Jump to content

Recommended Posts

1 hour ago, Storm Khan said:

I always thought that the central Illumination for Glorantha was that of Nysalor / Gbaji, whereby Law and Chaos were declared The Same Thing.

Illuminated Lunars believe this, making way for a fatal degree of relativism, fatal in that it would accept the undoing of Time and the destruction of the cosmos.

After all, nothing really matters, right?

 

It's the central Illumination for Peloria and Dragon Pass; it's rather less important in the East, West, or South, which have their own illumination.  And don't have the same understanding of / issues with Chaos.

 

 

 

  • Like 3
Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Replies 391
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Top Posters In This Topic

Popular Posts

I would have abandoned the Tarot scheme.  The major framing device for the organization of the Arkati cults (Arkat the Destroyer etc) I would have attributed to Halwal (in order words, the cults of Ar

I apologize for the length of this reply in advance.    It's hard to take this post seriously at all. "Chaos is definitely objectively the death of the world, or else Gloranthans would rev

But Chaos isn't the death of the world. Absence of Chaos in Glorantha would mean its death. So at a basic, fundamental level, that spiritual message carries an important truth about the universe. Is t

Posted Images

On 1/1/2021 at 3:18 PM, Alex said:

I think that's probably of limited practical use.  While I dislike the idea that every sort of mysticism 'is' the same thing as Illumination, I'm not sure if the magical manifestations of mysticism are drastically incompatible with how that's cast in rules terms.  Maybe in the form of sub-illumination-like disciplines allowing the likes of martial artists, physical adepts, and such like, to use mashups of the familiars forms of magic in externally unfamiliar but internally somewhat standardised ways.

Well at the moment, what we sadly have is a situation where mysticism "is" illumination within the RQG rules.  I think this situation does everyone a disservice.  To my mind Lunar Illumination =/= Larnstingism=/=Draconic Wisdom =/= Irensavalism =/=Cult of Dayzatar =/= Kralori Mysticism =/= Eastern Isles Mysticism.  All these traditions should be treated as somewhat similar but discrete.  I also suspect that Mysticism is somewhat more associated with Hero Status, as it seems that being able to transcend the world is part of what makes a Hero able to interact with the mythic realms of their belief system.  HeroQuest and Mongoose both had rules about Mysticism btw, but I think we can do better.

  • Like 3
Link to post
Share on other sites
17 minutes ago, Darius West said:

To my mind Lunar Illumination =/= Larnstingism=/=Draconic Wisdom =/= Irensavalism =/=Cult of Dayzatar =/= Kralori Mysticism =/= Eastern Isles Mysticism. 

HeroQuest: Glorantha treated this by adding the infinity rune to the rune that best described the path to Illumination (p204) which is sufficient to distinguish all those different paths of illumination (Lunars - Moon Rune, Larnsting Storm or perhaps Movement Rune, Draconic Wisdom - Dragonewt Rune etc).  WHich I think is sufficient to distinguish between them.

Irensavelism is not Illumination but a lesser form of consciousness that is obliquely described in the RQG sorcery rules.  

 

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
23 hours ago, metcalph said:

Irensavelism is not Illumination but a lesser form of consciousness that is obliquely described in the RQG sorcery rules.  

I daresay you are correct insofar as the rules are concerned, but it would be supremely odd for the West not to have a school of mysticism and Irensavalism more than fits that bill, given its similarities to Catharism.

Link to post
Share on other sites
12 minutes ago, Darius West said:

 but it would be supremely odd for the West not to have a school of mysticism and Irensavalism more than fits that bill, given its similarities to Catharism.

That would be the Arkati, the Cult of Silence and apparently the God Learners.  While some Hrestoli would be illuminates, it would only be a minor practice among them IMO.

Link to post
Share on other sites
53 minutes ago, metcalph said:

That would be the Arkati, the Cult of Silence and apparently the God Learners.  While some Hrestoli would be illuminates, it would only be a minor practice among them IMO.

I am not talking about illumination, I am talking about mysticism, the 4th type of magic in Glorantha.  I strongly suggest that Irensavalism sounds a lot more like a sorcerous branch of mystic practice than any form of sorcery.  There is some overlap between all the schools of magic, and this one area where sorcery and mysticism overlap imo, as what else do you call going on a journey of the inner spirit to establish contact with a higher manifestation of the Invisible God?  Sorcery, but not as the rules know it.  I also think that Illumination is all but worthless as a means by which to understand mysticism as a school of magic in Glorantha.  Even Immanent Mastery is a better example (and it is not a good example either imo).

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Darius West said:

I am not talking about illumination, I am talking about mysticism

I think this is a very relevant distinction. It short-changes mysticism dramatically to have it be all about Illumination. 

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
On 1/2/2021 at 6:03 AM, Storm Khan said:

I always thought that the central Illumination for Glorantha was that of Nysalor / Gbaji, whereby Law and Chaos were declared The Same Thing.

Illuminated Lunars believe this, making way for a fatal degree of relativism, fatal in that it would accept the undoing of Time and the destruction of the cosmos.

After all, nothing really matters, right?

 

I do think this thinking is a trap that people unintentionally fall into, leading them into believing Illumination to be a thing that it (at least in my view) clearly wasn't intended to be by the concept's creator (ie. Greg). I wouldn't really mind it, as YGWV and all, but it does seem to lead a lot of forum discussions into a particular mold of Illumination-bashing.

Oddly this reminds me a lot of certain critiques of Buddhist thought (and I'm mildly loathe to bring in iRL religion here, but this is particularly appropriate), where the Buddhist notion of sunyata (ie. emptiness) is sometimes stated to lead to an utter nihilism in its desire to reject eternalism. Famously, there is a very influential rebuttal to this by Nagarjuna, stating that Buddhism is the Middle Way, neither leading to an eternalism nor nihilism.

I think that's an idea that should be carefully considered in also understanding Illumination.

Now it is important to also say that I don't think that the criticisms levelled on Illumination are always wrong and indeed sometimes in-setting it does lead to horrible outcomes, solipsism and nihilism, chaos, etc. (which is also useful and fun for roleplaying/storytelling purposes), but this isn't intended to be 100% of the time and believing it to be leads to a misunderstanding of Illumination that in my view doesn't do justice to the setting or the concept.

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

I think this is a very relevant distinction. It short-changes mysticism dramatically to have it be all about Illumination. 

I agree. 

I don't know about others, but I'd definitely prefer if Glorantha wasn't just 80-90% theism and animism with sorcery and mysticism as these tiny, tiny outliers. So making less restrictive, less imposing versions of them seems the path, at least for me. Minor sorcerous secrets for a carpenter's guild. Low mysticism for a martial arts school. That sort of thing.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, Grievous said:

Now it is important to also say that I don't think that the criticisms levelled on Illumination are always wrong and indeed sometimes in-setting it does lead to horrible outcomes, solipsism and nihilism, chaos, etc. (which is also useful and fun for roleplaying/storytelling purposes), but this isn't intended to be 100% of the time and believing it to be leads to a misunderstanding of Illumination that in my view doesn't do justice to the setting or the concept.

Most characters start, from what I've seen of the backgrounds, in a Lunar-bad, Illumination-bad stance, but hey, it is your game to mold. I would agree that there is sufficient evidence to lean Illumination away from the ravages of Chaos if that is the sort of game you're planning.

My initial comment was never intended to reflect on any real world religion / philosophy, btw. Strictly hypothetical Glorantha-speech.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

The game I run is following a group of Eaglebrown Warlocks traveling down the Zola Fel.  Their journey is a this-world heroquest intended to support the White Bull's campaign to seize Corflu.  Two of the warlocks engaged "Judge" Dahak, the weird, infamous sorcerer of Old Pavis, in debate during an encounter along the river, and came away from the meeting with their first % points of Illumination.

I ran the encounter in the spirit of the sort of confrontations with demons and fierce enemy gods would-be Lunar illuminates are supposed to face in the process of Sevening, abetted by the great Change power of the quest they're embarked on and the draconic power underpinning the Corflu campaign.  Though Argrath has set set events in motion, the powers directly facilitating this moment of cosmic awareness are the Zola Fel (who in my Glorantha at least had elements of draconic awareness even before the EWF came during Pavis's heyday); by extension the Cleansed One, the purified broo hero or demigod of the river; and Pamalt, who was present in the form of an Agimori shaman-priest who mediated the warlocks' exchange with Dahak.

In line with the discussion of expanding mysticism as a force and practice in the setting I'm toying with the idea of developing a Pamaltelan strand of mystic illumination for my campaign based philosophically around the Necklace of Pamalt and Right Footpath.  According to Revealed Mythology, the Necklace is the network of friendly gods and spirits Pamalt made by his good deeds and example.  Pamalt is distinguished among the gods by being the most upright chieftain,

"His reputation is spotless and his justice is flawless. For those reasons, he attracts many other great and heroic individuals to his tripod and staff. His closest advisors are present in his Necklace[...]" Revealed Mythologies p.41

The Right Footpath is the Pamaltelan 'proper way of life,'

"In addition to organizing the living materials and principles of the peoples, it preaches tolerance of strangers, many methods to dispel violence, and a tradition of ease and pleasure in the environment." RM p.64.

As a mystical tradition, I see the Necklace of Pamalt as a sort of charismatic bridge between animism and theism.  Spiritually and functionally, I see the tradition operating as an effort to form new Necklaces within Time in the same fashion as Pamalt--by behaving honorably and setting a good example.  Through just and upright behavior an illuminate aspires to achieve Pamalt's position of oneness and connectivity with all elements and realities.  Mechanically, I could see a Pamaltelan illuminate learning to earn rune spells from the cults of their allies to store in their CHA, or the power to call on the rune points of their allies to stack their spells.

 

  • Thanks 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
17 hours ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

True, but that is a culturally defined view. As is every other view, of course.

My plan is to start my PC's in the 'Lunar Bad' perspective and gradually push to "Wait, are we getting as bad as the Lunars?" The tension of trying to pull back and find a middle ground, and find a solution (likely a Heroquest(s)) while both sides are trying to kill them should be cool.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Storm Khan said:

My plan is to start my PC's in the 'Lunar Bad' perspective and gradually push to "Wait, are we getting as bad as the Lunars?" The tension of trying to pull back and find a middle ground, and find a solution (likely a Heroquest(s)) while both sides are trying to kill them should be cool.

Definitely sounds like a fun plan, and something you can use Argrath's burgeoning, eh, "radicalization" for.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
On 8/17/2020 at 7:46 AM, jajagappa said:
On 8/16/2020 at 7:47 PM, Darius West said:

listic.  Yes, in life as in RPGs that mirror life, you need to choose between obeying the laws and scruples of your society or being an opportunistic psychopath/narcissistic criminal 

Sorry, no.  Black and white thinking like that is false in real life and false in Gloranthan Illumination. 

Indeed. And if you really think that obeying the laws and scruples of your society is so important that you must stamp out and destroy the things that allow you to question them... Ompalam invites you to subscribe to his newletter... 

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
On 1/3/2021 at 5:54 PM, Darius West said:

I am not talking about illumination, I am talking about mysticism, the 4th type of magic in Glorantha.  I strongly suggest that Irensavalism sounds a lot more like a sorcerous branch of mystic practice than any form of sorcery.  There is some overlap between all the schools of magic, and this one area where sorcery and mysticism overlap imo, as what else do you call going on a journey of the inner spirit to establish contact with a higher manifestation of the Invisible God?  Sorcery, but not as the rules know it.

I think that Irensavalism can have connections to Illumination, but post-Arkat they are concealed and not overt. I think they are still there - but you have to know where to look (it seems obvious to me as an outsider that Talor is Illuminated, and his Apocypha contains some hints about Illumination (and is part of the modern Loskalm Canon), and it is well hidden from the laity. First, prove yourself as wise enough to learn sorcery, then explore the gnostic wisdom, only when you have fully understood Joy (and submitted to many examinations of the spirit) can you then be trusted to experiment with the secret doctrines - only then can they be sure that you will not fall to the Nysaloran temptation, but correctly approach the mystic secrets correctly. 

I do think that Irensavalist sorcery is substantially just sorcery, Irensavalism is mostly different from general Hrestoli methods in attitude, differing in method only at the highest levels. Something very insightful Greg said after he had been thinking about mysticism a while was that all forms of magic should ultimately have a transcendent mystic goal (the One/Kiona/First Action etc for Malkionism) if they are not to be ultimately a failure (certainly Malkioni who seek Absolute Truth), but it only counts as mysticism the magic system if you use mystic methods. Irensavalism thinks that the correct uses of sorcery are either to further understand and use the Intellect ( eg Zendamalthan school, which loves abstract intellectual sorcery (like maths) and rejects empiricism), or learn about and defeat the traps of the physical world that can undermine the spirit (eg the Furlandan School). But it is largely attitude, because sorcery itself does not distinguish intent - eg the spells of the Furlandan school that are intended for overcoming spirits that plague the community and banishing them (eg of disease or passion) can also be used to bind them and use them as magical weapons. Still, I suspect the Irensavalists think Elemental sorcery is discouraged as being of limited spiritual value, and its practical value is just another temptation of the demiurge, and there are a few other aspects of it that distinguish it. 

On 1/3/2021 at 5:54 PM, Darius West said:

I also think that Illumination is all but worthless as a means by which to understand mysticism as a school of magic in Glorantha. 

 

Well, it is tricky - because rules wise, Illumination is mysticism the magic system, more or less. Mystic magic = mysticism as method = Illumination, to a rough first approximation. Now, there are probably a few bits here and there that add on to that (Eastern orthodox mysticism might have access to Illumination powers not achievable by Nysaloran or draconic methods? Draconic likewise?), and there is certainly a big richness in different traditions in both what they think is the right thing to do once you are Illuminated, how you get there, what other forms of magic they use (the only 'pure' mystics are maybe the guys who just sit and meditate all day and do no other magic at all), and so on. The real trick to understanding Illumination via the Nysalor cult is understanding that Nysalor and Arkat, according to game mechanics, use the same mystic methods, it is the attitude and surrounding traditions that differ. And the same, more or less, for all the other mystics too. 

And part of that is that, yes, Illumination can be very useful for being a munchkin who accumulates power, and uses the transcendance of the world to justify any arbitrarily awful behaviour, and can lead to egotism and callousness. It's also notable in real world mysticism (not all of which Greg would classify as mysticism), egotism and narcissism etc are not exactly unknown among real world would be mystics. Failed mystics are terribly dangerous people—and this applies in the real world too, the madness around the downfall of the Osho/Rajneeshee cult, for example—but of course far more so in a world where the magic powers gained from it are very real.

The big takeaway from mentioning Arkat in the Nysalor writeup, which I think is essential, is that there are people who see this temptation clearly, and believe that Illumination has spiritual worth but misuse must be guarded against. Nysaloran Illumination (at least in its modern, post-Nysalor, form) differs from other forms of Illumination in only one fundamental way - it has a method of easy teaching and broad transmission. Most other forms of Illumination (eg Arkati, Eastern orthodox forms) think this is a terrible idea, and that teaching random people mystic insight who are not otherwise prepared for it is a terrible idea. The problem with Nysalorism as a form of Illumination is around its attitudes and organisation. 

Greg has said Nysalorism is a failed form of mysticism. But I don't think that's because there is anything particularly broken about their form of Illumination - I think it's because, without useful teachings about how to prepare people for mysticism, or what to do with it other than break free of the constraints of the gods teachings, it is a recipe for mass production of failed mystics, even if a few may grope their way to mystic success. Maybe it would be different when Nysalor was alive, but then again, maybe not that much - it does seem that they didn't have much of a plan for acquiring greater mystic insight beyond 'hang out with Nysalor personally', and the idea that your cool mystic insights and powers could be used in battle to defeat your enemies seems to have been accepted by everyone in the Bright Empire from Nysalor down.

The Lunars certainly think themselves smarter than this, and have a very different system in some ways (once you have become sufficiently magical, just retire to the Moon once you are ready for further mystic insight!), but it's very easy to argue that they are also in the 'mass production of failed mystics' business. They do understand the problem in a way, and call it Occlusion, but they have also allowed the system that is supposed to guard against it to become corrupted to mundane political purpose, and encouraged the exploitation of mystic insight for mundane/magical power (the Original Sin of failed mystics), just a little more restricted than Nysalorism. So the Empire has corrupted the mystic system - and the drastic efforts by JarEel, Great Sister, and others to fix this basic problem is the core of the Lunar Empire Hero Wars story, IMO. 

FWIW, I think that this basic theme - mysticism is fine, but using it for munchkin purposes both totally works, and leads to failure as a mystic, is a consistent theme through most of Gloranthan mysticism, including Nysalor, the Lunars, the EWF, Sheng, etc.

So Darius, when you keep going on about Illumination being just  a recipe for munchkinism - you aren't 100% wrong, but you are 50% wrong, and that cuts so much of the richness, both in terms of how it relates to real mysticism, AND in how it drives cool Gloranthan gaming and metaplot themes. 

  • Like 3
Link to post
Share on other sites
33 minutes ago, davecake said:

The Lunars certainly think themselves smarter than this, and have a very different system in some ways (once you have become sufficiently magical, just retire to the Moon once you are ready for further mystic insight!), but it's very easy to argue that they are also in the 'mass production of failed mystics' business. They do understand the problem in a way, and call it Occlusion, but they have also allowed the system that is supposed to guard against it to become corrupted to mundane political purpose, and encouraged the exploitation of mystic insight for mundane/magical power (the Original Sin of failed mystics), just a little more restricted than Nysalorism. So the Empire has corrupted the mystic system - and the drastic efforts by JarEel, Great Sister, and others to fix this basic problem is the core of the Lunar Empire Hero Wars story, IMO. 

100% this. Also, recognise that the Kafkaesque irrationality, Catch-22 reasoning and seemingly-meaningless slogans of the Lunar bureaucracy are Riddles* in themselves: the brute power of a totalitarian ideological state, wielded deliberately so as to break minds open to Cosmic Truth.


* (wrapped in a Mystery, inside an Enigma, naturally)

Edited by Nick Brooke
  • Like 4
Link to post
Share on other sites
35 minutes ago, Nick Brooke said:

100% this. Also, recognise that the Kafkaesque irrationality, Catch-22 reasoning and seemingly-meaningless slogans of the Lunar bureaucracy are Riddles* in themselves: the brute power of a totalitarian ideological state, wielded deliberately so as to break minds open to Cosmic Truth.


* (wrapped in a Mystery, inside an Enigma, naturally)

I suspect it is worse than that Nick. The average Lunar scribe (because that is what a bureaucrat is) is an Irrippi Ontor initiate (or maybe a Seven Mothers initiate in the Provinces), and not a Red Goddess initiate. There's a top tier of illuminated priests and Rune Lords that spout all sorts of mystical Lunar gibberish and the scribes dutiful try to reproduce it (although plenty of errors creep in as the scribes edit things that are obviously wrong or make no sense).

Jeff

  • Like 3
Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, davecake said:

 

The big takeaway from mentioning Arkat in the Nysalor writeup, which I think is essential, is that there are people who see this temptation clearly, and believe that Illumination has spiritual worth but misuse must be guarded against. Nysaloran Illumination (at least in its modern, post-Nysalor, form) differs from other forms of Illumination in only one fundamental way - it has a method of easy teaching and broad transmission. Most other forms of Illumination (eg Arkati, Eastern orthodox forms) think this is a terrible idea, and that teaching random people mystic insight who are not otherwise prepared for it is a terrible idea. The problem with Nysalorism as a form of Illumination is around its attitudes and organisation. 

Greg has said Nysalorism is a failed form of mysticism. But I don't think that's because there is anything particularly broken about their form of Illumination - I think it's because, without useful teachings about how to prepare people for mysticism, or what to do with it other than break free of the constraints of the gods teachings, it is a recipe for mass production of failed mystics, even if a few may grope their way to mystic success. Maybe it would be different when Nysalor was alive, but then again, maybe not that much - it does seem that they didn't have much of a plan for acquiring greater mystic insight beyond 'hang out with Nysalor personally', and the idea that your cool mystic insights and powers could be used in battle to defeat your enemies seems to have been accepted by everyone in the Bright Empire from Nysalor down.

The Lunars certainly think themselves smarter than this, and have a very different system in some ways (once you have become sufficiently magical, just retire to the Moon once you are ready for further mystic insight!), but it's very easy to argue that they are also in the 'mass production of failed mystics' business. They do understand the problem in a way, and call it Occlusion, but they have also allowed the system that is supposed to guard against it to become corrupted to mundane political purpose, and encouraged the exploitation of mystic insight for mundane/magical power (the Original Sin of failed mystics), just a little more restricted than Nysalorism. So the Empire has corrupted the mystic system - and the drastic efforts by JarEel, Great Sister, and others to fix this basic problem is the core of the Lunar Empire Hero Wars story, IMO. 

The heart of the problem of incorporating mysticism in Glorantha is that a good mystic is a lousy PC - they stay in their monastery / cavern / pillartop / mountintop and they pursue enlightenment until they join with the godhead/dragons/chaos/a huge can of whipped cream.  

At some level, any PC mystic has to be a failed mystic, or just seeking enlightenment.  Because enlightenment should disconnect you from 'this world' (Glorantha) and connect you to a higher reality, which is what matters.  IF you're using your mystical powers to change the world, you're doing it wrong.

That being said, there are degrees of failure.  Mysticism in Kralorela only seems to have really been badly abused by the God-Learners, though maybe we just don't have enough data.  Leaving aside my own Kralorelan headcanons, there's nobody in Kralorelan history, except Sheng Seleris, who achieves Maximum Bad Mysticism.

Lunar illumination provides a moral framework, though Lunar illumination does cause people to play with fire.

Then there's the Nysalorian illumination, which is pretty much Nysalor screaming ,"FLY MY WINGED MONKEYS OF ENLIGHTENMENT, FLY", which is more less like giving out bombs to everyone to play with.

Then we get the levels of full crazy town failed mystics.  Arkat laying waste to entire countries.  The EWF deciding that turning Genertla and all its inhabitants into a giant dragon is a really good idea.  Sheng Seleris.

 

  • Like 1
  • Thanks 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, John Biles said:

The heart of the problem of incorporating mysticism in Glorantha is that a good mystic is a lousy PC - they stay in their monastery / cavern / pillartop / mountintop and they pursue enlightenment until they join with the godhead/dragons/chaos/a huge can of whipped cream. 

Well, you can be a mighty Illuminated hero, just as Krishna explains in the Bhavagad Gita - just you have to treat Illumination as a source of insight and guidance, rather than a source of cool exploits of the magic system, and that is an annoyingly tempting line to cross, and in practice somewhat subjective. 

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, John Biles said:

That being said, there are degrees of failure.  Mysticism in Kralorela only seems to have really been badly abused by the God-Learners, though maybe we just don't have enough data.  Leaving aside my own Kralorelan headcanons, there's nobody in Kralorelan history, except Sheng Seleris, who achieves Maximum Bad Mysticism.

Yeah, I think Sheng is Maximum Bad Mysticism, not just getting to be about as accomplished a mystic as you can be before he fails, but also finding pretty much the nastiest version of a magical doctrine you can get, with his 'life is slavery, torture is strength, civilisation is weakness' stuff. I think the Kralorelans are mostly pretty much on the path of very dubious mystic abuse, though, by building an Empire of temporal power on dragon magic. They have a whole system they justify to themselves, of course, reshaping the otherworld (the Summerland heaven etc) for their purposes,  but is it a mystically valid system?

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites
12 hours ago, davecake said:

Yeah, I think Sheng is Maximum Bad Mysticism, not just getting to be about as accomplished a mystic as you can be before he fails, but also finding pretty much the nastiest version of a magical doctrine you can get, with his 'life is slavery, torture is strength, civilisation is weakness' stuff. I think the Kralorelans are mostly pretty much on the path of very dubious mystic abuse, though, by building an Empire of temporal power on dragon magic. They have a whole system they justify to themselves, of course, reshaping the otherworld (the Summerland heaven etc) for their purposes,  but is it a mystically valid system?

Sheng Seleris... it's as if you took the Son of Sam, then you trained him to build nukes, then were surprised when this ended horribly.

 

  • Haha 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
On 1/3/2021 at 5:54 PM, Darius West said:

Even Immanent Mastery is a better example (and it is not a good example either imo).

 

Immanent Mastery, by Greg's definition, is not mysticism because it doesn't use mystic methods at all. It uses pretty straight forward Rune Magic mostly, even though it has mystic goals. 

And almost everyone outside the cult would say their goals are misguided, misunderstood, and mystically pointless - the basic idea is that, rather than doing all that Darudic dragon mysticism sitting around and meditating stuff that seems so dull, and trying to transform your soul into a draconic one, just turn your body into a draconic one instead. Surely, once your body is that of a dragon, you'll get a dragon soul naturally by no perceivable mechanism, as explained by the cults vast reams of cool sounding but opaque and nonsensical babble. 

Though the Exarchs consider them idiots, they do find them a potentially extremely useful type of idiot, so of course they stick around. 

I think the cult, especially Charismatic Wisdom, is intentionally satirical, and tells you what Greg thinks of a lot of populist New Age ideas. 

Does anyone remember Trilobitology, Greg's (non-Glorantha/gaming connected) satirical religion? It's got more than a bit in common with Immanent Mastery, I think. 

  • Like 1
  • Thanks 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...