Rodney Dangerduck Posted October 22 Share Posted October 22 59 minutes ago, Videopete said: At least Argrath kept it in the family of Storm with the Stormbulls. Argrath is pretty flagrantly abusing That Weird Illumination Stuff (TWIS™) to combine mixed magics and gain power. That seems far worse to me, but opinions can differ. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joerg Posted October 22 Share Posted October 22 1 hour ago, Rodney Dangerduck said: Argrath is pretty flagrantly abusing That Weird Illumination Stuff (TWIS™) to combine mixed magics and gain power. That seems far worse to me, but opinions can differ. The Orlanthi have a proud history of trying weird new stuff and then react violently to those new ideas. Argrath does both of these things. Quote Telling how it is excessive verbis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rodney Dangerduck Posted October 22 Share Posted October 22 8 minutes ago, Joerg said: The Orlanthi have a proud history of trying weird new stuff and then react violently to those new ideas. Argrath does both of these things. I'd qualify that as "Orlanthi leaders ... trying weird new stuff". Such as Harmast, Sartar, Argrath. I still think that Argrath's weird is weirder than Kallyr's pretty standard stuff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Biles Posted October 23 Share Posted October 23 7 hours ago, Rodney Dangerduck said: Argrath is pretty flagrantly abusing That Weird Illumination Stuff (TWIS™) to combine mixed magics and gain power. That seems far worse to me, but opinions can differ. Argath does shamanism, dragon stuff, mysticism; he does not keep it in the family either. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eff Posted October 23 Share Posted October 23 14 hours ago, Rodney Dangerduck said: Argrath is pretty flagrantly abusing That Weird Illumination Stuff (TWIS™) to combine mixed magics and gain power. That seems far worse to me, but opinions can differ. It remains an astonishing thing to me that Kallyr has been revised to being "bad at being an Orlanthi" because of worshiping Pole Star and Argrath is explicitly defined as an Orlanthi par excellence now. Even on a purely "internal logic" level, there's the whole notion of the Star Captains descending from the skies to aid people in need and founding societies as a consequence. With this revision, where are those people? You could assume this was a common distinguishing factor among Orlanthi, and that some degree of worship towards these ancestral stars would be part of their society, because that would be a natural place given the context, but I guess they're all... in Teshnos? In Pent? Maybe the answer is that the urbanized Pelorian society is actually visibly nearly identical to the Orlanthi ones and so the Star Captain story makes sense there? But put that aside, because that can always be revised, Kallyr being traditional and Argrath being innovative has become, not a reversal, but Kallyr being "not really an Orlanthi" (indeed, with the repeated assertion that the Lunars are basically Yelmic, you could say that Kallyr has become spiritually a Lunar in this mode) and Argrath being traditional. The fantasy moves to being a "conflict" wherein Sartarite society purifies itself of the inferior dross like Kallyr without anyone having to do anything and Argrath steps in naturally as the true and correct leader. Setting aside the implications of that conflict and that shift, where is there anything to play out from that conflict? Even if players are true-blue Orlanthi and back Prince-Daddy Argrath to the hilt, their foes would metaphysically seem to destroy themselves without doing anything. What are they supposed to do besides witness pre-written cutscenes? 6 Quote "And I am pretty tired of all this fuss about rfevealign that many worshippers of a minor goddess might be lesbians." -Greg Stafford, April 11, 2007 "I just read an article in The Economist by a guy who was riding around with the Sartar rebels, I mean Taliban," -Greg Stafford, January 7th, 2010 Eight Arms and the Mask Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Techpriest Posted October 23 Share Posted October 23 3 hours ago, Eff said: It remains an astonishing thing to me that Kallyr has been revised to being "bad at being an Orlanthi" because of worshiping Pole Star and Argrath is explicitly defined as an Orlanthi par excellence now. Even on a purely "internal logic" level, there's the whole notion of the Star Captains descending from the skies to aid people in need and founding societies as a consequence. With this revision, where are those people? You could assume this was a common distinguishing factor among Orlanthi, and that some degree of worship towards these ancestral stars would be part of their society, because that would be a natural place given the context, but I guess they're all... in Teshnos? In Pent? Maybe the answer is that the urbanized Pelorian society is actually visibly nearly identical to the Orlanthi ones and so the Star Captain story makes sense there? But put that aside, because that can always be revised, Kallyr being traditional and Argrath being innovative has become, not a reversal, but Kallyr being "not really an Orlanthi" (indeed, with the repeated assertion that the Lunars are basically Yelmic, you could say that Kallyr has become spiritually a Lunar in this mode) and Argrath being traditional. The fantasy moves to being a "conflict" wherein Sartarite society purifies itself of the inferior dross like Kallyr without anyone having to do anything and Argrath steps in naturally as the true and correct leader. Setting aside the implications of that conflict and that shift, where is there anything to play out from that conflict? Even if players are true-blue Orlanthi and back Prince-Daddy Argrath to the hilt, their foes would metaphysically seem to destroy themselves without doing anything. What are they supposed to do besides witness pre-written cutscenes? Kallyr wasn't bad at being Orlanthi, she was bad at being an Orlanthi prince compared to Argrath. Kallyr led a failed rebellion, went into exile, fell in with another Orlanthi king, and didn't relight the flame of Sartar. That's a failure of leadership. Starbrow was a great hero, sure, but not really able to adapt enough to the situation or rule as a Prince. Maybe she would have gotten better in time, but then she failed her short Lightbringers quest and died. A what if. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eff Posted October 23 Share Posted October 23 36 minutes ago, Techpriest said: Kallyr wasn't bad at being Orlanthi, she was bad at being an Orlanthi prince compared to Argrath. Kallyr led a failed rebellion, went into exile, fell in with another Orlanthi king, and didn't relight the flame of Sartar. That's a failure of leadership. Starbrow was a great hero, sure, but not really able to adapt enough to the situation or rule as a Prince. Maybe she would have gotten better in time, but then she failed her short Lightbringers quest and died. A what if. I'm talking about the specific statements about her Celestial Lore skill being higher than her Orlanth cult lore skill, or her Worship Orlanth skill, possibly both. The specific detail doesn't matter much there. Because there are a number of different ways to make Kallyr a failure. You could give her low INT and DEX and say she's a clumsy idiot and when Minaryth Purple died she was too stupid to rule. You could say that she was under a curse. You could say that she was too hidebound to move with the times. You could say that she was too bound up in recriminations for Starbrow's Rebellion to rule effectively. But the specific choice matters, and the means of her downfall matter too, in thinking about how to use this material in play. Even if Kallyr was terrible at being an Orlanthi and spiritually a no-good Yelmic/solar tyrant, if she was killed by Argrath, that would provide something for play- Orlanthi must remain on guard for starry-eyed dictators, and must oppose them and overthrow them if they take hold. Or if she was destroyed by her reach exceeding her grasp magically, that would provide something for play- there is a very real danger of self-destruction from trying to assert your will too one-sidedly. (And both of those examples are taken from existing mythological and historical background events in Glorantha and modified). But if her downfall comes not because of anyone's definite actions in response to hers but because of, seemingly, fate... what is there to play in that? Why are we rolling dice in that case? 2 Quote "And I am pretty tired of all this fuss about rfevealign that many worshippers of a minor goddess might be lesbians." -Greg Stafford, April 11, 2007 "I just read an article in The Economist by a guy who was riding around with the Sartar rebels, I mean Taliban," -Greg Stafford, January 7th, 2010 Eight Arms and the Mask Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joerg Posted October 23 Share Posted October 23 The notion that Orlanthi have little to do with the sky is a little baffling, a bit like saying that modern Britain has nothing to do with the Anglo-Saxons. Quite a few Orlanthi trace their descent from Star Captains, companions of Orlanth who aided him in his conquest of the skies and in his (successful) defence of the skies against Chaos (unlike on the Surface World where his successes fighting Chaos are rather the exception than the norm). Kallyr being steeped in Celestial Lore may have come from a fangirl attraction to the Pole Star. Kallyr was rather instrumental in the Boat Planet event, maybe not to the same extent as Dormal but certainly with an impact. That familiarity with the celestial realm also helped her recognizing the chance that the Lunar dedication ritual for the new temple offered. The Dara Happans blindly assumed that the Orlanthi (and their allies, e.g. among the Grazers) had no idea about celestial motion or its magics as Star Lore was their Plentonius-given Dara Happan birthright. Kallyr had any number of companions and advisors steeped in Orlanth cult lore and worship. She was an above average heroquester, although mainly in the celestial realms or as follower of Broyan. But she had not faced Lunar heroquesting opposition yet (beyond the temple dedication dance, which she had delegated to Minaryth and some player character agents). 1 Quote Telling how it is excessive verbis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Posted October 23 Share Posted October 23 9 hours ago, Techpriest said: Kallyr wasn't bad at being Orlanthi, she was bad at being an Orlanthi prince compared to Argrath. Kallyr led a failed rebellion, went into exile, fell in with another Orlanthi king, and didn't relight the flame of Sartar. That's a failure of leadership. Starbrow was a great hero, sure, but not really able to adapt enough to the situation or rule as a Prince. Maybe she would have gotten better in time, but then she failed her short Lightbringers quest and died. A what if. That's pretty much spot on. One also might say that she also was not aligned as well to the archetype that Orlanth represents in the Lightbringers' Quest as Argrath would be 20 years later. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darius West Posted October 24 Share Posted October 24 On 7/9/2021 at 8:23 AM, metcalph said: People hate Kallyr for the same reason people hate Field Marshal Haig - they both got a lot of people killed. Actually I think the reason people dislike Kallyr is for a different reason entirely. She failed the Hero Quest that would legitimate her position as an Orlanth substitute, and lost a lot of her magic into the bargain. This was akin to losing the favor of the gods. I don't think people hated her, I think she just failed, and is seen as a tragic figure, and all the people who committed to her cause are a bit tragic too as a result. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malin Posted October 24 Share Posted October 24 (edited) As someone who unabashedly loves and is fascinated with both Kallyr and Argrath and what they represent, I think an argument can be made that Kallyr was the last true Orlanthi Prince of Sartar. She was deeply grounded in the local culture, had a traditional mindset, and was beset by as many enemies as Orlanth was back in myths and legends. She spent most of her life fighting the Lunars, upholding Orlanth's position in the middle air against the invader, and standing against the Emperor to be, whether that was the Red Emperor or a shade of Yelm. To do that she spent decades fighting a rebellion and was deeply enmeshed in tribal politics, made allies of strange beings (her personal Star Captain, tell me that isn't an Orlanth thing), fought in the face of overwhelming odds, and performed impressive feats of daring. While she was one of the ones responsible (one can argue how much she knew about the details of this plan or whether Orlaronth hijacked her efforts) for the dragon rise, she immediately stepped back once the consequences became clear. Dragons should be killed or respected, everyone in Dragon Pass knows what will happen otherwise. Argrath on the other hand spent most of his formative years among the nomads on the plains of Prax, made his reputation from unrelated hero quests like the White Bison, helping giants and so on. He had deep shaman connections (if he wasn't a shaman himself), his best friends and companions were following unsavory gods like Eurmal and Waha, Wolf Pirates, and the like. He had few Orlanthi friends or allies before becoming Prince, and one could argue that he became Prince precisely because he was an ignorant and neutral party that the great clans of Sartar thought that they could manipulate and use for their side. Even his heritage is suspect, from which tribe does he come anyway? The story seems to change depending on the telling. And that is even before we talk about his draconic connections and possible illumination... And yet we can turn both these arguments on their head. Word them slightly differently, and Kallyr is the conservative who sticks to the path of tradition. Too mired in tribal politics to ever be able to extract herself, just by virtue of spending decades fighting a civil war. She had as strong enemies as she had allies, and too many rivals who had fought and bled just as hard as she had. She stood for the past, her temper and haughtiness an example of what many outside the Orlanthi sphere saw as being troublesome with them. She was a great and passionate rebel leader, a guiding star. But being a great rebel leader doesn't necessarily translate into a great unifier, not when you have decades of conflict and bad blood clinging to you like a shadow. Like it or not, she represented the old ways. Sartar the Kingdom. Orlanthi traditionalism. Argrath on the other hand was the new. The Orlanth who went into the pit of strange beings and made new friends with them. The Orlanth who had nothing to do with Sartar apart from a drop of blood, but who was ready to seize any opportunity if it could get him to where he wanted to be (and where that is, depends on the teller). The Orlanth who didn't play by the rules, who stole what tools he wanted from his enemies (lightning, sandals of darkness, the mist scarf) and made it his own. The Orlanth who didn't care about the rules, because nobody can make you do anything. And so he made a new way. Like it or not, he represents the new. Something bigger than Sartar. Bigger than Dragon Pass. Some might even say bigger than Orlanth. Change comes for us all in the end. And yet, they were both charismatic and powerful people, who did the best they could with what they had at hand. Who embodied the best parts of Orlanth, as well as the worst. Who is the hero or the villain depends on the teller, and what they choose to see in them. --- This is a fascinating topic, I might be running one campaign (currently in sacred time 1617) dealing with the rise of Argrath, and another campaign (currently in earth season 1625) dealing with the rise of Kallyr. I kinda love them both. Edited October 24 by Malin 7 1 3 Quote ☀️Sun County Apologist☀️ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joerg Posted October 24 Share Posted October 24 2 hours ago, Malin said: Argrath on the other hand spent most of his formative years among the nomads on the plains of Prax, made his reputation from unrelated hero quests like the White Bison, helping giants and so on. He had deep shaman connections (if he wasn't a shaman himself), his best friends and companions were following unsavory gods like Eurmal and Waha, Wolf Pirates, and the like. He had few Orlanthi friends or allies before becoming Prince, and one could argue that he became Prince precisely because he was an ignorant and neutral party that the great clans of Sartar thought that they could manipulate and use for their side. Even his heritage is suspect, from which tribe does he come anyway? The story seems to change depending on the telling. And that is even before we talk about his draconic connections and possible illumination.. Out in Pavis under Lunar occupation, Garrath Sharpsword held Orlanth worship rites for the Sartarite exile community out there in Prax. The Sword Brothers, one of the three elite cavalry units in the Sartar Free Army, consist of Orlanth and Humakt initiates both from Pavis County and the some of the animal nomads. Tribal membership of a Sartarite royal is normally not an issue, the House of Sartar was an entity of its own, outside of tribal politics - even when they had spouses from controversial tribes like the Telmori. (It is unknown whether Salinarg's wife was another descendant of Ostling Four Wolves, the (presumed Sairdite dog worshipper) companion of Sartar presented as replacement "king" of the Telmori in the Founding of Jonstown events, or whether she even was another descendant of Onelisin through Kostajor.) Argrath's move from Pavis to Sartar may have washed back quite a few exiles from Sartar, returning to a multitude of tribes and clans able to boast about their experiences with the newly revealed royal. Quite a few will have been married by Sharpsword or had their children initiated under his spiritual leadership. For all the weird mystical stuff Dragontooth has done, there are plenty traditional feats performed by Sharpsword that tickle the Orlanthi yearning for Orlanthi leadership. 1 1 Quote Telling how it is excessive verbis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
radmonger Posted October 24 Share Posted October 24 In-world, Kallyr failed because she didn't have the kind of personally-loyal army that Argrath did. This required her to take desperate and heroic measures just to try to get through a year as Prince. There was no time to step back and think 'what will the Lunars do when they hear I am trying this?'. Alterantively, from a Doylist perspective, Kallyr failed because she is not a counter in White Bear and Red Moon. And it is hard to see how she would not be, if she was stile alive and active during the period copvered by that game. 1 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joerg Posted October 24 Share Posted October 24 Kallyr lost practically all of her southern alliances when Broyan perished in that Kitori ambush. Quite a few of the units in both the Free Army and the Magical Union are based on former allies of Kallyr in the Rebellion (at least according to the "Sartar RIsing" campaign for HW/HQ1). The Eaglebrowns for instance are what became of Dernu and Gernu's band of rebels. 41 minutes ago, radmonger said: Alterantively, from a Doylist perspective, Kallyr failed because she is not a counter in White Bear and Red Moon. And it is hard to see how she would not be, if she was stile alive and active during the period copvered by that game. When I discussed using Kallyr or Fazzur in the game in the 90ies, there was some sort of agreement that their pieces would be a bit like a Praxian Khan, (1)!-1-_6_, giving up to three units stacked with them their leadership bonus. 1 Quote Telling how it is excessive verbis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
radmonger Posted October 24 Share Posted October 24 7 hours ago, Joerg said: Quite a few of the units in both the Free Army and the Magical Union are based on former allies of Kallyr in the Rebellion (at least according to the "Sartar RIsing" campaign for HW/HQ1). Yeah, to clarify, she did have plenty of peopel who would fight Lunars under her banner. What she lacked, and Argrath had, was people who could credibly threaten to fight Sartarites that way. For example, Argrath didn't find it necessary to undertake some difficult and dangerous quest to reconcile with the Telmori tribe. He just had them all killed... 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malin Posted October 24 Share Posted October 24 (edited) 8 hours ago, Joerg said: Out in Pavis under Lunar occupation, Garrath Sharpsword held Orlanth worship rites for the Sartarite exile community out there in Prax. The Sword Brothers, one of the three elite cavalry units in the Sartar Free Army, consist of Orlanth and Humakt initiates both from Pavis County and the some of the animal nomads. Yep, I might have exaggerated the differences between Kallyr and Argrath for effect in the post above, to make a point that it depends on your point of view how either party is seen. Also, on a different note, I wonder how different worshippers of Orlanth see each other depending on the culture? Sure there's a significant minority of Orlanth worshippers among the bison riders, but how would heartland Sartarites see them? They follow the same god, but also differently. They would lack any Sartar or Heortling traditions. I wonder how different they would seem to each other. Rune point replenishing works, sure, but what about all the other cultural things? Edited October 24 by Malin 1 Quote ☀️Sun County Apologist☀️ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rodney Dangerduck Posted October 24 Share Posted October 24 (edited) 51 minutes ago, radmonger said: Yeah, to clarify, she did have plenty of peopel who would fight Lunars under her banner. What she lacked, and Argrath had, was people who could credibly threaten to fight Sartarites that way. Good point His key allies are Harrek the Berserk, Elusu the Murderess, and Sheng (who needs no nickname, he was very aptly described by somebody else here as Genghis Khan without the good points). Argrath, for better or worse, will do absolutely anything to defeat the Lunars. Kallyr has Honor and scruples. Edited October 24 by Rodney Dangerduck 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eff Posted October 25 Share Posted October 25 17 hours ago, Rodney Dangerduck said: Good point His key allies are Harrek the Berserk, Elusu the Murderess, and Sheng (who needs no nickname, he was very aptly described by somebody else here as Genghis Khan without the good points). Argrath, for better or worse, will do absolutely anything to defeat the Lunars. Kallyr has Honor and scruples. Hell, he has Jaldon, who has every reason to detest Sartarites. You could imagine that without Argrath, Sartar might negotiate a modus vivendi with the Lunars rather than dedicating itself to endless war. 1 Quote "And I am pretty tired of all this fuss about rfevealign that many worshippers of a minor goddess might be lesbians." -Greg Stafford, April 11, 2007 "I just read an article in The Economist by a guy who was riding around with the Sartar rebels, I mean Taliban," -Greg Stafford, January 7th, 2010 Eight Arms and the Mask Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tatterdemalion Fox Posted October 25 Share Posted October 25 (edited) 1 hour ago, Eff said: Hell, he has Jaldon, who has every reason to detest Sartarites. You could imagine that without Argrath, Sartar might negotiate a modus vivendi with the Lunars rather than dedicating itself to endless war. Why should Argrath get to stomp around like Gonn Orta while the rest of us try not to get smooshed under his big feet? What's so great about Argrath, hmm? Leika is just as cute as Argrath. Okay? Leika is just as smart as Argrath. People totally like Leika as much as they like Argrath, and when did it become okay for one person to be the boss of everybody, huh, because that's not what Sartar is about, we should totally just stab Argrath! -anonymous, overheard near the Black Spear Manor. Edited October 25 by Tatterdemalion Fox 1 1 Quote YGWV The Mianmo Archives Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Posted October 25 Share Posted October 25 On 10/23/2024 at 5:21 PM, Jeff said: That's pretty much spot on. One also might say that she also was not aligned as well to the archetype that Orlanth represents in the Lightbringers' Quest as Argrath would be 20 years later. In the end, Kallyr succeeded in seeing a Free Sartar after more than a decade of struggle and exile. She failed in her attempt to perform the Lightbringers' Quest, and was killed two seasons later in a battle that was very nearly lost but won after she died due to the efforts of the Colymar Tribe. Big picture is that Kallyr always lacked the military resources - particularly cavalry - which Argrath was later able to bear against the Empire. And that's about it. Had she succeeded in her quest, who knows what would have happened. Magical blessings might have meant Sartar was left alone as the Lunar Empire tore itself apart in struggles. Who knows? But the key story point is that the Red Goddess intervened in Kallyr's ritual and it failed. The Lunar Empire was determined to reconquer Sartar by force. 6 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orlanthatemyhamster Posted October 29 Share Posted October 29 On 10/20/2024 at 4:12 PM, Rodney Dangerduck said: Kallyr died heroically at the Battle of Queens, leaving behind a free Sartar. As I posted on this thread 3 years ago, that doesn't feel like failure. Or you have impossibly high standards. I don't think that, it's the way it is currently painted. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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