Manirian Scratchpad III: The Dragonewts of Ryzel

[Nevermet]

Well, I feel stupid for missing that.  Thanks.

[Nevermet]

ok, so... What more can we say about Ryzel since this thread began?

• Ryzel at the Dawn probably (?) had no Dragonewts, though it's possible there was a nest / tribe there before the Dawn and it was destroyed by Chaos (or something else) during the Darkness
• The Newts came with Palangio to retake Ryzel and/or they were the result of a curse. 
  • Either way, it sounds like they would be completely fine with the outcome of Arkat pushing Palangio back while they get to retain control of Ryzel.
• Given their experiences with the Bright Empire, I can appreciate that they'd be much more blunt about their territoriality.
  • Dealing with the Godlearners for a few centuries likely didn't improve things.

 

Given all this, I'm imagining that from the end of the Gbaji Wars on, Ryzel was an extremely guarded, insular place. The cultures around it likely had less mythical resources for engaging the Newts means things likely didn't improve.  It likely had a seige mentality as it fought off Slontos, Lopers, Pralori, and Herolans.

 

They probably had a few decades of desperation, until they revived the Inhuman King of Ryzel, who had been in cursed slumber since before Time (or something).  After that, they had a bit more control of their boundaries, though the GLs likely were a constant threat.  I like the idea up thread of the GLs trying out anti-draconic magic against Ryzel before they used it on the EWF.  I also suspect that the Dragonewts of Ryzel had absolutely no interest in the human weirdness of EWF.  ...I can imagine a doomed group, fleeing the EWF as it fell, hoping to find refuge in Ryzel... only to find Dragonewts that were at least as hostile to humans living there.

 

Current Relations

Jubal.  I suspect there was no trading relationship with Jubal or the Manirian Tribes until Castelein.  I think, knowing that Esrolia would want unique trade goods, Castelein somehow managed to engage and negotiate a deal with the Newts in exchange for the exquisite red dye.  My guess is that the Manirians of the lower Tigronior would risk the ire of Dragonewts to acquire the dye for some significant ritual purpose.  Castelein saw the situation, and normalized trade relations with the Newts in exchange for the Manirians not moving into Ryzel (among other things).

 

Kaxtorplose.  The Kaxtori probably have a very tenuous peace with the Dragonewts, and likely live in no small amount of fear that the Newts are going to just come out of the hills and try to finish what the Iron Vrok started (yes, IMG, the Kaxtori remember the Gbaji Wars quite well despite it being a millennia ago).  The Newts, OTOH, don't really care about Kaxtorplose since it is outside of their territory.  So... an uncomfortable "good fences make good neighbours" attitude has likely GENERALLY reigned since the Sinking of Slontos.

 

Handra.  I find it interesting that after the Sinking,  the Dragonewts absorbed the ruins just to its south, such as Gualal and Hermat.  I think the simplest interpretation of this is that they were always geographically part of what the Newts considered Ryzel.  I like @kr0p0s's idea of Zistorite secrets / horrors lurking in Slontan ruins, or Godlearner secrets more generally, but I don't think it feels particularly in character for Newts to go hunting for Zistorite artifacts.  Nevertheless, GL ruins on dry land will be an irresistable draw for adventurers, and I suspect more than a few of tried to find something.... and then ran in a panic as Dragonewts and things under their control drove them from the ruins.

 

Aldryami.  ....I could be wrong, but I think the Elves will let the Newts have Ryzel, and they'd be happy with the rest of Maniria getting blanketed in forest.

 

 

Anything in all that sound especially good or bad?

Edited August 7, 2020 by Nevermet

[John Biles]

Dragonnewts would probably hunt for Zistorite artifacts to destroy them.

 

[jajagappa]

1 hour ago, Nevermet said:

but I don't think it feels particularly in character for Newts to go hunting for Zistorite artifacts

I don't either.  It's a human thing, and the Ryzel dragonewts are unlikely to be focused on something so mundane.

1 hour ago, Nevermet said:

What more can we say about Ryzel since this thread began?

GtG p.76: "Some theorize that there are secret dragonewt roads between it and the Dragon’s Eye."

This may or may not be true, but given the minds of the two Inhuman Kings may naturally reach to each other (since they are True Dragons), such "roads" may reflect this state.  Consider them "dream dragon" roads, that fade in and out of reality depending on whether either Inhuman King has a thought to reach the other for whatever draconic reason.

1 hour ago, Nevermet said:

Ryzel at the Dawn probably (?) had no Dragonewts, though it's possible there was a nest / tribe there before the Dawn and it was destroyed by Chaos (or something else) during the Darkness

That seems to likely be the case.

1 hour ago, Nevermet said:

The Newts came with Palangio to retake Ryzel and/or they were the result of a curse. 

Or,... as is said a True Dragon awoke and ate the curse, but hid that truth away from Gbaji.  The dragonewts were offered as servants/slaves/mercenaries to aid Palangio.  But there was a secret goal to refound Ryzel and restore the eggs there. 

1 hour ago, Nevermet said:

they would be completely fine with the outcome of Arkat pushing Palangio back while they get to retain control of Ryzel

Typical dragonewt "betrayal".  Their agenda is completely different.  They slaughter some part of Palangio's forces, allowing Arkat to enter or pass through Slontos.  And then they disappear and go about the work they intended.

1 hour ago, Nevermet said:

Castelein somehow managed to engage and negotiate a deal with the Newts in exchange for the exquisite red dye

Yes, as the Guide notes: "The city must annually pay an often extremely eccentric (or so the demands appear to humans) tribute" - a tribute which can be "humiliating".  I'm sure it differs every year.  One year it's the beards of the men of Jubal.  The next it is the left pinkie finger of every eldest child.  Or the sound of every citizen of Jubal howling for an entire Wildday night. Or ten thousand drops of dew collected only from blades of grass.

1 hour ago, Nevermet said:

The Kaxtori probably have a very tenuous peace with the Dragonewts, and likely live in no small amount of fear that the Newts are going to just come out of the hills and try to finish what the Iron Vrok started (yes, IMG, the Kaxtori remember the Gbaji Wars quite well despite it being a millennia ago).  The Newts, OTOH, don't really care about Kaxtorplose since it is outside of their territory. 

As the Guide notes: "Kaxtorplose was famous for its resistance to the Bright Empire during the Gbaji Wars, holding onto its independence until the arrival of Arkat."

I would guess that at some point Palangio would have set the dragonewts against Kaxtorplose.  And if the dragonewts betrayed Palangio, and opened the path for Arkat, it would have occurred here.  And there may well be secrets or records hidden there, or secret knowledge passed down from leader to leader about some ancient promise or curse made by the dragonewts.

1 hour ago, Nevermet said:

I find it interesting that after the Sinking,  the Dragonewts absorbed the ruins just to its south, such as Gualal and Hermat.  I think the simplest interpretation of this is that they were always geographically part of what the Newts considered Ryzel.

Quite possible.  Or, the GL there, as you mentioned, experimented with anti-draconic magic there, and the dragonewts helped destroy and seal off those places.

[Nevermet]

1 hour ago, jajagappa said:

I would guess that at some point Palangio would have set the dragonewts against Kaxtorplose.  And if the dragonewts betrayed Palangio, and opened the path for Arkat, it would have occurred here.  And there may well be secrets or records hidden there, or secret knowledge passed down from leader to leader about some ancient promise or curse made by the dragonewts.

 

Oh, I like this

[Sir_Godspeed]

1 hour ago, jajagappa said:

Quite possible.  Or, the GL there, as you mentioned, experimented with anti-draconic magic there, and the dragonewts helped destroy and seal off those places.

This is very interesting. 

1 hour ago, jajagappa said:

Quite possible.  Or, the GL there, as you mentioned, experimented with anti-draconic magic there, and the dragonewts helped destroy and seal off those places.

Combined explanations are always good!

[Nevermet]

1 hour ago, jajagappa said:

Yes, as the Guide notes: "The city must annually pay an often extremely eccentric (or so the demands appear to humans) tribute" - a tribute which can be "humiliating".  I'm sure it differs every year.  One year it's the beards of the men of Jubal.  The next it is the left pinkie finger of every eldest child.  Or the sound of every citizen of Jubal howling for an entire Wildday night. Or ten thousand drops of dew collected only from blades of grass.

 

Yeah.... I'll be honest: I don't know what to do with this.  Dragonewts seem like the least petty species, because they are the most alien, so I have trouble believing this is all a ritual to demonstrate dominance.

At the same time, draconic magic to my knowledge doesn't need sacrifices of these kinds.

 

So.... I dunno?

 

heh...maybe it's part of the bargain because the humans need to be aware of hierarchy and dominance.  Like, if they were just given a couple barrels of insects every year, they'd think they were in charge, so Castelein said something like, "Look, you need to also have weird, humiliating elements of the bargain every year, here are the parameters..."  I... dont know if I actually believe that, but its amusing.

[Nevermet]

1 hour ago, jajagappa said:

Quite possible.  Or, the GL there, as you mentioned, experimented with anti-draconic magic there, and the dragonewts helped destroy and seal off those places.

7 minutes ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

This is very interesting. 

 

Combined explanations are always good!

 

The GL conducted their anti-draconic magic from Hermat and Gualal precisely because they were on former (broken?  tainted?  repairable?) egg grounds, as that helped their wizardry and research. 

[John Biles]

10 minutes ago, Nevermet said:

heh...maybe it's part of the bargain because the humans need to be aware of hierarchy and dominance.  Like, if they were just given a couple barrels of insects every year, they'd think they were in charge, so Castelein said something like, "Look, you need to also have weird, humiliating elements of the bargain every year, here are the parameters..."  I... dont know if I actually believe that, but its amusing.

Dragonnewts who are trying to advance spiritually are trying to clear out their karma.  These requests may be related to that, and it's just that these things offend the cultures around them, rather than being *intended* to embarrass anyone.

This is the reason a Dragonnewt may suddenly break into your house and kill you; he is trying to release you to a better existence, the way you did in the first age when your earlier self stabbed him in the face.

 

[jajagappa]

10 minutes ago, Nevermet said:

At the same time, draconic magic to my knowledge doesn't need sacrifices of these kinds.

Nothing to do with draconic magic in my mind.  And not sacrifices to their way of thinking either.  Maybe they serve as unusual foodstuffs - things that make their scales color in particular ways (after all, why do humans want colors from insect parts?) or enhance their draconic dreams.  Maybe they think of them as "seeds" from which the left-handed path will grow.  Maybe they capture the sounds and songs and cries of humans in special "jars" so they can blend and mix them in the future to accompany strange dances with the spirits of particular passions.  

With dragonewts you have to think weird, bizarre, and totally "in" or "un" human. 

[Nevermet]

1 minute ago, John Biles said:

This is the reason a Dragonnewt may suddenly break into your house and kill you; he is trying to release you to a better existence, the way you did in the first age when your earlier self stabbed him in the face.

 

well, thats just neighbourly, isnt it? 

[jajagappa]

16 minutes ago, Nevermet said:

heh...maybe it's part of the bargain because the humans need to be aware of hierarchy and dominance.  Like, if they were just given a couple barrels of insects every year, they'd think they were in charge, so Castelein said something like, "Look, you need to also have weird, humiliating elements of the bargain every year, here are the parameters..."  I... dont know if I actually believe that, but its amusing.

seems too "human".  Of course, trade in general may be too "human" and creates entanglements for future dragonewts.  Far more likely from the dragonewt perspective it has to do with ritual, individual progression, and the like.  Castelain "just happened" to arrive at a point of a specific ritual when they were "casting out" the "blood" of the brood.  He thought they were arranging a trade.  He accepted the bargain without knowing what they wanted to aid their ritual.  But the ritual evolves and changes, based on the thoughts of the Inhuman King, so the strange requirements are always different (perhaps nearly impossible to get in some years, and then perhaps the dragonewts go on a ritual hunt).  No need for any of it to be logical, to have any humanly understood meaning, etc.

[Nevermet]

I'm not there yet, but I really need to revisit Castelein's personal works.

Based on what I know, he was most successful with the Aldryami, acceptably successful with the Dragonewts, and I'm guessing something went wrong with the Uz.  But hey, at least they didnt eat him.

[Sir_Godspeed]

22 minutes ago, John Biles said:

Dragonnewts who are trying to advance spiritually are trying to clear out their karma.  These requests may be related to that, and it's just that these things offend the cultures around them, rather than being *intended* to embarrass anyone.

This is the reason a Dragonnewt may suddenly break into your house and kill you; he is trying to release you to a better existence, the way you did in the first age when your earlier self stabbed him in the face.

 

Or because you are destined/likely to release them in the future.

[Nevermet]

Also, I just need to say this: They have no fear of death, and do random stuff because they know they'll just respawn.  This helps explain their seemingly irrational behaviour, in addition to their quest to spiritually evolve into dragons.

 

In short, Dragonewts appear utterly mad because they act as if they are protagonists in video games

[John Biles]

43 minutes ago, Nevermet said:

well, thats just neighbourly, isnt it? 

In a world of reincarnation, for a species that reincarnates, it *is* neighborly.

He believes he is helping you to progress to a higher state of being!

And he knows reincarnation is real.  If you want to grok Dragonnewts, I think it's essential to grasp that things people believe in the real world but can't prove are experienced by Dragonnewts.  They know reincarnation is real, they know that progressing to higher forms is real.  They've seen it, done it, experienced it.

 

[scott-martin]

38 minutes ago, Nevermet said:

Based on what I know, he was most successful with the Aldryami, acceptably successful with the Dragonewts

I like how at Nochet Knowledge Temple elf and dragonewt studies share a "department" in the form of the Green Sages. It would be wonderful if they look back to Castelain's work . . . or vice versa. Either way, their loyalties may well lie in the near west.

[Nevermet]

1 minute ago, scott-martin said:

I like how at Nochet Knowledge Temple elf and dragonewt studies share a "department" in the form of the Green Sages. It would be wonderful if they look back to Castelain's work . . . or vice versa. Either way, their loyalties may well lie in the near west.

I'm now imagining Elf Friends in Nochet secretly trying to promote the Reforestation...

[Sir_Godspeed]

9 hours ago, Nevermet said:

I'm now imagining Elf Friends in Nochet secretly trying to promote the Reforestation...

It would conveniently also possibly secure Esrolia's western flank against raiders.

[soltakss]

17 hours ago, Nevermet said:

Well, I feel stupid for missing that.  Thanks.

It is hidden away in several places, so don't feel bad.

I knew it from Cults of Terror anyway.

 

[Nevermet]

6 hours ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

It would conveniently also possibly secure Esrolia's western flank against raiders.

There will be a schism among the Elfriends over exactly how much of Esrolia should become forest, I imagine.

 

"Wait, I thought we agreed... all of it, right?"

[Nevermet]

...I feel like I should have more to say about the Ryzelnewts, but I don't.

 

The Newtlings of the New Fens, OTOH, I feel like I will have more to say, but not yet.  I need to get more of a handle on Handra and Caratan.

[Nevermet]

Oh!  Another thing:  When Did Ryzel Get its Inhuman King?

 

Here's my current answer:

When the Newts retook Ryzel, they actively began to burrow and dig and search.  They reclaimed many eggs, broken and viable, and began excavating out their ancient city.  Eventually, they found the remains of the Inhuman King, who was imprisoned / asleep / injured.  All Newt activity from that point forward was about reviving their King.  He finally awakened from the explosion of mythical energy released during the Sinking of Slontos and the Devastation of the Vent.  From that point forward, Ryzel was a true nest with Purpose, even if that purpose was different from Dragonpass or Kralorela.

 

Other possible answers:

• They always had the Inhuman King: As soon as they arrived in Maniria, they already had Him. 
  • Maybe he ascended as soon as the Newts ceased connection with Dragon Pass?
• He ascended as soon as they retook Ryzel.  This would fit with the historical line where the Newts betray Palangio, allowing Kaxtorplose to survive and Arkat to liberate it.
• He ascends when Palangio retreats, leaving Ryzel to the Newts.  New nest = new Inhuman King
• The Newts recover him in Ryzel, where he is imprisoner / sleeping / deeply injured from before Time.  He ascends / awakens some time in the Third Age, partly due to the agreement Castelein makes with the Newts.

[jajagappa]

22 minutes ago, Nevermet said:

Oh!  Another thing:  When Did Ryzel Get its Inhuman King?

Here's some thoughts that blend together a few ideas:

• to survive the Great Darkness, the Inhuman King (a True Dragon) went to sleep (or one could just surmise that it was bored, sleepy, or any of another draconic states).
• it was the True Dragon that awoke and ate the curse directed at the dragonewts
• recognizing the kindred draconic spirit, the Inhuman King of Dragon Pass "surrendered" to Gbaji and let Palangio take dragonewt mercenaries to the west
• the dragonewts betrayed Palangio and aided Arkat as part of the effort to "liberated" their Inhuman King - they succeeded (and being liberated opened the path for the next Inhuman King to emerge)
• the next Inhuman King awoke/hatched within the new, restored nest of Ryzel - it was the one present when the God Learners came
• when the God Learners "switched" the goddesses, it was the Inhuman King that freed her so that she could roll over (and conveniently drown all the lands up to Ryzel) - whether this Inhuman King passed on at that point, or did so during the later Dragonkill (joining the dragons that descended upon Dragon Pass), is immaterial
• the Inhuman King that joined the Dragonkill passed on to free itself from its worldly entanglements - a new Inhuman King awoke/hatched around that time and has been there since (perhaps) and was the one encountered by Castelain.