Rune magic evolution

[Westnovote]

I'm catching up with as much RuneQuest material as I can cram into my non-working waking hours, having been away for so long, and I came across an episode of The Grognard Files where MOB enthusiastically talked about the new edition.  It's in episode 22.

Around 9 minutes into the episode MOB talks about the changes to Rune magic and explains how in the new edition (RQ:G) initiates don't have to sacrifice for specific spells, they just gain rune points with that deity and gain access to all of the spells for that cult (plus the common rune spells).

This is actually the system David Cheng was arguing for in Tales.. 12, and Nick Brooke proposed a revision to one-use rune magic which also seems to have been pretty much adopted in the new rules.

Apologies if this has already been discussed, but I'm very interested to see how we've gone from RQ3 through to RQG via the contributors to Tales, but it seems that at the last minute someone decided to pull back from the brink and revert to sacrificing for specific spells.

I may have simply misunderstood both the rules and the historical evolution of the system, but I'd be interested to hear people's thoughts.

Edited August 22, 2020 by Westnovote
Typos

[soltakss]

It is probably a halfway house. Initiates get access to all Common Runemagic, without having to gain them specifically. They can gain a new Runespell every time they add to the Rune Pool, which gives them access to a named Runespell. It may be that giving worshippers access to all Runemagic means that there is little distinction between worshippers.

[jajagappa]

2 hours ago, Westnovote said:

explains how in the new edition (RQ:G) initiates don't have to sacrifice for specific spells, they just gain rune points with that deity and gain access to all of the spells for that cult (plus the common rune spells)

2 hours ago, Westnovote said:

Apologies if this has already been discussed, but I'm very interested to see how we've gone from RQ3 through to RQG via the contributors to Tales, but it seems that at the last minute someone decided to pull back from the brink and revert to sacrificing for specific spells.

There was a change made on this between the Quickstart and the final RQG release.  IIRC, playtesting indicated that either having all rune spells available was hard to remember for new players, or that it was somewhat overwhelming.  

By focusing additions of the special cult Rune spells with the addition of Rune points, it made it easier to remember what they had (on top of the common Rune spells) and perhaps helped the player refine their character better.  

Either way it is decidedly different from RQ2/3 where you had to explicitly sacrifice POW for a specific spell.  Now you sacrifice for Rune points.  When you gain a Rune point, you learn how to invoke another Rune spell.

 

[David Scott]

2 hours ago, jajagappa said:

When you gain a Rune point, you learn how to invoke another Rune spell.

Not quite, page 275 says about new initiates:

Quote

The new initiate gains access to all common Rune spells known to the cult and chooses one cult special Rune spell.

however if you want another cult special, the same page says:

Quote

At the gamemaster’s discretion, an initiate can gain access to the cult’s special Rune spells in return for exceptional service to the cult, by donating the equivalent of 100 L per point of the spell, or for other reasons that further the cult’s goals and standing.

Acquiring rune points and special rune magic needn't happen at the same time.

This is different from character generation, where adventures get 3 rune points and three cult special spells (not spell points).

It would be possible to have an adventurer to have built up 10 rune points, but only have their 3 original cult special spells.

[Westnovote]

Cheers all.

As a returning player the new system for rune(divine) magic is a significant change, but a refreshing one.  The move from holy hand grenade to divine arsenal (or close) is most welcome.

[Bill the barbarian]

15 minutes ago, Westnovote said:

As a returning player the new system for rune(divine) magic is a significant change, but a refreshing one.  The move from holy hand grenade to divine arsenal (or close) is most welcome.

I could never remember the count of the holy hand grenade, was it 3 or 4?

 

6 hours ago, jajagappa said:

There was a change made on this between the Quickstart and the final RQG release.  IIRC, playtesting indicated that either having all rune spells available was hard to remember for new players, or that it was somewhat overwhelming.  

 

Luckily you missed this moment in the history of Rune Magic evolution.  Thankfully it was quickly abandoned. 

Edited August 22, 2020 by Bill the barbarian

[Shiningbrow]

Slightly tangential...

When a lay person gets initiated and sacrifices their first point of POW, do they suddenly know how to cast all Common Rune Spells? Or do.they need a week to lean each?

ETA: if it does take time (as it should), surely being a member of multiple cults would also mean having to learn all those Common spells all over again, because it's not "a spell", it's "invoking the deity".

Edited August 23, 2020 by Shiningbrow

[Bill the barbarian]

5 minutes ago, Shiningbrow said:

When a lay person gets initiated and sacrifices their first point of POW, do they suddenly know how to cast all Common Rune Spells? Or do.they need a week to lean each?

 

Interesting question and I do not believe I have see that in the  RAW, but I will note here  that not all cults have all common Rune Spells, Do check the RQ RiG or other future sources (i.e. GaGoG, etc.) for a Cult’s common Rune Spells 

 

5 minutes ago, Shiningbrow said:

ETA: if it does take time (as it should), surely being a member of multiple cults would also mean having to learn all those Common spells all over again, because it's not "a spell", it's "invoking the deity".

I have seen the designers say about questions like this that the GM (I would say "the table", but that's me) can make their own decisions, which I like immensely!  I have seen people be most negative about having no firm answer from Chaosium but I like the explicit right to decide to make it crunchier or not.

 

Cheers

[Richard S.]

41 minutes ago, Shiningbrow said:

When a lay person gets initiated and sacrifices their first point of POW, do they suddenly know how to cast all Common Rune Spells? Or do.they need a week to lean each?

Personally, I'd say they can just use them. Common spells are the most basic powers that any god can give, you don't need a deep understanding of a myth or much practice to use them.

[soltakss]

6 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

When a lay person gets initiated and sacrifices their first point of POW, do they suddenly know how to cast all Common Rune Spells? Or do.they need a week to lean each?

They have access to them immediately. You don't need to learn Common Magic, you can just cast it.

[Jeff]

5 minutes ago, soltakss said:

They have access to them immediately. You don't need to learn Common Magic, you can just cast it.

Yes - I figure they are all part of the initiation process.

[PhilHibbs]

On 8/23/2020 at 4:18 AM, Shiningbrow said:

When a lay person gets initiated and sacrifices their first point of POW, do they suddenly know how to cast all Common Rune Spells? Or do.they need a week to lean each?

ETA: if it does take time (as it should), surely being a member of multiple cults would also mean having to learn all those Common spells all over again, because it's not "a spell", it's "invoking the deity".

@Jeff answered officially, but I'd say it's open to interpretation (as all things are, of course).

The rules are for adventurers, who have been initated into one cult for three years, and by that time they will have learned all the spells.

Maybe it takes a week each.

Maybe you can learn one at every Holy Day worship ceremony.

Maybe it's quicker to learn all the common spells for a second cult after you've learned them for your first cult, so whilst it might have taken you a year to learn them on first initiation, when you join another cult during play that gives the same common spells you learn them almost immediately. "Oh, Multispell†, yeah I remembering how Orlanth did that, and Yinkin seems to have done it much the same way. Next!" Not all cults get all the common spells, so your first cult might not have given you them all. Not getting them all pretty much as a package deal would lead to bookkeeping nightmares, where someone who is in three cults would have to maintain three separate lists of common rune spells.

Which do you prefer? YGWV.

†Gloranthans don't usually use RuneQuest spell names, though.

Edited August 25, 2020 by PhilHibbs

[French Desperate WindChild]

4 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

Which do you prefer? YGWV.

maybe these spells (i call them prayers) are so common that you have so many times heard them that you already know it before the initiation. But without the initiation you cannot ask your god to do the job for you.

that's the main difference with special cult spells, you need to be "initiated" to deeper secrets

[Shiningbrow]

On 8/25/2020 at 10:39 PM, PhilHibbs said:

Not all cults get all the common spells, so your first cult might not have given you them all. Not getting them all pretty much as a package deal would lead to bookkeeping nightmares, where someone who is in three cults would have to maintain three separate lists of common rune spells.

Only if each cult has a different list. If a cult has All, then write "All". Or, you could have "All except..."

 

On 8/25/2020 at 10:39 PM, PhilHibbs said:

†Gloranthans don't usually use RuneQuest spell names, though.

That has far greater significance than first glance would suggest....

[Lordabdul]

On 8/25/2020 at 7:39 AM, PhilHibbs said:

†Gloranthans don't usually use RuneQuest spell names, though.

Biturian Varosh did    But yes, I agree -- I don't use the rulebook terms "in-world" either (and attributed Biturian's language to an "incorrect translation").

On 8/25/2020 at 7:39 AM, PhilHibbs said:

Maybe you can learn one at every Holy Day worship ceremony.

I'm going with something a bit like this for my Bachad tribe saga game where the PCs start as kids. I figured that the Common Rune Spells are what most people know if they have been initiated into a cult for 3 years or more. So I divided the list by 3, and then further divided that by the number of seasons and notable holy days per year, to figure out how to hand them out. I can't remember what I ended up with (I don't have my notes with me here), but you can vaguely see where this goes.