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On 1/26/2021 at 5:44 PM, Darius West said:

Clearly these people are turning into fire breathing lizardmen.  How?

and I've answered that multiple times already - most likely by essentially theistic techniques, probably grabbing from numerous sources. 

That you can take source of magical power and access them via different methods than the original is not a new idea, not in dispute, and actually kind of routine. Yes, shamans can talk to the same entities on the spirit plan that might be sacrificed to by a priest or invoked by a sorcerer and it all works. 

I know no one wants to bring back the idea of Misapplied Worship (well, I don't, I no longer understand what Darius wants), but let's call it Differently Applied Worship. Using a particular form of magic to obtain magic from an entity does not mean your magic is really another form of magic that someone else uses to obtain magic from that entity. 

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I would have abandoned the Tarot scheme.  The major framing device for the organization of the Arkati cults (Arkat the Destroyer etc) I would have attributed to Halwal (in order words, the cults of Ar

I apologize for the length of this reply in advance.    It's hard to take this post seriously at all. "Chaos is definitely objectively the death of the world, or else Gloranthans would rev

Give it a rest, man!

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3 hours ago, Darius West said:

Xemela's miracle could not be performed by an individual sorcerer or theist, and yet it is. 

Unless they, say, had support from others or heroquested, or had access to extremely powerful magic? 

3 hours ago, Darius West said:

It was not a hero quest,

Why not? And even if we accept it wasn't a heroquest (though I don't follow your reasoning at all), why jump then to mysticism, without any evidence to indicate it? Seriously, this is asking about two sentences about Xemela to bear an extraordinary amount of weight. 

3 hours ago, Darius West said:

but a single person performing magic beyond what a community could reasonable expect to perform. 

 

is there anything, anywhere, which says Xemela did not have some magical support from her community, in her efforts to save them? It looks to me you inferred it, simply because in that handful of sentences it does specifically state what we would normally expect, and then expect others to treat it as hard evidence. And there is significant doubt that she is just a normal human in any case - and we are talking ancient stories that would be reconceptualised to fit in with more current conceptions anyway. 

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On 1/26/2021 at 5:24 PM, Darius West said:

Nysalorism is dead.  The source of the teachings has died to this world and the next.  He didn't transcend, he died. 

Well, yes. But are we then to assume that any mystic who is not walking around is therefore invalid? The point is, are his teachings still followable to achieve some mystic effect. 

His *other* magic has been lost. But that's a different thing. And his path is clearly incomplete. But that is also a different thing. Mysticism is the method, Nysalor documented a method, and how to teach it. If Nysalorism was dead, then Nysalor Riddles wouldn't work. But they do. 

On 1/26/2021 at 5:24 PM, Darius West said:

When you join the Larnstings for example, you gain the power to Change.  Nysalori gain no such power; their mysticism is the hijacking of other cults like a magical cuckoo or parasite. 

 
 

Once again, it seems you confuse mysticism with mystics use of other magic. The guide says 'The magic provided is inconsequential and typically of no interest save to those who study it.' - but you say the opposite, you are saying that it isn't real mysticism UNLESS it grants magic that is highly consequential. When you are arguing that canon is not just flawed, but literally 100% the opposite of correct, maybe take a minute to reflect?

 

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On 1/26/2021 at 5:24 PM, Darius West said:

Dayzatar is SUPPOSED to be THE Yelm Pantheon mystical tradition.  I don't want to do a literature search to prove the point, but I wouldn't raise the point if I didn't know it to be true.  Page 186 of the Gods of Glorantha preview lists him as being a master of purity and invisible wisdom, keeping himself in sacrosanct isolation, a master of ascetic purity removed from all worldly concerns.   He is also notable for having monks, but no initiates, and all his followers are taken from other cults. 

If you think ascetism and an obsession with purity and isolation makes mysticism, then you are on the wrong track. I mean, it would be a big surprise to medieval monastic orders that they aren't about worship. 

Ascetism is used by all forms of magic, and ritual purity seems to be related. Meditation likewise. He is certainly unworldly, but I think Dayzatar monks are trying to essentially arrange their entire life around worshipping Dayzatar. 

For a broad definition of 'mystic methods' you might say Dayzatar is using mythic methods for theist goals - but I'm not really sure there methods are mystic either, given that they basically spend their time in prayer. 

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4 hours ago, Darius West said:

Radiotherapy is goddamn awful.

Sure, but do you think it is evil? Inimical? Intrinsically wrong? Like, literally you think we'd be better off not having developed it? 

4 hours ago, Darius West said:

As to high energy physics, well, studying dangerous things is one of the few ways we learn how to protect ourselves from them, so I'm fine with that.

Right, so you think it is practically problematic, but ... philosophically... you are ok with it? Somewhat... neutral? 

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The four approaches to magic can also be seen as philosophical attitudes towards the Otherside. Theism involves ritual submission to it, sorcery involves ritual domination of it, shamanism involves ritual equality with it... and mysticism says that there's no meaningful difference between This Side and the Otherside. Or to put it another way, mysticism allows you to disrupt the hierarchies of the Otherside rather than navigate within them.

The three/four-way division of the sons of Aether replicates an idealized vision of Solar society- you have priests who keep themselves aloof from the impure world, workers who are so immersed in the muck of the world they're totally impure, soldiers who are meant to be seen and not heard, and nobles who must intermediate between these groups and hold themselves pure. It's a fairly straightforward set of relationships.

But then we have Yelm/Murharzarm experiencing what it's like to be one of the Many, reversing the hierarchy that should be in place. We have Antirius/Yelmalio accepting subordination and defeat at the Hill of Gold, breaking the hierarchy of Light standing above everyone else. These two are important gateways to mysticism because if you contemplate their myths and experience them, you'll be forced to confront questions about the reality of your society. Whereas if you're an undiagnosed anorexic Dayzatar priest experiencing Dayzatar as he has been communicated to us, you're not likely to get that kind of question-provoking experience.

All of which is to say that gods which run you right up against major paradoxes when you follow in their footsteps are more likely to get you onto a mystic road, because they tug your mind into a mystic shape.

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On 1/26/2021 at 9:24 AM, Darius West said:

I 100% guarantee that is not the case.  Dayzatar is SUPPOSED to be THE Yelm Pantheon mystical tradition.  I don't want to do a literature search to prove the point, but I wouldn't raise the point if I didn't know it to be true.

I'd say the sources are a little mixed on that one.  At least if you count oral ones.  I can recall Greg on a couple of occasions saying "those guys are mystical materialists", and expanding on the point somewhat.  And then on another, having that quoted back to him by some obnoxious pedant -- not excluded to have been your present humble scribe -- and saying something along the lines of, "yeah well, I say a lot of things".

FWIW it has has a strong whiff of High Theism/self-sacrificial mysticism to me, at any rate.  Somewhat like initiating to one of the Greater Gods whose aspects you can get usable magic from...  only without the useful aspects.  (With all apologies for the nod to the Bad Old HW model.)

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IMO Dayzatar's realm is within view of the (face of) the Absolute, possibly something like the Face of Atrilith that Nenduren and his disciple Oorsu Sara achieved through Nenduren's practice of Stillness, probably called Ezelveztay by the Dara Happans. It also allows an almost unveiled view into the Void beyond the outermost border of the Universe, a stasis of spontaneous Creation and Uncreation.

Entering or even only glimpsing Dayzatars Otherworld requires some fortification of the mind, IMO. For the un-illuminated, it may be an austerity - an ordeal that may put them onto a path towards enlightenment.

No easy "snap, you're it" fast track illumination like the Nysaloran riddles, though.

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13 hours ago, Eff said:

Theism involves ritual submission to it, sorcery involves ritual domination of it, shamanism involves ritual equality with it... and mysticism says that there's no meaningful difference between This Side and the Otherside

Yes! And in the orthodox mystic view, they are ultimately both distractions from what really matters - however you express that transcendent reality, it transcends both. 
 

13 hours ago, Eff said:

Or to put it another way, mysticism allows you to disrupt the hierarchies of the Otherside rather than navigate within them.

Total agreement here too. 
And it is basically this which is the main reason why anyone who isn’t a mystic cares about mysticism. Because having the hierarchies of your Otherside disrupted (often to the point of having it wholesale rearranged) is both a glorious and terrifying prospect, especially if you are a theist who has made yourself submissive to it. This is one big reason why it’s the theist societies of central Genertela that have freaked out about it the most.
And it is a temptation for the mystic, because their seems an awful lot of useful things you can do... but it’s still ultimately a distraction, another way to ‘fail’, though a much more impressive one than just being crap at meditating. 

And right with you on the mystical associations of the Solar pantheon, too.

Dayzatar isn’t a god associated with mysticism in a practical way, just monasticism. He isn’t about knowledge of the self etc - he is about total devotion to knowledge of the Light. And it’s telling the Lunars have basically totally ignored the cult. And it’s about reinforcing the Solar worldview entirely - the importance of purity, 

Yelm is well understood to be associated with Illumination, he is one of the gods most often mentioned as Illuminated (whatever that means for a god), has a long (on and off) history with mysticism since the first Age. It’s telling he is one of the few gods with opposed Runes - he has Life and Death, just like the Seven Mothers, implying you can’t truly understand his mysteries without Illumination. And the great mystery of the One and the Many seems very much tied up with core mystic concerns. 
And, of course, the Lunars recognise Yelm’s importance and have recognised that mystic core of the cult in numerous ways. Of course, they’ve greatly enhanced it from what was there before - but the history of Illumination within the Yelm cult long precedes them.

And Antirius/Yelmalio has a long association with mysticism. The Hill of Gold, the central mystery of that cult, can be read as a mystic parable - it is not the winning of the battle that is the true victory, it is doing ones duty and the effect on ones self that is the true victory. And of course the reshaping of the cult into the mystic cult of Daysenarus, and becoming the primary martial arm of the Bright Empire in the process, is well known. With lingering effects on the cult - what are Gifts and Geases, but a theistic version of Austerities? 
 

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The Theist experience of magic is somewhat mixed - on the one hand, sacrifice implies a submission to the deity, and cult hierarchy does so, too. On the other hand, theist magic is the magic of identifying with your deity (or hero, or...) and its actions in the Godtime. When casting the magic, you become the deity, and the deity becomes you.

In short, theist magic is something you are. Sorcery is something you know. Animism is something you have.

Orthodox Mysticism might be summed up as "something you aren't, cannot know or own."

Nysaloran illumination starts with a jolt. You don't have to work for it. although saddling a RQ skill with a riddle, as in the CoT write-up, makes effort you put into the skill work towards an illumination success. On the whole this sounds pretty much like an immanent method).

 

Dayzatar may not be questioning the Solar superiority, but his actions may have been instrumental in overturning the reign of the White Queen and the Earth Walkers and instituting the reign of Brighteye and its unnatural Sunstop.

Nowadays, his role pretty much fits this description in the Guide: 

On 1/27/2021 at 11:42 AM, davecake said:

The magic provided is inconsequential and typically of no interest save to those who study it

Prayer can be a form of meditation, as can be breath exercise, sufi dancing, tea ceremony, calligraphy, sword smithing, ...

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I'm sorry to break this string of pondeous musings in the deep, murky waters with a quick question from the kiddies pool (no sarcasm intended).

Lunars are aware of the illusionary nature of the world and use strictures to ground them so that they don't lose their sanity. On the other hand, lunar illumination is all about embracing that nature and transcending artificial restrictions. Do I therefore assume correctly that illuminated lunars no longer need to adhere to their strictures? Would there still be some reason for them to do so?

The reason I'm asking is that I'm running a homebrew HQ2 where PCs have commitments (dos and don'ts) that yield hero points when fulfilled. The idea is that if my orlanthi PC Disrupts the Order of Things during the session, he gets a HP when he does it (the dos); and if my Inrippi Ontor initiate has not broken his vow to Not Refuse To Teach someone during the previous session, he starts the current session with a HP (the don'ts). Things such as geases and lunar strictures lend themselves well to this kind of system, but I'm wondering what will happen to my lunar PC upon Sevening. Would he lose his stricture altogether and have to find some other source of HPs? Would he be able to keep the stricture (thereby continuing to gain power, or in game terms HP, from it) but become able to break it without repercussions (i.e. not have to overcome a minor story obstacle to restore his vow)?

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50 minutes ago, Shimozakura said:

I'm sorry to break this string of pondeous musings in the deep, murky waters with a quick question from the kiddies pool (no sarcasm intended).

Lunars are aware of the illusionary nature of the world and use strictures to ground them so that they don't lose their sanity. On the other hand, lunar illumination is all about embracing that nature and transcending artificial restrictions. Do I therefore assume correctly that illuminated lunars no longer need to adhere to their strictures? Would there still be some reason for them to do so?

The reason I'm asking is that I'm running a homebrew HQ2 where PCs have commitments (dos and don'ts) that yield hero points when fulfilled. The idea is that if my orlanthi PC Disrupts the Order of Things during the session, he gets a HP when he does it (the dos); and if my Inrippi Ontor initiate has not broken his vow to Not Refuse To Teach someone during the previous session, he starts the current session with a HP (the don'ts). Things such as geases and lunar strictures lend themselves well to this kind of system, but I'm wondering what will happen to my lunar PC upon Sevening. Would he lose his stricture altogether and have to find some other source of HPs? Would he be able to keep the stricture (thereby continuing to gain power, or in game terms HP, from it) but become able to break it without repercussions (i.e. not have to overcome a minor story obstacle to restore his vow)?

Two answers:

1) Illuminated Lunars are capable of ignoring certain strictures, but what that means is that they have the perspective to question said strictures in an informed way. So they would likely keep to strictures that help them stay grounded in the material (if they're a PC rather than retiring to contemplate transcendence) and so in this particular case, you might say that the Irippi Ontor vow, which keeps you connected to other people and their needs, is still worth maintaining (and you still lose the HP if you start disregarding it, but with the option to restore that vow more easily with illuminated reasoning). 

2: Strictures, oaths, geases, are all personal relationships with a supernatural being, and Illumination doesn't affect their ability to know whether you've started disregarding the relationship and cut you off or penalize you. In other words, Irippi Ontor is also Illuminated and can scoff at your belief that maintaining your oath is hampering your spiritual development. But you might be able to argue with him successfully about it. 

Or, to put it another way, Illumination in my view allows you to understand restrictions as voluntary ones, but not automatically decouple them from the benefits you receive.

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so in my campaign recently, our party Trickster got Illuminated as part of a HeroQuest involving a Eurmali myth. We defined it in the moment as the character perhaps seeing the Fourth Wall, which was great for a laugh, but we're trying to wonder what Illumination would feel like and seem like to a Trickster character now. Any thoughts, anyone?

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13 hours ago, Shimozakura said:

Lunars are aware of the illusionary nature of the world and use strictures to ground them so that they don't lose their sanity. On the other hand, lunar illumination is all about embracing that nature and transcending artificial restrictions. Do I therefore assume correctly that illuminated lunars no longer need to adhere to their strictures?

The Lunar Way encompasses Illumination but only as one part of a greater way.

So, a Lunar illuminate should naturally fit in to the Lunar Way and does not need to break out of it.

Lunars go out of their way (!) to embrace and support their Illuminates, so why would an Illuminate need to try and break free?

13 hours ago, Shimozakura said:

Would there still be some reason for them to do so?

Because the Lunar Way is all about rules and Illumination is all about breaking, or ignoring, rules. Well, one side of Illumination is, anyway.

The Monster Empire is what you get when you remove the rules surrounding Illumination. It is dark side Illumination running wild and is similar to what happened with Gbaji in the First Age.

 

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5 hours ago, ZedAlpha said:

what Illumination would feel like and seem like to a Trickster character now. Any thoughts, anyone?

I would say.. a trickster without limit is just... a trickster

Maybe an illuminated trickster is able to do the opposite that a trickster may do, but as a trickster is able to do anything...

well maybe a trickster doing nothing ?

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10 hours ago, ZedAlpha said:

We defined it in the moment as the character perhaps seeing the Fourth Wall, which was great for a laugh, but we're trying to wonder what Illumination would feel like and seem like to a Trickster character now. Any thoughts, anyone?

Very sobering?

Here's the Trickster, playing pranks, doing whatever he wants, preaching that all of life's a joke or an illusion, and suddenly finds that everything he thought is True, and beneath it all is just... Chaos.  They might just find themselves paralyzed, or unable to invoke any magic, or unable to see the joy and fun in anything they did anymore.  It's still an Infinite Loop, and they are now equally bound to it and bored by it.  Unless they can find the Creator... and kill them.  Or find the Chaosium, the well at the deepest place in the Underworld where Chaos seeps in... and perhaps plug it up, or open it wider.  

Or they find themselves compelled to spread the Truth of Illumination so that everyone is equally miserable and the gods are revealed for the shams they are.

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yeah, according to the bare rules of HQ:G, that character can now use Law, Order, and Harmony runes. After talking it over with the player, he's of the mind that yeah, like you said, it'd be sobering. He'd be able to (and probably wholeheartedly willing to) uphold certain rules and societal structures. 

You can't transgress unless there's some sort of valid structure to transgress against, after all. 

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On 1/31/2021 at 4:04 AM, Shimozakura said:

Lunars are aware of the illusionary nature of the world and use strictures to ground them so that they don't lose their sanity. On the other hand, lunar illumination is all about embracing that nature and transcending artificial restrictions. Do I therefore assume correctly that illuminated lunars no longer need to adhere to their strictures? Would there still be some reason for them to do so?

Yes, Illuminated Lunars no longer need to adhere to their strictures. But it's not as simple as 'there are no longer any rules', more like you should now be able to see the reason for the rules, and to understand when they are necessary and when they aren't. You are out of school now. 

Using school here as a metaphor - while the Lunar cults have many practical magic powers, and are super useful for doing normal magic stuff, spiritually in the Lunar way they are training grounds for mysticism, when the real spiritual work starts. They are training grounds. There are many schools, based on the lives of known Lunar Immortals - some are strict (DX), some are not, some are only for certain kinds of people or specialise in teaching certain things. Once you "graduate", some rules you are encouraged to keep forever, some are no longer necessary, but either way no one can make you keep them all the time any more. 

So some rules are there to get you to being Illuminated, some are there to discourage you from going crazy when you do become Illuminated, some you should follow perhaps only to enco urage the not yet Illuminated to follow, but you can now break if it is appropriate, and so on. 

They don't take it on faith, though - further advancement in the Lunar Way (starting with joining the Red Goddess cult directly) is controlled by Examiners, who look at your achievements and behaviour and ask you deep questions, and decide if you are on the right path (and not obviously crazy and/or dangerous). Of course, some people say this prudent system has become hopelessly corrupted by mere politics and the pragmatic needs of the state and such, but in theory it prevents the Lunar war becoming a free for all. 

So - spiritual reasons to keep to strictures? Some of them are there to guide your post-Illuminated life, by giving you ethical rules to stick to that are supposed to be help your spiritual advancement. Eg it is good for Yanafals Tarnils to be honourable, even if it is longer enforced by spirits of retribution etc it is a good rule to follow. 

Practical reasons to keep to strictures? Failing to keep to some strictures, if known, may hinder your life in many practical ways but including your advancement in the Lunar way. If a YT does dishonorable things or disobeys military orders, an Irripi Ontor sage lies to other Lunars, and people know it, they are going to have a hard time holding on to their position, and a hard time advancing in the Lunar way unless they can explain it to the Examiners (though in both cases, a convincing 'for the good of the Empire' is very likely to get you off the hook). 

But some strictures aren't really necessary any more. Your Danfive Xaron ex-con is now redeemed, and not required to keep to the harsh rules of the cult any more. Your Irripi Ontor initiate may be told Lunar secrets, and told that lying to protect those secrets is expected if necessary. 

 

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19 minutes ago, davecake said:

Yes, Illuminated Lunars no longer need to adhere to their strictures. But it's not as simple as 'there are no longer any rules', more like you should now be able to see the reason for the rules, and to understand when they are necessary and when they aren't. You are out of school now. 

This.  This is exactly how I can explain Illumination to the Trickster’s player. Thank you!

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On 2/1/2021 at 4:14 AM, ZedAlpha said:

You can't transgress unless there's some sort of valid structure to transgress against, after all. 

Yes. I more and more suspect that the transgressive parts of the Lunar way are in part like the transgressive parts of tantra - they are there partly because breaking the taboos in a ritual context can liberate you from simplistic dualist spiritual ideas. And that most Gloranthan mysticism is essentially tantric, except maybe the Eastern orthodox, meditate all the time, guys. (Tantric meaning in the broader sense it is used in Hinduism and Buddhism, not simply the Western 'spiriitual sex' sense). But I have a lot more reading to do there. 

Though there are elements of both pure liberation (you can now break the rules because you can), and pragmatic acceptance of the nasty but useful (Chaos has a long history of being a way for the Lunars to defeat their enemies), and the Lunars have a complicated balancing act of the spiritual Lunar path vs the needs of the state vs not trying to restrict its spiritual elite from pursuing their own spiritual explorations. 

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On 2/1/2021 at 12:30 AM, jajagappa said:

Here's the Trickster, playing pranks, doing whatever he wants, preaching that all of life's a joke or an illusion, and suddenly finds that everything he thought is True, and beneath it all is just... Chaos. 

Or to put a different spin on it - the Trickster has spent all his life rebelling against authority. Now he sees that he was just playing the role of rebel against his own acceptance of the idea of authority. What he was rebelling against was an illusion, just like one of his own tricks, so what is he doing spending his life rebelling against a mirage? What is the point of that? He has that moment of oneness with the universe, and realises he has spent his life lying and hurting others for stuff that is ultimately meaningles, chasing illusory goals. 

He might find a reason to stay a Trickster, but maybe it will be a different one, such as spreading some spiritual insight. Or maybe he will, as some Illuminates do (especially those who do not have senior mystics around to guide them) reject the call to dissolve their ego in the oneness of the world, and just get the message that no one can make them do anything and now they can play much bigger tricks - the Lunars call that Occlusion, other traditions have other unpleasant names for it. 

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On 1/27/2021 at 10:11 PM, davecake said:

Sure, but do you think it is evil? Inimical? Intrinsically wrong? Like, literally you think we'd be better off not having developed it? 

Right, so you think it is practically problematic, but ... philosophically... you are ok with it? Somewhat... neutral? 

I would suggest that it is dangerous but necessary to study it.  Much can go wrong potentially.  Grave concern is not neutral.  The injunction to "know thine enemy" is not equanimity, even if the threat is essentially a mindless natural phenomenon.  If the skys start raining acid and dissolve your loved ones, would you be neutral? 

Also, radiotherapy is not something I would encourage anyone to have performed.  Being bombarded with localized ionizing radiation to cure a cancer that may well be caused by ionizing radiation seems like the horrors of medieval medicine to me.

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On 1/27/2021 at 10:00 PM, davecake said:

If you think ascetism and an obsession with purity and isolation makes mysticism, then you are on the wrong track. I mean, it would be a big surprise to medieval monastic orders that they aren't about worship. 

Ascetism is used by all forms of magic, and ritual purity seems to be related. Meditation likewise. He is certainly unworldly, but I think Dayzatar monks are trying to essentially arrange their entire life around worshipping Dayzatar. 

For a broad definition of 'mystic methods' you might say Dayzatar is using mythic methods for theist goals - but I'm not really sure there methods are mystic either, given that they basically spend their time in prayer. 

There are a lot of forms of mysticism that appear "wrong", but everyone has to make their own path, and every path is likely to include mis-steps.  

As to medieval mystics, well, just because they accept the idea of a personal god, doesn't mean they are not attempting to commune and achieve unity with the infinite.

As to Dayzatar's monks, in the RQ:Gods of Glorantha preview edition, on page 186, in the last sentence of the first paragraph it definitely says that Dayzatar's priests rely on the secrets of Mysticism beyond normal understanding to maintain their belief.

Now the fact that Solar Pantheon mysticism may have a different spin than that of the Eastern Pantheons is hardly surprising, given the huge distance separating them as well as the gulfs of culture and history.  It is possible to follow a mystical path for a vast number of reasons and to a vast number of outcomes.  Dayzatar's cult definitely has theistic elements and is part of a Theistic pantheon, but then mysticism is one of 4 magic styles, and even theist cults teach spirit magic and even sorcery on occasion (Lhankor Mhy and Chalana Arroy etc.), so why can't other hybrid forms exist that incorporate mysticism?  Well that's easy... we lack a magic system for mystics to draw upon.

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On 1/27/2021 at 9:42 PM, davecake said:

Well, yes. But are we then to assume that any mystic who is not walking around is therefore invalid? The point is, are his teachings still followable to achieve some mystic effect. 

I don't mean dead in a merely physical sense.  I mean dead like Latin is a dead language.  I mean that Nysalorism has a pathetic repertoire of mystical feats.

1.  The ability to detect other illuminates. 2.  Protection from divine judgement. 3.  The limited ability to pass on Nysalorism.

All this does is serve to turn illuminates into a form of mystical parasite that feeds on the worship of other gods.  The fact that Lunars are passing out tapeworms notwithstanding, this is an adjunct to chaos worship, not a mystical tradition.

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6 hours ago, Darius West said:

Also, radiotherapy is not something I would encourage anyone to have performed. 

OK, so we are veering close to something akin to anti-vaccination type of stuff, where you are wanting to say your opinions are more valid that medical experts. I don't think there is any further point in continuing discussion - we are unlikely to ever agree on minor points of Glorantha in that case. 

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