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Tell me about the Veldang and the quest for the Red Sword of Tolat


dumuzid

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Avalor left Teshnos in 950 ST as a well-established (greatest) king of God Learner Teshnos. Sigur became king in 980.

Assuming that Avalor was around 30 - 40 years old when he left Teshnos, he would have been 60 - 70 years old at the overthrow of the Adalla dynasty of Fronelan God Learners, with at least 20 years of presence in the land.

Avlor is called a foreigner. Now foreigners taking the crown of a Malkioni land have something of a tradition (like e.g. Gerlant).

Avalor had presumably recovered his (presumably exotic) wife when he settled the sword in Spada.

 

Would Sigur be Avalor? IMG probably not.

Telling how it is excessive verbis

 

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22 hours ago, Joerg said:

Avalor left Teshnos in 950 ST as a well-established (greatest) king of God Learner Teshnos. Sigur became king in 980.

Assuming that Avalor was around 30 - 40 years old when he left Teshnos, he would have been 60 - 70 years old at the overthrow of the Adalla dynasty of Fronelan God Learners, with at least 20 years of presence in the land.

This is true, Avalor would be a pretty senior man by the time the revolt in Fronela concludes if he lived a conventional lifespan, and we assume Avalor and Avlor are the same person.  I don't think that in itself is disqualifying, given the powers Avalor would've been exposed to and connected with as the greatest God Learner king of Teshnos.  I would not be surprised if some magical influence or another kept Avalor mentally and physically hale beyond the normal human span. 

There's also the chance that Avalor and Avlor are two different people.  There's thirty years between Avalor's abdication and Avlor's arrival in Fronela, time enough for Avalor to father and even raise a child, die, and that child to come of age and carry the sword to Fronela.  I would love further textual sources, because none of this cloud of ambiguity is helped by the simple fact that

22 hours ago, Joerg said:

Avalor had presumably recovered his (presumably exotic) wife when he settled the sword in Spada.

we don't actually know what became of Avalor's wife.  The guide says Avalor leaves Teshnos in 950, and no one from there ever learned what became of him.  Selenteen of Alampish went as far as the Zola Fel in search of him, but made no further progress; and by then the trail was over 200 years cold.  There's no evidence in the guide of what happened to the bearer of the Red Sword between Avalor's departure and Avlor's appearance in Fronela, no later than 980.

With the available evidence there's intriguing hints, and plenty enough for a GM to fabricate their own answer, but not enough for a fixed conclusion from the text alone.  Which is fine, there's enough threads here to spin the story out of in a few different directions.  I'm mostly just curious to see if any official writing has expanded this element of the late Second Age further.

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17 minutes ago, dumuzid said:

This is true, Avalor would be a pretty senior man by the time the revolt in Fronela concludes if he lived a conventional lifespan, and we assume Avalor and Avlor are the same person.  I don't think that in itself is disqualifying, given the powers Avalor would've been exposed to and connected with as the greatest God Learner king of Teshnos.  I would not be surprised if some magical influence or another kept Avalor mentally and physically hale beyond the normal human span. 

Yes, if you look at Aragorn, and the Fellowship of the Ring, then the youngest member would have been Boromir son of Denethor, Meriadoc Brandywine, or Peregrin Took, with Aragorn and Gimli somewhat tied for the third oldest after Gandalf and Legolas. (Makes me wonder why RPGs assume that you start playing at age 15 or so..)

Halwal, the Merlin/Gandalf figure in the liberation of Fronela and Ralios, gets his first mention as rival of Argalis in the commentaries on the reign of Triosos or Trosos, who reigned from 870 to 887. The author might refer to the current year of 908 for this rivalry, though.

Argalis disappeared during the reign of Hekaos, 946-958, after seventy years of service as High Sorcerer.

 

2 hours ago, dumuzid said:

There's also the chance that Avalor and Avlor are two different people.  There's thirty years between Avalor's abdication and Avlor's arrival in Fronela, time enough for Avalor to father and even raise a child, die, and that child to come of age and carry the sword to Fronela. 

There apparently is an Avalor's Saga in Greg's western cycle, but other than the title I haven't seen anything from it. If it is part of the foundations of Glorantha series that was sold in extremely limited numbers as fund raisers, Avalor would be found in the Book of Heroes in that 14 booklet series, I suppose.

I don't see Av(a)lor playing as decisive a role in the Fronelan rebellion as Halwal, Tyrensaval or Sigur.

 

2 hours ago, dumuzid said:

I would love further textual sources, because none of this cloud of ambiguity is helped by the simple fact that

On 7/28/2021 at 9:53 PM, Joerg said:

Avalor had presumably recovered his (presumably exotic) wife when he settled the sword in Spada.

we don't actually know what became of Avalor's wife.

Correct, we don't, but if she was a Melibite native priestess (dancer?), with ties to the Blue Moon, then an abduction to Croesium for interrogation or experimental worship would make sense.

 

17 minutes ago, dumuzid said:

The guide says Avalor leaves Teshnos in 950, and no one from there ever learned what became of him.  Selenteen of Alampish went as far as the Zola Fel in search of him, but made no further progress; and by then the trail was over 200 years cold.  There's no evidence in the guide of what happened to the bearer of the Red Sword between Avalor's departure and Avlor's appearance in Fronela, no later than 980.

The Red Sword in question is one of the better secondary incarnations of the Real Thing, but heroquesting may imbue another incarnation with sufficient identification to fulfill prophecies.

 

17 minutes ago, dumuzid said:

With the available evidence there's intriguing hints, and plenty enough for a GM to fabricate their own answer, but not enough for a fixed conclusion from the text alone.  Which is fine, there's enough threads here to spin the story out of in a few different directions.  I'm mostly just curious to see if any official writing has expanded this element of the late Second Age further.

King Sigur is mentioned for these events in Middle Sea Empire p.28.

 

There are some clues in Middle Sea Empire p.26. Already in 946 "bishops" of Loskalm curse Emperor Celakos, causing his death. (Or possibly his own "bishops".)

At least three years after the death of Celakos, after the disappearance of Argalis, Halwal is denied the post of High Sorcerer and departs from Seshnela.

Halwal and the Makanists are blamed for the disappearance of Argalis, who was a leading Malkioneranist. Yomili also was a representative of the Makanists. It isn't quite clear whether Yomili ascended to the post of High Sorcerer upon the disappearance of Argalis, or whether a Malkioneranist sorcerer was chosen over Halwal. Yomili may have had older, more Hrestolist leanings than Halwal, although Halwal's alliance with the Irensavalists and the Arkati point to a strong Hrestolist leaning on the part of Halwal, too, though perhaps less of the Seshnegi orthodoxy.

 

I wondered whether the cenobitic order of wizards transplanted by Jonat could have been the one advised by Halwal, but Middle Sea Empire speaks of a knightly order - in updated Western terminology that means men-of-all rather than zzaburi wizards.

 

According to Middle Sea Empire, the God Learner Collective was formed in 845, just 25 years before Argalis became High Sorcerer of the Middle Sea Empire. Both Halwal and Argalis may have witnessed the rise of the Malkioneranist movement early in their careers, Argalis from the inside, Halwal from the outside.

 

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Telling how it is excessive verbis

 

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45 minutes ago, Joerg said:

Yes, if you look at Aragorn, and the Fellowship of the Ring, then the youngest member would have been Boromir son of Denethor, Meriadoc Brandywine, or Peregrin Took, with Aragorn and Gimli somewhat tied for the third oldest after Gandalf and Legolas. 

Pippin is the youngest at 28, which makes him not yet a full adult (age for that is famously 33), maybe corresponding to 18-19 in human years. Gimli is significantly older than Aragorn.

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4 hours ago, Joerg said:

There apparently is an Avalor's Saga in Greg's western cycle, but other than the title I haven't seen anything from it. If it is part of the foundations of Glorantha series that was sold in extremely limited numbers as fund raisers, Avalor would be found in the Book of Heroes in that 14 booklet series, I suppose.

Well there we go, that would be the decisive evidence.

I don't suppose anyone on this board has access to Avalor's Saga and would be willing to disclose any further details of the story?  This 'Foundations of Glorantha' series doesn't sound like something I'm likely to get my eyes on anytime soon.

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