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I would have abandoned the Tarot scheme.  The major framing device for the organization of the Arkati cults (Arkat the Destroyer etc) I would have attributed to Halwal (in order words, the cults of Ar

I apologize for the length of this reply in advance.    It's hard to take this post seriously at all. "Chaos is definitely objectively the death of the world, or else Gloranthans would rev

I really like this turn in the thread because it raises the question of the scenarios people naturally gravitate toward when confronted with the possibility of a liberation of consciousness from norma

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On 8/17/2020 at 9:54 AM, Eff said:

It's hard to take this post seriously at all. "Chaos is definitely objectively the death of the world, or else Gloranthans would revere Wakboth as a great liberator" is quite simply devoid of logic. Wakboth is not Chaos as a whole. The objective truth of what Chaos is does not mean that Gloranthans have that same perspective on Chaos. And, though this is tiny compared to the yawning gaps elsewhere, even if Wakboth is Chaos as a whole (which I must emphasize is fairly obviously and overtly false within every source we have on Chaos) then even if Chaos is essential for the functioning of Glorantha, that doesn't mean that Wakboth would therefore be a "great liberator". Indeed, if Chaos were objectively the death of the world, then it would make more sense to worship Wakboth as a great liberator, as liberating souls from the gross matter they have been captured in, in a kind of cod-Gnosticism.

Wakboth holds the chaos rune, ergo, Wakboth IS chaos.  You say Wakboth is not all Chaos, but how certain of that are you?  Do you doubt that Wakboth can call the creatures of chaos to leap into his mouth to sustain him, but obliterate themselves in the process?  As to Wakboth liberating the creatures of Glorantha from their gross matter, well what about liberating minds from sanity, and for that matter, liberating those who exist into the blissful non-existence they knew before their birth?  In this sense the Crimson Bat is also a great liberator, but the teaching methods are a bit extreme, and you have to be a certain kind of mystic to appreciate the message.

On 8/17/2020 at 8:23 AM, Jape_Vicho said:

That is at least, questionable, and at most, just the opposite. Humans have existed way before laws, and all was fine and dandy back then (even better than now if you have a certain view of prehistory and the world).

I think you will find that humans have always been tribal and that tribes have laws, many of which are more strict than our own.

On 8/20/2020 at 10:58 PM, jajagappa said:

This is just totally off.  It works perfectly well as a statement about Occlusion though. Illumination is about experiencing the Other, experiencing your Shadow, and in most ways obliterating the self.  It's the realization that there are no "personal" goals.  You are Us, part of the Cosmic flow, if you will.  

It is faster to obliterate yourself by cutting your own throat.  Optionally, leaping into the mouth of the Crimson Bat works an awful lot better as it also removes that pesky ghost.  The truth is that there was never a self to obliterate, but that isn't the same as being at one with everything.  If there are no "personal goals" then what does it matter what other people do?  As to Experiencing the other, you do that every time you step outside your door. 

On 8/20/2020 at 6:16 AM, French Desperate WindChild said:

My new illumination way. There was no chaos until people were said there was chaos.  Then, Chaos was created by people believing this bad act they did attract chaos.  

if someone believes he is doing bad thing, he attracts chaos (remember how the succubus was born in sun county  scenario )

if someone does the same thing thab previously but believes it is good, then he doesn't attract chaos

if someone believes he is a bad guy, he becomes chaotic

we can conclude than destroy chaos is a very simple thing.

Just convince people that no acts can attract chaos.

Very simple, not easy, but very simple.

No. Chaos is about more than just a way of describing conflict.  Chaos is more than an arbitrary definitional system that you can re-categorize.  Chaos at some level can be described as a transgressive taboo that one should not perform, but that is not without foundation.  Chaos is a declaration of war on everything that lives.  Chaos is the acceptance of body warping mutations and diseases as your weapons.  Chaos is the rejection of all your tribe taught you in favor of betraying and destroying them.  To accept Chaos is to choose to become the enemy of everything.  Yes, you may form an alliance with other chaos monsters, but it is a temporary alliance that you will betray when it becomes convenient, and your fundamental aim is to become bigger than Wakboth before Wakboth escapes the Block.  Chaos is annihilation of everything, not mere evil.

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On 8/17/2020 at 9:30 AM, dumuzid said:

When did Glorantha exist before, or without, Chaos?  The Chaosium is the source of primal creative power, Chaos is the infinite from which form itself arose.  The trolls understand this: Bozkatang, the first true Chaos Fighter, faced and defeated the first demons born from the Chaosium long before Yelm drove the trolls aboveground.  Chaos cannot be allowed to win, but it is a necessary component of the Gloranthan cosmos.  Always has been.

I'm surprised you can't see why this is problematic.  Yes, the Primal Plasma was necessary for the growth of the world, but at a certain point, growth becomes cancer.  I think there are more than enough threats in Glorantha without chaos, so what is its real purpose?  Why is it necessary?  I think the allegory that "life is struggle" can be proven without recourse to a constant threat of universal annihilation.  the Primal Plasma was the building material of life, but the deities then had control over it and made it into useful things that fitted within a pattern.  Since the Unholy Trio polluted the Primal Plasma, it has brought nothing good to the world.  I would be more inclined to view Nysalor in a positive light if he had performed some sort of HQ to clean the Primal Plasma, but no, he simply said Chaos was fine as is and we should all learn to accept it.  This is a bit like when political parties stop talking about solving problems and start talking about problems being "issues".  The implication being that they have no answers.

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37 minutes ago, Darius West said:

Wakboth holds the chaos rune, ergo, Wakboth IS chaos.  You say Wakboth is not all Chaos, but how certain of that are you?  Do you doubt that Wakboth can call the creatures of chaos to leap into his mouth to sustain him, but obliyterate themselves in the process?  As to Wakboth liberating the creatures of Glorantha from their gross matter, well what about liberating minds from sanity, and for that matter, liberating those who exist into the blissful non-existence they knew before their birth?  In this sense the Crimson Bat is also a great liberator, but the teaching methods are a bit extreme, and you have to be a certain kind of mystic to appreciate the message.

A logical proof. 

Assume that if a god is described as holding a Rune, they are that Rune. 

1. Orlanth holds the Air Rune.

2. Barntar possesses the Air Rune.

3. Barntar is Orlanth.

4. Daga possesses the Air Rune. 

5. Daga is Orlanth. 

6. Barntar is Daga. 

Clearly, you are greatly Illuminated indeed. 

13 minutes ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

Guys the sun causes cancer and forest fires, the sun is evil, we must cancel the sun.

- the Rebel Gods, shortly before the Doom Conjunction and the death of Yelm.

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7 hours ago, jajagappa said:

This is just totally off.  It works perfectly well as a statement about Occlusion though.

Illumination is about experiencing the Other, experiencing your Shadow, and in most ways obliterating the self.  It's the realization that there are no "personal" goals.  You are Us, part of the Cosmic flow, if you will.  

Illumination makes occlusion possible, by giving illuminates a free pass to steal power from the gods, without fulfilling their end of the bargain. Its like giving people a card they can show if they want to steal your stuff. "'I'll have your car now thanks". Some people might be disciplined enough to keep that card in their pocket. But the temptation to help yourself to things you really want would be too much for most mortals. 

My question - why support the existence of that "your stuff is mine" card? Illumination is bad.

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6 hours ago, Darius West said:

As to Experiencing the other, you do that every time you step outside your door.

No, it is not.  Experiencing the Other is not about interacting, but understanding/becoming One with the Other.  That's central for instance to Yelm's revelations in Hell.

6 hours ago, Darius West said:

If there are no "personal goals" then what does it matter what other people do?

You realize that it doesn't matter.  And that you have a choice as to whether to make it matter or not - it's the same as Draconic entanglement.  But fundamentally it is a choice about what that existence will be, or won't be, that is neither bound by a limited view of Self, or defined by Others.

3 hours ago, EricW said:

Illumination makes occlusion possible, by giving illuminates a free pass to steal power from the gods, without fulfilling their end of the bargain.

I would put it more that Illumination reveals the possibility and potential of Occlusion.  That power exists even without Illumination - but you are simply much less likely to realize it.

6 hours ago, Darius West said:

Chaos is a declaration of war on everything that lives.

Yes, and it is also the "stuff" of Creation.  Without Chaos, there was no world to begin with, no world to form or fashion out of Chaos.  And, yes, it tends towards its original "non" form, destroying and obliterating that which was created.

 

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4 hours ago, EricW said:

Illumination makes occlusion possible, by giving illuminates a free pass to steal power from the gods, without fulfilling their end of the bargain. Its like giving people a card they can show if they want to steal your stuff. "'I'll have your car now thanks". Some people might be disciplined enough to keep that card in their pocket. But the temptation to help yourself to things you really want would be too much for most mortals. 

My question - why support the existence of that "your stuff is mine" card? Illumination is bad.

You could apply a lot of these points to swords and spears as well.

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On 8/17/2020 at 1:54 AM, Eff said:

Well, I was referring obliquely to being a polyamorous transgender lesbian.

Bloody hell, @Eff. And there I was thinking that being an illuminated Uroxi worshipper of Primal Chaos must be complicated...! 

What a great thread this is. And it's great that whether we embrace or flee freedom from social constraints, conflicting views can find confirmation and validation in Gloranthan myth. Surely that is a hallmark of great myths - the old stuff. 

For the record: a chaotic Stormbull illuminate strikes me as a perfectly valid life choice. Glorantha is our world to explore, experience, and understand the myriad possibilities. In-world dogmas might forbid it. But those dogmas too are there for us to explore, accept or reject. 

Eff's personal story reminded me of the answer to the munchkin Illuminate vs genuine Illuminate. From the Prince of Sartar: "They only wanted Freedom. You wanted Liberation."

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On 8/21/2020 at 10:19 AM, jajagappa said:

No, it is not.  Experiencing the Other is not about interacting, but understanding/becoming One with the Other.  That's central for instance to Yelm's revelations in Hell.

Well then that isn't "experiencing the other", that is "experiencing the other as self".  A fine definitional clarification, but an important one.

On 8/21/2020 at 10:19 AM, jajagappa said:

You realize that it doesn't matter.  And that you have a choice as to whether to make it matter or not - it's the same as Draconic entanglement.  But fundamentally it is a choice about what that existence will be, or won't be, that is neither bound by a limited view of Self, or defined by Others.

More likely everyone in the throes of an illumination experience says they think these things don't matter,  but after 36 hours of meditation they throw a fit when the pot of soup they prepared has been eaten without them despite the food potentially going to waste.  Such is their un-attachment.  It isn't the grand ideas an great challenges that wear people down, it is the grind of daily living that does it.  Consider Howard Hughes dying a neglected old man in a multi-million dollar apartment he owned, not that he was illuminated, but as an illustration of how daily life does a number on people.

On 8/21/2020 at 10:19 AM, jajagappa said:

Yes, and it is also the "stuff" of Creation.  Without Chaos, there was no world to begin with, no world to form or fashion out of Chaos.  And, yes, it tends towards its original "non" form, destroying and obliterating that which was created.

This just further proves that the nature of chaos is inimical to all existence which was my point all along.  They say chaos created the cosmic egg, but preface it by saying that even the gods don't know, so at best this is an opinion.

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On 8/21/2020 at 4:07 AM, Eff said:

A logical proof. 

Assume that if a god is described as holding a Rune, they are that Rune. 

1. Orlanth holds the Air Rune.

2. Barntar possesses the Air Rune.

3. Barntar is Orlanth.

4. Daga possesses the Air Rune. 

5. Daga is Orlanth. 

6. Barntar is Daga. 

Clearly, you are greatly Illuminated indeed. 

Incorrect.  Orlanth holds the true Air rune, not an emanation thereof.  Barntar possesses an emanation of the Air rune.  Daga possesses an emanation of the Air rune.  Orlanth is the Demiurge of his pantheon because he holds the power from which the others derive their power.  Orlanth likely obtained his rune after the death of Umath, his father.

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4 hours ago, Darius West said:

Incorrect.  Orlanth holds the true Air rune, not an emanation thereof.  Barntar possesses an emanation of the Air rune.  Daga possesses an emanation of the Air rune.  Orlanth is the Demiurge of his pantheon because he holds the power from which the others derive their power.  Orlanth likely obtained his rune after the death of Umath, his father.

Well, that's what he wants you to believe.

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11 hours ago, Darius West said:

Well then that isn't "experiencing the other", that is "experiencing the other as self".  A fine definitional clarification, but an important one.

Yelm encounters Rebellus Terminus in his realm causing Disorder.  Yelm interacts with the Storm God, ultimately sending him away, possibly locking him in Hell among the Strange Gods.  Yelm has encountered and interacted with the Storm.  There is no illumination.  Yelm does not gain illumination until he is dead, and sent away from the world, locked in Hell.  He is now one of the many, no longer the one. It is where he experiences Illumination.

11 hours ago, Darius West said:

This just further proves that the nature of chaos is inimical to all existence which was my point all along. 

It is inimical, and also fundamental, and the stuff from which Creation comes. 

My general conclusion is that we have very different ideas to both Illumination and the nature of Chaos and further debate is unlikely to change either.  

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17 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

It is inimical, and also fundamental, and the stuff from which Creation comes. 

 

My earlier example of the sun wasn't just tongue-in-cheek. The Sun is an ongoing nuclear explosion that would absolutely skin this planet of every living cell if it was not kept at bay by a number of coincidences. It would boil the seas, scorch organic chemicals, and tear apart the very chemical bonds in our substance. In fact, it's not even an IF, it's a WHEN, because it WILL do this. Eventually. 

However, if it weren't for that slight sliver of its energy that passes through our magnetic fields and our atmosphere, life here would be impossible. It caused us. 

Obviously, Chaos as it manifests in beasts and thinking beings is more actively malicious than sunlight, and the necessity of sunlight is more overtly obvious to everyone than that of Chaos, but I don't think it's a terrible comparison otherwise. 

 

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On 8/29/2020 at 11:37 AM, jajagappa said:

and also fundamental, and the stuff from which Creation comes. 

Or is it?  This is something even the gods are on record as saying that they don't actually know.  If the gods don't actually know, and if travel to the void beyond the Sky Dome neither annihilates you nor gives you chaos features, but the primal plasma harvested from the Chaosium does, then what is really going on? 

I see the cosmic void as being very distinct from the Chaosium.    Absence is not chaos,  in fact it is closer to the Infinity Rune imo.  The void is a place of cosmic dragons and mystics who have refuted the world.  I suspect that if you have access to Air or some magical proxy thereof that you can walk on the Sky Dome.

The  Chaosium is a much smaller place, and is likely the origin of all sources of Chaos Slime.  It was once the primal plasma, but was polluted by the Unholy Trio, and is now where the Devil is reborn every 600 years and the source of all Chaos Features.   Old stories told us that beyond the dome of the world lies chaos, and Glorantha is effectively a bubble floating in that chaos, but the Solar Myth Cycles tell us something different.   At ground level it seems to be a different story.  Trolls fight chaos incursions at the edge of the world, that come through the cracks in the world.  Or do they?  How is it that burbling pits of chaos emerge?  Based on what has been revealed elsewhere, this seems to be associated with the remains of dead chaos deities, who are still channeling the powers of their emanation of the chaos rune.  All immortal beings seem to come back from the dead via their remains to some degree, much like Shamanic self resurrection.

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1 hour ago, coffeemancer said:

any examples of Nysalorian riddles?

HQG p.203 notes: Each Nysalorean Riddle consists of a formal question and a formal answer, and is generally accompanied by extensive commentary. The questions, answers, and commentary are believed to have been handed down orally through the periodic Second and Third Age suppression of the Nysalor cult. Though still transmitted orally in many places,
a number of written versions are studied in the Lunar Empire. The most common version lists 133 Riddles; other versions list as few as 117 and as many as 144.

The only two I recall are these two:

Cults of Terror p.85:  Move Quietly riddle:  "What is the difference between a Silent Movement?"  A: "The sound of a man dying."

HQG p.203: Riddle 19: "What is the difference between virtuous intention and virtuous action?" A: "Power" [Since it's HQG, it's not explicitly linked to a skill.]

 

 

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1 hour ago, coffeemancer said:

Hm, ok. which other situations would increase someones illumination? I think our sorcerer might slowly get on the path

A character I played added a bit to their Illumination score by having a conversation with Argrath White Bull

he also received directed training towards Illumination at the House of Black Arkat

a few magically charged encounters between them and powerful draconic manifestations (negotiating Argan Argar Equal Exchanges with dragonewt priests and dream dragons) advanced their progress toward Illumination even further.

That same character actually accomplished their illumination through contemplation in a refurbished Storm Age dragonewt meditation chamber during Sacred Time.  i would describe their approach as 'draconic mysticism with Black Arkati characteristics,' which is a very particular path to the One

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1 hour ago, coffeemancer said:

Hm, ok. which other situations would increase someones illumination?

Secrets of Dorastor has some examples. Here are some ideas:

  • Answering Nysalor riddles
  • Performing a certain act in a certain place (For example, touching the walls of the Puzzle Canal on the Big Rubble)
  • Watching a sacred mystery play
  • Listening to Nysalor preachers
  • Learning from an Illuminated Master
  • Being taught by Lunar Examiners
  • Meeting an aspect of Gbaji/Nysalor/Rashoran on the Spirit Plane
  • Performing an act that expands the mind (Staring into the Void, Contemplating the All)
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23 minutes ago, soltakss said:

Secrets of Dorastor has some examples. Here are some ideas:

  • Answering Nysalor riddles
  • Performing a certain act in a certain place (For example, touching the walls of the Puzzle Canal on the Big Rubble)
  • Watching a sacred mystery play
  • Listening to Nysalor preachers
  • Learning from an Illuminated Master
  • Being taught by Lunar Examiners
  • Meeting an aspect of Gbaji/Nysalor/Rashoran on the Spirit Plane
  • Performing an act that expands the mind (Staring into the Void, Contemplating the All)

what about getting Occluded?

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