idea to boost crushing damage weapons

[Beoferret]

The following is inspired by the following thread and the resources folks pointed out in it. Thanks everyone.

 

Anyhow, I've read multiple comments, in reviews and on the forum, noting that crushing damage weapons have a relatively weak form of special damage (unless your character has a good damage bonus.) So the question becomes, how does one beef up crushing weapons without running too high of a risk of unbalancing them? I think I have an answer.

According to Rune Fixes 1 (https://www.chaosium.com/content/FreePDFs/RuneQuest/Rune Fixes/RQ - Rune Fixes.pdf), under "Subduing": "An adventurer may use a weapon to stun an opponent if the player states that the adventurer is using the flat of blade or the haft/hilt of the weapon to make an aimed blow to the head at the end of the melee round. Subtract the value of any protective armor (including magical protection) from the rolled damage and use a resistance roll to attack the number of hit points in the head with the remaining damage. If the resistance roll succeeds, the target is stunned and unconscious. During the Bookkeeping Phase of each subsequent melee round, that character’s player must make a successful CON×1 roll to recover consciousness." Why not provide the same effect to any blow to the head from a crushing weapon, whether aimed or not? For many strikes, e.g. from a great troll swinging a maul, this won't really come into play - the damage is already high enough to kill or incapacitate. But with this simple tweak, maces, clubs, etc wielded by regular humans suddenly gain a reasonable (and reasonably realistic) effect on top of the existing potential special damage that makes them more worth consideration without outclassing other types of weapons.

To go along with this I would add 1) using the resistance table even if damage doesn't get past armor (e.g. an attack causing 2 pts damage to a head protected by 7 pts armor, would still have a 25% of causing stun), and 2) a division between stunning and full on knocking someone out (perhaps a stunned adversary cannot attack, has half move, and defends at half their parry or dodge; with recovery - after a minimum one round of being stunned - being CONx3/CONx5 if no damage got through armor and CONx1 if damage did get through armor.)

Thoughts? 

 

[soltakss]

I use the same effect on other locations, of that is the intent. so, you can get winded from a blow to the abdomen or chest, can get a dead arm or dead leg from blows to those locations and stunned from such a blow to the head.

However, it needs to be a stated aim, I think. There is a difference in technique between trying to hurt someone and giving then a stunning/winding/deadening blow.

[Paid a bod yn dwp]

Crush damage is quite significant. There’s a little ambiguity over the critical result in the core rules, but it’s been clarified here as being:

Full Weapon damage + full damage bonus + full damage bonus, ignoring armour. 

That said it is very damage bonus dependant. 
 

With subdue and crush weapons, I might be inclined to just add +5% or plus 10% to the resistance roll to give a little bonus for subduing. That subduing roll could be applied to other body parts too for dead leg and winded effects. However the standard rules for damage to hit locations already includes incapacitation to hit locations so may be a bit of unnecessary cross over there. 

Edited July 24, 2020 by Paid a bod yn dwp

[Dissolv]

I need more time with the current boost to crushing weapons to add another.  My current campaign hasn't even had a fight against trolls yet, so I don't have a feel for +2d6 with the 2 handers just yet.  Great trolls are a thing, after all.

 

 

[g33k]

I think it's the intent of the rules that "Crushing" weapons are a bit ... underwhelming... 

Until/unless you get to very-high-DB foes, where they transition to rather scary, rather quickly.

 

I don't really need or want to alter that.  YGMV, of course, but I don't think making the weapons "more equal" is a good thing.  I find it takes away from the feel of the game.

However, I don't really see the approach above (borrowing from the Rune Fixes "subdual" rules) as making the Crushing weapons "more equal" -- they add a stun/knockout effect other weapons don't have, so it preserves the differentiation.  If anything, "knockout" makes them IMHO more "Darkness-y" weapons.

I still wouldn't want to increase effectiveness too much...  I dislike (for example) any effect if the armor has blocked all damage -- it was blocked.

 

[Beoferret]

4 hours ago, g33k said:

However, I don't really see the approach above (borrowing from the Rune Fixes "subdual" rules) as making the Crushing weapons "more equal" -- they add a stun/knockout effect other weapons don't have, so it preserves the differentiation.  If anything, "knockout" makes them IMHO more "Darkness-y" weapons.

I still wouldn't want to increase effectiveness too much...  I dislike (for example) any effect if the armor has blocked all damage -- it was blocked.

 

Decent point. I was simply thinking about how impact weapons, especially maces, could knock someone wearing a helmet for a loop with a head strike, even if the helmet maintained integrity, etc. Perhaps it'd be better to keep stunning or unconsciousness as effects coming from damage taken, even if it's just one point.

[MJ Sadique]

13 hours ago, g33k said:

I don't really need or want to alter that.  YGMV, of course, but I don't think making the weapons "more equal" is a good thing.  I find it takes away from the feel of the game.
...
I still wouldn't want to increase effectiveness too much...  I dislike (for example) any effect if the armor has blocked all damage -- it was blocked.

Crushing or not crushing, here is the question !
First I found RQG specials effects lacking a bit but the idea of Crushing raising Bonus Damage is good but I also found them "underwhelming". To fill the hole, I search and found some solutions, I will share you the different concepts :

RQG Crushing + RQIII Flexible armor rule
-RQIII original rules : Flexible Armor pts are halves against crushing (6PA mail count as 3PA only). Knockback on special effet was good but too much complex to be usable.
-RQG : On Special effect crushing is simple by adding the BD.max to the usual damage. (but no rule about flexible armor as far as I remember...)

Crushing variants
-First / Raising the bonus damage by one rank : -1D6 / 0 / 1D4 / 1D6 / 2D6 ... (most fair for low str)
-Second / Stun effect : Each Damage bypassing the armor stun the localisation for 3RA. Leg : you fall, arms : you drop your weapon, torso : out of breath, cannot attack, head : stun or KO
-Third / Double the STR when calculation the BD (you need an extra BD.bis (For x2+Siz) )

I prefer the third because its' simpler for player and I already had create a BD.bis on their sheets (For centaur first and found others use after that).

About Subduing,
In case of successfull-attack+failed-defense, I will just oppose Damage vs Armor pts + Localisation.HP ; It's Faster which live place for more fun (less calculations and the defender only give one global value for the roll).

About Crushing weapons generality (Maul, Hammer and Shield) : The true power of a crushing weapon is not well play in most RPG because first a maul/hammer are a lot cheaper than a sword, more sturdier and easier to repair. Second fact, They also don't rust nor loose their edge after a hard treatment : On a battle field a bronze sword loose their cutting power after a dozen hard hits, iron one are sturdier but a lot harder to repair. Third fact, the forgotten parameter are blood and grease : a sword lose almost all cutting power after 4-5 cuts on a human body (Japanese saber crashing test on living body attest it) but a crushing weapon covered in blood won't loose their impact.

As all these factor not taken in account, most crushing weapons always fell under rated and not as useful as they are in reality. Most house rules consist of making them with more AP or Damage but it's not the best way to equalize a system. House role or roleplay is up to you (enforce Sword Cleaning after 2-3 successfuls cuts)

[Ned]

A small alteration I'm considering is to make RQG's Knockback (which is useful, I find) only available to Crushing weapons (including shields, kicks, etc, of course). It seems thematic and is is a small nerf for Impaling/Slashing weapons, so a relative boon for Crushing.

[French Desperate WindChild]

The strength spell is very useful with crushing weapon, better than with other when the success is special or critical

 

for me if you are not strong don’t use a weapon made for strong people 😛 or accept to be weak

@MJ Sadique I agree with you irl but remember that bronze weaponry are made with gods bones. It may change the perspective of the lost of power 🙂 

i think that a simple house rule could be to say that with a mace, if you get a special you have 100% to knock the opponent without dammage. But yes some « special and critical output » decisions may add some interest to a fight resolution

 

 

[Yinkin]

To be honest I just use the same critical/special rules for all weapons. I find it not worth the bother. Impaling weapons just have the added effect of getting stuck because that adds an actual visual dramatic effect which makes for more interesting combats.

[Akhôrahil]

On 10/10/2023 at 9:04 AM, Yinkin said:

To be honest I just use the same critical/special rules for all weapons. I find it not worth the bother. Impaling weapons just have the added effect of getting stuck because that adds an actual visual dramatic effect which makes for more interesting combats.

I do much the same. I particularly like how impaling can render a shield useless.

Anyway, crushing weapons were typically used historically in two contexts - when it was the best you could get, and when you needed to bash through armour. For the first, it makes sense if it's just not as good as other weapons; for the second, some kind of armor-negating ability (perhaps on Specials) would work well.

Edited October 11, 2023 by Akhôrahil