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Jeff's FB notes on Kallyr


jajagappa

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  • 3 years later...
On 2/5/2021 at 12:53 AM, Eff said:

astral Orlanth- Orlanth has a shape in the Sky, of course, the Broken Planet, but at points during the God Time he seems to have been the overall sovereign entity of the Sky as a whole- against Tyram the Sky Tyrant, even Dayzatar can do nothing but withdraw from the world, but Orlanth is able to reassert the proper shape of the Sky with his thunderbolts. And of course, if we accept that the Little/Cold Suns are a single deity, Orlanth also establishes dominion over Antirius by defeating Yelmalio/bring Elmal in from the dark, which would seem to make him the celestial emperor in one very important respect. Now, almost all of this is not elaborated in the standard sources, so we can assume that it's hidden knowledge in contemporary Glorantha, and that someone wanting to play around with the boundaries between Sky and Air would need to do some digging to discover this.

 

 

Some good old Orlanthi propaganda there.
Looks like Orlanth didn't do a good job and may not have done the job at all.

'Tyram, knocked from the sky and now plucking among the ruins of Agant Faraltilion'
From the well

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6 hours ago, Orlanthatemyhamster said:

As opposed to Argarth or Harrek?

No one but the Wolf Pirates liked Harrek.  But also Harrek *killed other people, not got his own men killed*.

As for Argath, all our knowledge of him comes from pro-Argath propaganda.

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On 2/4/2021 at 3:17 PM, Eff said:

... or by dismembering himself in the way the dragons do ...

This is an interesting notion; do you have explicit canon you can quote, here?  I don't recall such, but ... my old lore, from before the dawn of time, is weak.

I'm struck in particular by the idea of "dismemberment" which is also core to Shamanic ascent to power ...
 

Edited by g33k

C'es ne pas un .sig

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7 hours ago, Orlanthatemyhamster said:

Some good old Orlanthi propaganda there.
Looks like Orlanth didn't do a good job and may not have done the job at all.

'Tyram, knocked from the sky and now plucking among the ruins of Agant Faraltilion'
From the well

Well, you see, some unidentified people just have an apparent obsession with treating Chaos monsters as eternal, undefeated, and constantly threatening. It's more than enough to make you think that not just Orlanth, but the whole shebang might be a bunch of hooey. 

 "And I am pretty tired of all this fuss about rfevealign that many worshippers of a minor goddess might be lesbians." -Greg Stafford, April 11, 2007

"I just read an article in The Economist by a guy who was riding around with the Sartar rebels, I mean Taliban," -Greg Stafford, January 7th, 2010

Eight Arms and the Mask

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17 hours ago, John Biles said:

No one but the Wolf Pirates liked Harrek.  But also Harrek *killed other people, not got his own men killed*.

As for Argath, all our knowledge of him comes from pro-Argath propaganda.

I'm sure he sacrificed loads of his own men to get what he wanted, which is revenge, not the greater good.

This difference is, she failed, he didn't. Not the number of people lost.

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2 hours ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

Kallyr died heroically at the Battle of Queens, leaving behind a free Sartar.  As I posted on this thread 3 years ago, that doesn't feel like failure.  Or you have impossibly high standards.

With Kallyr gone, Sartarite unity fell apart, and there was no successor in sight. (Talking about Argrath in Pavis here not being ready to show up, whether for reasons as in Nick's Black Spear or simply because his previous attempt ended in a sound military defeat that did not build up trust into his leadership abilities. A bit like Jon Snow, really.)

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Telling how it is excessive verbis

 

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3 minutes ago, Joerg said:

With Kallyr gone, Sartarite unity fell apart, and there was no successor in sight.

And that was her failure?

The idiot Sartarites didn't unify behind the highly capable Leika, whose fine leadership qualities were revealed at the Battle of Queens.  That's not Kallyr's fault.

No successor because Leika is not the bloodline of Sartar?  That's Greg's fault.  No hero can defeat Greg.  🙂

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4 minutes ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

No successor because Leika is not the bloodline of Sartar?  That's Greg's fault.  No hero can defeat Greg.  🙂

Err, just have Kallyr have a child with Broyan around 1618ish, they will come of age around 1643. They can then take over from Argrath in your own adventures. Where are they now? I'd have them being raised by Leika with her children. Why? Cool story hook. Why does no one know? They do but no one is talking (at the moment). Why? Because that how to run fun adventures in 1643 - I'd also have them marry one of Leika's children... so by 1675 Leika's line is top dog in Sartar.

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18 minutes ago, David Scott said:

Err, just have Kallyr have a child with Broyan around 1618ish, they will come of age around 1643. They can then take over from Argrath in your own adventures. Where are they now? I'd have them being raised by Leika with her children. Why? Cool story hook. Why does no one know? They do but no one is talking (at the moment). Why? Because that how to run fun adventures in 1643 - I'd also have them marry one of Leika's children... so by 1675 Leika's line is top dog in Sartar.

You can also have some kid/kids of Temertain  and Estal Donge. Or maybe an offspring of Temertain or of Goran White-Fang with somebody. They could also claim the throne. (Gorams offspring would probably need a non-Telmori mother to be accepted by the Jonstown tribes).

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17 minutes ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

I think that most campaigns play that there are heirs hiding among the Telmori.  Which cynical Gloranthaphiles believe is why Argrath wipes them out.

That is actually a very interesting if your PCs have friends among the Telmori and starts to wonder if Argrath really is a good king…

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19 hours ago, Joerg said:

With Kallyr gone, Sartarite unity fell apart, and there was no successor in sight. 

You have Leika, and that's about it. Three tribal leaders are dead, one tribe is likely STILL trying to elect a new king even a year after the Dragonrise, and you've got a whole bunch of other issues cropping up. Argrath's defeat in early 1625 does lead to him going all in on his Sartarite Magical Union idea, which is in the end a winner. 

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18 hours ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

I think that most campaigns play that there are heirs hiding among the Telmori.  Which cynical Gloranthaphiles believe is why Argrath wipes them out.

I've played with there being several different sources (or potential sources) of heirs among the Telmori, even. 

19 hours ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

And that was her failure?

The idiot Sartarites didn't unify behind the highly capable Leika, whose fine leadership qualities were revealed at the Battle of Queens.  That's not Kallyr's fault.

No successor because Leika is not the bloodline of Sartar?  That's Greg's fault.  No hero can defeat Greg.  🙂

And if the only thing which can convince the Sartarites to continue to affiliate with each other is the presence of a special magical bloodline to provide nepotistic blessings from Prince Sartar... well, maybe they could use a new divine patron. Or another one alongside particularist ol' Sartar. 

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 "And I am pretty tired of all this fuss about rfevealign that many worshippers of a minor goddess might be lesbians." -Greg Stafford, April 11, 2007

"I just read an article in The Economist by a guy who was riding around with the Sartar rebels, I mean Taliban," -Greg Stafford, January 7th, 2010

Eight Arms and the Mask

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27 minutes ago, Eff said:

And if the only thing which can convince the Sartarites to continue to affiliate with each other is the presence of a special magical bloodline to provide nepotistic blessings from Prince Sartar... well, maybe they could use a new divine patron. Or another one alongside particularist ol' Sartar. 

Look, Sartar made a lot of deals in order to show Dragon Pass that it could be more. Extending those oaths to cover the rule of his descendants was tricky enough, but now you want the stones and the trees, the serpents and the winds to listen to Ballista and affirm that those promises still hold? Hubris, Effy. Hubris.

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1 hour ago, Tatterdemalion Fox said:

Sartar made a lot of deals in order to show Dragon Pass that it could be more. Extending those oaths to cover the rule of his descendants was tricky enough, but now you want the stones and the trees, the serpents and the winds to listen to Ballista and affirm that those promises still hold? Hubris, Effy. Hubris.

The Colymars are a challenge, too. Unlike the other tribes who agreed to join city confederations, the Colymar refused Sartar. And the Colymar are the largest tribe who might well want to rule over all Sartar. Kind of like asking people in the US to accept that (the governors of) California or Texas should be given rule over the whole country. It won't happen because there's too many counter opinions to accept Leika and the Colymar getting rule over Sartar.

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The Colymar Tribe are also assholes. Not as bad as the Malani Tribe, obviously, but surely it must count against them. (Why, yes, I am from the Lismelder Tribe: why do you ask?)

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3 hours ago, Eff said:

And if the only thing which can convince the Sartarites to continue to affiliate with each other is the presence of a special magical bloodline to provide nepotistic blessings from Prince Sartar... well, maybe they could use a new divine patron. Or another one alongside particularist ol' Sartar. 

There is one known lineage of the Founder that is going strong in Dragon Pass - the descendants of the Feathered Horse Queens 1 and 2 (Yoristina, the firstborn child of Sartar). But would the Quivini accept the FHQ as their ruling lineage? There might be interesting options for YGWVvery much.

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Telling how it is excessive verbis

 

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4 hours ago, Eff said:

maybe they could use a new divine patron. Or another one alongside particularist ol' Sartar. 

This is a truly wonderful idea.  It's a blueprint for a possible "out" for some groups from the Argrath Railroad Grand Campaign.  Some groups are happy with the Argrath theme, some, not so much.  "Supreme executive power derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical aquatic  lighting a Flame ceremony."

Our current campaign features high powered PCs, and a distracted, relatively incompetent Argrath.  Not all his fault, powerful enemies abound.   I could see it moving this way should it continue. 

We have found our high powered characters very challenging to play, too much powerful or OP rune magic, so we will probably start a new campaign with more beginning characters.  Or else send the current group to Dorastor...

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On 10/19/2024 at 5:16 PM, Orlanthatemyhamster said:

 

This might help shed light on the subject.

May be a doodle of text

That's not true, alot of people confuse assertiveness with aggressiveness.  One is being firm and resolute while respectful, while the other is comes across as demeaning.  I've seen assertive women and aggressive men.  The problem is too many women confused assertiveness with aggressiveness and that made them look like jerks.  But luckily in my field I see more strong assertive women coming up, and the more aggressive women becoming rarer as that behavior is better policed by their peers.

 

 

Any who, Kallyr is less popular becasue as others pointed out, she at the end of the day is marred by failure, in her original rebellion, and her failure to properly unify the tribes of Sartar, her failed Light Bringers Quest, and falling at the Battle of Queens.  She also took power from Pole Star, a Sky God, and as an Orlanthi that's kind of suspect.  At least Argrath kept it in the family of Storm with the Stormbulls.

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