don't know if I could find them. 

I do remember most of the rants - if ancient wisdom is the best wisdom, then the older the better - and what is older than trilobytes? Obviously the wisest of all. 

[Nick Brooke]

2 hours ago, davecake said:

Does anyone remember Trilobitology, Greg's (non-Glorantha/gaming connected) satirical religion? It's got more than a bit in common with Immanent Mastery, I think. 

Trilobitology was, IIRC, a throwaway joke about “elder wisdom” for people who were dissatisfied by the revelations of Saurintology. (Briefly: Did you ever notice how everyone has a favourite dinosaur? Weird, huh? That’s your spirit animal, contacting you from the Dinosaur Age and urging us not to make the same mistakes the dinosaurs did. Saurintology is the path to understanding Dinosaur Wisdom)

[David Scott]

5 hours ago, scott-martin said:

Say more. I'm trying to collate that stuff with the Burning Man dinosaur camp materials.

[John Biles]

4 minutes ago, David Scott said:

I am laughing hysterically.  This is GREAT.

 

[John Biles]

Those could probably be turned into EWF posters with a little work.

[jajagappa]

19 hours ago, Nick Brooke said:

Did you ever notice how everyone has a favourite dinosaur? Weird, huh? That’s your spirit animal, contacting you from the Dinosaur Age

I wonder what Parasaurolophus was trying to tell me??? 😮

[scott-martin]

33 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

Parasaurolophus

Accidental mutation damaged the egg. The nature of the damage may be a combination of ambition and impatience, depending on neck to tail ratio.

I consider this not quite on thread because it is veering esoteric into other technologies of consciousness, but what the hell, we can get it back . . . 

. . . penitent parasaurolophus ultimately grow wings and become something like birds, in which form they are considered aspirational in some forms of Pelorian mysticism (but never Kralorela). When the Bright Empire with its fixation on "highness" came in, they took to the sky and were never seen again, except in memories, dreams, reflections. Maybe some day they will return.

[jajagappa]

10 minutes ago, scott-martin said:

Accidental mutation damaged the egg. The nature of the damage may be a combination of ambition and impatience, depending on neck to tail ratio.

I consider this not quite on thread because it is veering esoteric into other technologies of consciousness, but what the hell, we can get it back . . . 

Illuminating!  (see, I got us back on thread 😉 )

[Darius West]

On 1/8/2021 at 3:13 PM, davecake said:

Immanent Mastery, by Greg's definition, is not mysticism because it doesn't use mystic methods at all. It uses pretty straight forward Rune Magic mostly, even though it has mystic goals. 

I enjoyed what you wrote and largely agree with it.  I do think that there is enough evidence to still defend the idea that Immanent Mastery is a mystical tradition.

(1) In HeroQuest we are told there are 2 forms of Mysticism, transcendental and immanent.  The transcendent seeks to go beyond the world, while the Immanent see that the world is within us.  The very name of Immanent Mastery suggests that second string of mysticism which is often neglected.  I recall that the Lunar Taraltaran Sect are Immanent Mystics who practice a scimitar martial art, for example.  Draconic Mysticism definitely has elements of both Transcendental and Immanent philosophy to it, and that is what Immanent Mastery is seeking to emulate.  I think in fact that what they have produced is a successfully simplified form of Draconic transformation which is indeed perfectly within the purview of Immanent mysticism.

(2) Immanent Mastery is described as a Kralorelan Mystery cult.  We know however that it was in fact an attempt by the Jrusteli to harness and understand the Draconic Mysteries. It does however possess a Charismatic Wisdom skill which is substantially akin to Illumination in many ways but is obviously (as you suggest) a New Age parody of it, as it is based on a superficial and reductionist God Learner understanding of the Draconic Mysteries.  In fact the Jrusteli were singularly unable to duplicate the Draconic Mysteries, and Immanent Mastery is likely their best effort at doing so.  For all that, Immanent Mastery is really little different to Hykim and Mikyh (itself a Draconic cult which gave rise to Totemic Shamanism), and might be classed as a Draconic Heresy.  There is also record of the fact that many of the Dragonewt cities in Dragon Pass themselves practice draconic heresies.  Now the term Draconic Heresy might easily be misapplied or over applied.

As such I think it is unfair to say that the intention of Immanent Mastery isn't mysticism, but that it is a failed form of Draconic mysticism, undoubtedly interspersed with legitimate Draconic teachings.  I would even go so far as to say that a follower of Immanent Mastery may well be able to integrate into a true Draconic Tradition if they underwent the split brain surgery and were prepared to jettison the parts of their training that were extraneous to what the Dragonewts might teach them.   I would also argue that a failed mystic is still a mystic, just not a very good one.  The Exarchs may consider them idiots, but then the Exarchs perform a similarly misunderstood and mutant form of Sorcery, using Permanent Pow instead of Magic Points, that derives from the Godhood of their Emperor, so really, who are the idiots?

 

[soltakss]

14 minutes ago, Darius West said:

(1) In HeroQuest we are told there are 2 forms of Mysticism, transcendental and immanent.  The transcendent seeks to go beyond the world, while the Immanent see that the world is within us.  The very name of Immanent Mastery suggests that second string of mysticism which is often neglected.  I recall that the Lunar Taraltaran Sect are Immanent Mystics who practice a scimitar martial art, for example.  Draconic Mysticism definitely has elements of both Transcendental and Immanent philosophy to it, and that is what Immanent Mastery is seeking to emulate.  I think in fact that what they have produced is a successfully simplified form of Draconic transformation which is indeed perfectly within the purview of Immanent mysticism.

I do like the idea of immanent mysticism.

Too much of mysticism in Glorantha is about refuting the world, withdrawing from it and so on, which simply does not appeal to me.

I much prefer mystics who embrace the world and study a particular part of it, becoming so entwined in that particular part that they ignore or forget about everything else. But, they gain powers through their immense focus.

So, the mystics of Old Wind contemplating their breath for aeons gain storm magic. People contemplating the Darkness gain control of fear or darkness magic. People staring into the maw of Chaos time and time again gain chaos magic or magic against chaos. People embracing Uleria's love gain power over love. 

[Darius West]

On 1/6/2021 at 5:08 PM, davecake said:

I think that Irensavalism can have connections to Illumination, but post-Arkat they are concealed and not overt. I think they are still there - but you have to know where to look (it seems obvious to me as an outsider that Talor is Illuminated, and his Apocypha contains some hints about Illumination (and is part of the modern Loskalm Canon), and it is well hidden from the laity. First, prove yourself as wise enough to learn sorcery, then explore the gnostic wisdom, only when you have fully understood Joy (and submitted to many examinations of the spirit) can you then be trusted to experiment with the secret doctrines - only then can they be sure that you will not fall to the Nysaloran temptation, but correctly approach the mystic secrets correctly. 

I would suggest a different approach.  I think that the mainstay of surviving illumination in the West is the Arkat Cult, by which I mean the one that Mularik Ironeye belongs to, not those abortive schismatic Safelstran city state cults.  They are a small, selective crew with a join-or-die mentality and an intensely strict moral code and an Orwellian review process.

The aim of Irensavalism is to attain a new gnosis of the Invisible God.  The aim of Illumination is personal liberation.  Now to a casual and uninformed eye, a mad hermit sitting in a cave performing asceticism doesn't look much different to another mad hermit sitting in a cave performing asceticism, but one might be a sort of Satanic version of Catweazle, while the other might be St. John the Divine.  The fact is, it is possible for mystics to have radically different aims and outcomes, even if their practices seem similar.

I think that Irensavalist mystics are busily performing asceticism in order to enter the Saint Plane in order to HQ towards their new gnosis, which is a Transcendental form of Mysticism, but bears no relationship to Illumination.

By comparison, I regard Illumination as a form of Layman Zen Buddhism combined with Anthropological insight.  Certain individuals are subjected to a series of questions (koans) that set up a high degree of cognitive dissonance, and when these implicit, largely culturally based contradictions reach a critical mass, the individual either goes insane, or becomes able to separate themselves from their cultural prejudice and preconceptions, and thus also from those of other cultures, and the spiritual penalties of those societies.  The difference being that Zen would never accept that Chaos is in any way tolerable, as while Chaos was once a valuable tool in the creation of the world, it is now solely a source of corruption, and the Buddhist teaching is that when one crosses a river, one leaves the boat behind, and if the boat has become a crawling perversion that spits disease and mutation causing danger to everybody, it is better than it be burned for the compassionate safety of everyone else while you compassionately pray the chaos boat enjoys a better rebirth than its present hellbeast manifestation.

On 1/6/2021 at 5:08 PM, davecake said:

So Darius, when you keep going on about Illumination being just  a recipe for munchkinism - you aren't 100% wrong, but you are 50% wrong, and that cuts so much of the richness, both in terms of how it relates to real mysticism, AND in how it drives cool Gloranthan gaming and metaplot themes. 

I hope you haven't seriously thought that my argument was so simplistic,  as I assure you it is multi-layered.

Yes, I do think that Illumination is a recipe for munchkinism.  I think that it is a means by which that certain individuals in Glorantha can break social conventions and achieve a lot more power than is available within the confines of their culture alone.  Illumination is a shortcut to Herodom.  It is also a shortcut to Chaos.

My complaints about Illumination are different.

Firstly, while I grant that Illumination might initially allow a view of all peoples as fundamentally trapped within their worldviews and unable to see beyond the constraints of their upbringing and preconceptions, of necessity, I debate the notion that this amounts to a philosophical neutrality towards Chaos instantly.  I strongly debate that an illuminate would look upon your average pus-spurting chaos rape monster with the post-cultural equanimity that the Illumination write-up suggests.  The Arkati of Mularik Ironeye certainly don't regard chaos in this way, and they are illuminated.  I would argue that most illuminates in the Lunar Empire can see some superficial value in employing chaos monsters as shock troops so that Lunar Citizens might not have to die, but will that cultural equanimity be maintained when the Crimson Bat traverses their province and their friends and family end up in the bat's belly?   Chaos may have been present at the beginning of the world as a formative element, the Primal Plasma, but the Unholy Trio polluted the Chaosium and now it is a source of only bad things.  Just because you have become spontaneously become a Zen anthropologist doesn't mean you suddenly look on nuclear war and nuclear waste with equanimity, (and lets face facts, mutations and the end of the world is what Chaos is all about) in fact it utterly cuts against the fundamental reason for the insight which promotes that illumination, which is compassion.  You will cure the chaotic if you can, and destroy them if you must, but you will understand that if you value the survival of the world as a vehicle of further illumination that it needs to be protected, and rampant chaos is a huge existential threat to that. 

Secondly, and for this discussion, more importantly, I think Illumination is a very bad model for mysticism for a very tangible reason within the RQG rules. Why? Well, let me explain...

Illumination is not a complete picture of the process, and in fact Nysalorism is not a "live tradition", but in fact a dead one, resuscitated by the Lunars in much the same way that the Medieval Church kept a bastardized form of Latin alive long after it was a dead language.  The illumination write-up produces this false expectation that all mysticism results in a form of "illumination" as its desired outcome, but this is not correct in any way.  In fact, Nysalorism as a dead cult in fact has not mystical practice, and the only thing that remains is its legacy of a name for its singular philosophical outlook at completion.

Draconic mysticism seriously doesn't care about illumination, its goal is to gain enough spiritual power, and wisdom to complete the rebirths necessary to become a True Dragon.  This seems to be a very Immanent style of mysticism, until one realizes that the asceticism comes in not partaking of the  powers prematurely, and ultimately a True Dragon is both Transcendent and Immanent as it pleases.

The HQ rules do in fact cover Mysticism, and so does the Mongoose Second Age rules.  However unsatisfactory these approaches are, they provide some guidance.  I would also hasten to point out that we do in fact have a Cult write-up for a live mystical tradition in the forthcoming RuneQuest: Gods of Glorantha volume, that being the Cult of Dayzatar.  In this write-up we are told that Dayzatar monks must have been Priests of a Friendly cult before becoming monks, that they must swear to a code of conduct; that they meditate to remove their worldly failings and sins and largely live lives of isolation and contemplation.  They do however get their own Rune Magic.  What they don't get is the power of Refutations as discussed in HQ, though in fact, they probably should.

The issue of Mysticism in Glorantha is a bit like the issue of Magic in Pendragon.  In both systems and worlds, characters have existed for a long time without access to the info, and while the characters have interacted with these powers, they have always been mysterious and out of reach, which has added to their allure, but has also been a bit dissatisfying.  Now when Pendragon introduced a magic system, some people relished the opportunity to play a magic user, while others didn't like the system and said that the air of mystery behind magic was ruined by it.  In fact it was objectively a very interesting magic system, but it certainly has the potential to disrupt the folkloric impetus that motivated many knightly adventures.  This need not be the case in Glorantha, as it is implicitly a far more magical place, but  if we are to introduce mysticism, it needs to make strong use of the cornerstones of Mysticism, such as ascetic practice, meditation on the nature of reality, the intricacies of philosophical approach, and so forth, and these should have a tangible effect on the power of the Mystic.

What mysticism is NOT however is a dead tradition.  Nysalorism is a dead tradition.  Irensavalism is a live tradition.  Draconic Mysticism is a live tradition.  the Sadhus of Teshnos are a live tradition, the cult of Dayzatar is a live tradition, etc.

In short, Mysticism needs a separate write-up in the same way that Sorcery, Shamanism and Divine Magic have been written up, and it needs to be good.  It also should never assume that illumination is the same for every Mystical Tradition, as they each have very different aims and objectives even if they look superficially similar.

 

[Darius West]

1 hour ago, soltakss said:

I do like the idea of immanent mysticism.

Too much of mysticism in Glorantha is about refuting the world, withdrawing from it and so on, which simply does not appeal to me.

I completely agree.  The fact is that the isolated renunciate makes for a truly terrible player character.  A fighting mystic like a Taraltaran or an Immanent Mastery initiate make for far more interesting and action packed stories.  I did once play a saintly Franciscan monk in Ars Magica (and had a great time too), but the setting lent itself to allowing the character to shine.

1 hour ago, soltakss said:

So, the mystics of Old Wind contemplating their breath for aeons gain storm magic. People contemplating the Darkness gain control of fear or darkness magic. People staring into the maw of Chaos time and time again gain chaos magic or magic against chaos. People embracing Uleria's love gain power over love. 

Agreed.  Let us also remember the great Orlanthi mystical tradition of the Larnstings.  The foremost member of whom was probably Sartar, who never killed anybody but did periodically change people into things.  If I were to play a Larnsting, I think I would want to develop the means of causing Chaos' desire to consume to turn upon itself, effectively making chaos features cure themselves like a cancer that gave itself cancer.

[Sir_Godspeed]

1 hour ago, soltakss said:

So, the mystics of Old Wind contemplating their breath for aeons gain storm magic. People contemplating the Darkness gain control of fear or darkness magic. People staring into the maw of Chaos time and time again gain chaos magic or magic against chaos. People embracing Uleria's love gain power over love. 

Not necessarily as much "getting power over" as "reaching harmony with/becoming one with", etc.

[soltakss]

2 hours ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

Not necessarily as much "getting power over" as "reaching harmony with/becoming one with", etc.

And in the process gaining powers of

[Akhôrahil]

3 hours ago, Darius West said:

In short, Mysticism needs a separate write-up in the same way that Sorcery, Shamanism and Divine Magic have been written up, and it needs to be good.  It also should never assume that illumination is the same for every Mystical Tradition, as they each have very different aims and objectives even if they look superficially similar.

Another angle would be to see mysticism as an approach, not a separate type of magic. There would be mystical polytheism, mystical monotheism, even mystical shamanism.

[Darius West]

2 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

Another angle would be to see mysticism as an approach, not a separate type of magic. There would be mystical polytheism, mystical monotheism, even mystical shamanism.

Sadly, Greg in Arcane Lore (The Stafford Library) is pretty clear that Mysticism is very much its own distinct type of magic and is every bit as important as shamanism, theism or sorcery so I cannot agree that mysticism is just an "approach".  Now please understand that I am not disagreeing with you insofar as I think that every culture in Glorantha probably has its own system of mysticism, just as Kralorela which is ostensibly mainly Mystical also has shamans, priests and sorcerers.  We really do need a discrete system for mysticism in Glorantha to reflect what Greg wrote.   

[Sir_Godspeed]

4 hours ago, soltakss said:

And in the process gaining powers of

Yes, but in all likelihood, this monorunic mysticism probably entails the runes getting power over them in turn, or rather, the line between them becoming blurred, in that typical "dichotomies are false, everything is one" kind of sense. 

My interpretation: Mr. Old Wind Mystic controls the winds, yes. Very powerful stuff. He can summon a storm or turn aside a tornado without suffering any harm.

But he also goes when and where the winds take him. He builds no great clan coalitions or tribal empires. Its will is his. He's achieved mystical union with it. The tempest of ego has dissipated, and joined in the greater cycle of Airs. Sometimes this leads him to go on quests, but whose to say if it's him or the winds that are the source of that motivation? (Admittedly, someone this powerful might be past their PC stage, but you get the gist).

Someone actively going in with the motivation of getting power over a rune sounds a lot more like sorcery.

[jajagappa]

1 hour ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

But he also goes when and where the winds take him. He builds no great clan coalitions or tribal empires. Its will is his. He's achieved mystical union with it.

Much like Lokaymadon achieving Tarumath.  (Except that he couldn't let go of the ego.)

[Akhôrahil]

2 hours ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

But he also goes when and where the winds take him. He builds no great clan coalitions or tribal empires. Its will is his. He's achieved mystical union with it. The tempest of ego has dissipated, and joined in the greater cycle of Airs. Sometimes this leads him to go on quests, but whose to say if it's him or the winds that are the source of that motivation? (Admittedly, someone this powerful might be past their PC stage, but you get the gist).

HeroQuest had something like this - above Devotee was Disciple, but at this point, you have given up so much of your free will and personal identity in order to emulate and personify your god that the character is barely playable any longer. This is what I would expect from Old Wind heavyweights.

Edited January 10, 2021 by Akhôrahil

[Sir_Godspeed]

1 hour ago, Akhôrahil said:

HeroQuest had something like this - above Devotee was Disciple, but at this point, you have given up so much of your free will and personal identity in order to emulate and personify your god that the character is barely playable any longer. This is what I would expect from Old Wind heavyweights.

Yeah, a PC is probably someone struggling on the threshold of this. Deep enough to get interesting, playable powers, but not enough to yet have quenched their "worldliness" for lack of a better word. Or someone going through some personal issue that is blocking further advancement (strong personal passions regarding something specific, etc.)

Edited January 10, 2021 by Sir_Godspeed

[Joerg]

14 hours ago, Darius West said:

Sadly, Greg in Arcane Lore (The Stafford Library) is pretty clear that Mysticism is very much its own distinct type of magic and is every bit as important as shamanism, theism or sorcery so I cannot agree that mysticism is just an "approach".  Now please understand that I am not disagreeing with you insofar as I think that every culture in Glorantha probably has its own system of mysticism, just as Kralorela which is ostensibly mainly Mystical also has shamans, priests and sorcerers.  We really do need a discrete system for mysticism in Glorantha to reflect what Greg wrote.   

The very same author was crystal clear at the time Arcane Lore was finally published that the magics showed by the mystics would be forms of sorcery, theism or animism, apart from that refutation ability slowly accrued by meditation through various means, including asceticism, austerities, and tantric practices.

This does give a mystic justification for even the degenerate excesses of the orgies of Red Emperor Magnificus as valid mystical practice on the way to greater enlightenment. The company of victims of deluded hedonism may serve as the mystical challenge/temptation for those who engage in the practice. But individuals like Moirades succeeded in their ascension to the Red Moon in the course of these orgies, and any such success is of course a cause for more such celebrations.

[French Desperate WindChild]

On 1/9/2021 at 10:46 PM, Darius West said:

Sadly, Greg in Arcane Lore (The Stafford Library) is pretty clear that Mysticism is very much its own distinct type of magic and is every bit as important as shamanism, theism or sorcery so I cannot agree that mysticism is just an "approach".  Now please understand that I am not disagreeing with you insofar as I think that every culture in Glorantha probably has its own system of mysticism, just as Kralorela which is ostensibly mainly Mystical also has shamans, priests and sorcerers.  We really do need a discrete system for mysticism in Glorantha to reflect what Greg wrote.   

I don't know what is mysticism, but your answer makes me think.

I would say there are two things :

1) lore / story telling / poetry :

mysticism could be a distinct way , with different practices, values, view of the world, than the 2.5 "magics" already described in rqg (0.5 for sorcery, until the good book)

 

but in the same time, we could imagine that

 

2) gameplay

effects of mysticism could use one of the actual system.

- a air mystic may learn how to use wind power to use a sword (RP). Why not sacrifice some POW and gain sword trance spell (GP) . it is not the sword trance (depending of what is mysticism, there is no god or there is a god behind the spell), but it is exactly the same bonus, issues, etc..

or

- if people think that mystics can manipulate deeply their concept, than why not use the sorcery system with some restrictions :

depending of the school, a mystic can manipulate only some elements and powers. For example an air mystic could use/create sorcery-like spell based only on air / command / summon / combine runes . he doesn't masterize the command rune in the sorcery approach,  that is different, but he can use a ... thing ... to do the same job .

only on mechanic, that is not sorcery, that is something else, that is mysticism, and it is considered as such by other cults (yes now you can have an orlanthi sorcerer, call him orlanthi mystic ).

But at least, there are then some advantages :

for us, we have not to know more rules.

for chaosium, they don't have to define new rules and no risk to add game unbalancing issues. They could focus on creation / rp stuffs, creating the cult/sect/school of mystics with the list of powers associated.

[Alex]

On 1/6/2021 at 7:38 AM, John Biles said:

That being said, there are degrees of failure.  Mysticism in Kralorela only seems to have really been badly abused by the God-Learners, though maybe we just don't have enough data.

I guess that all depends on what you deem to be "abuse".  (Or where you set the "badly" threshold.)  I think at the very least there's the critique -- or what passes as critique in such circles -- of the type you see with Theravada vs Mahayana (if you look at it from the PoV of some of the "purer" Vithelan traditions, most notably).  Kralori 'mysticism' evidently takes a much more compatibilist approach to things like other forms of magic (or mashups or combos thereof), and most glaringly of all, of the whole 'being mystics and an empire at the same time' thing.

I think in practice there's almost two orthogonal axes at work.  There's whether a practice is 'pure' mysticism, 'immanent' mysticism, or not obviously mysticism at all;  and there's whether it's seen as Skillful Means of the bringing about Cosmic Draconic Realization by way of a Civilisation-in-Being strategy, as neither here nor there, or as to be strongly opposed as detrimental to that purpose.  So some practices that seem suspiciously like bog-standard animism, theism, and sorcery, are deemed to be 'Draconic';  some practices that are overtly mystical, in magical terms or otherwise, are denounced as 'Undraconic'.  Then you get muddled-up people like the PoIM who're sort of in the middle in both respects.

[Darius West]

On 1/11/2021 at 9:27 AM, French Desperate WindChild said:

I don't know what is mysticism, but your answer makes me think.

Okay, basically a mystic is a devotee of a form of asceticism, generally linked to a religious philosophy.  They practice austerities, and seek through their denial of the flesh and their desires to transcend the limits of the merely mortal world.  Real world examples of ascetics would include religions such as Buddhism, Sikhism, some parts of the Hindu tradition (though it is mainly pantheistic).  The most commonly existing Gloranthan mystic would probably be a Kralori Martial Artist, though the Lunars are trying to mass produce illuminates.

On 1/11/2021 at 9:27 AM, French Desperate WindChild said:

I would say there are two things :

1) lore / story telling / poetry :

mysticism could be a distinct way , with different practices, values, view of the world, than the 2.5 "magics" already described in rqg (0.5 for sorcery, until the good book)

Presently Ars Magica is the only game that specifically treats asceticism/mysticism as a distinct magic system with much success imo.  HeroQuest had a system based on Refutation, where you could Refute Gravity to fly, or Refute the Stomach to not have to eat etc.  Mongoose did a system where the mystic had a single very well developed power, but I didn't like the system much.  There is frequent mention of the mystic path in Stafford's "Arcane Secrets".

On 1/11/2021 at 9:27 AM, French Desperate WindChild said:

- if people think that mystics can manipulate deeply their concept, than why not use the sorcery system with some restrictions :

depending of the school, a mystic can manipulate only some elements and powers. For example an air mystic could use/create sorcery-like spell based only on air / command / summon / combine runes . he doesn't masterize the command rune in the sorcery approach,  that is different, but he can use a ... thing ... to do the same job .

This isn't really in keeping with what mysticism is like.  Sorcery is about logic and liturgy.  Mystics are more about questioning the underlying nature of reality.  A classic example from Glorantha is the Larnsting Mystic who became King Sartar the First.  When he confronted the tyrannical King Brangbane, he used his change power to turn Brangbane and his rotten followers into ghouls.  Another time he turned people into pigs.  Sometimes he turned clans into tribes etc.  Sartar never personally killed anyone, but he did change things, which is not surprising as Larnste is the old deity of the Movement/Change rune, and that rune features heavily in the Storm Pantheon.  In the new write-up for example, Mastakos now has a protean change spell to draw upon.  The source for this is KoDP.  

I think one of the things that a "mysticism system" needs is a large focus on meditation skill at very least.  Mystics are in the process of renouncing the world for a transcendent life beyond that of the mere spirit plane, though some would erroneously call them spiritual.

Mystics would have powers to overcome physical limitations of their bodies.  They can ignore privations like extremes of temperature, needs for sustenance, the need to breathe, and even ignore certain types of physical damage.  A mystic could perform feats of levitation, bi-location, or even telepathy and teleportation.  Your classic Shaolin martial arts Monk likely supplements his fighting ability with a measure of ascetic mystical training.  You might argue then that mystics are all about their bodies and their magical feats are all tied to their physical form, and that would be mainly of true but sort of false too.  Christian mystics would be carried into the Heavens undergoing bizarre experiences.  Hindu mystics would hold their fist in the air for 2 decades, forcing the very gods to accede to their will.  Sikh martyrs would be boiled alive by Muslims and never display signs of discomfort.  Arguably the monkey king Sun Wukong from Journey to the West is also a highly developed mystic, and his powers are very odd indeed, including a cloud trapeze, invulnerability, immortality, the ability to call forth duplicates of himself etc.