Why Hendriki and Heortlanders have been left out from RQG?

[Beorne]

I'm newbie to Glorantha, having only about one and a half year of occasional study of this wonderful world. I have a question arised since the start of Runequest Glorantha reading.

In RQG you can play a Sartarite, a Tarshite, a Lunar, a Praxian etc, different cultures in and around Dragon Pass and Prax. But players from Hendrikland / Heortland have been left out.

They are culturally very similar to Sartarite, and are dwelling between Sartar and Prax. In what they differ from Sartarite culture? And why they have been left out?

Thanks

[Minlister]

My guess is that they are are kept in reserve for an Esrolian book as it would have been difficult to present their specificity outside this overall context. But I am purely guessing.

[soltakss]

1 hour ago, Beorne said:

They are culturally very similar to Sartarite, and are dwelling between Sartar and Prax.

Yes, you should be able to use the Sartarite homeland for them, without too much trouble.

1 hour ago, Beorne said:

In what they differ from Sartarite culture?

Probably not by much. Some of the family history might be different, they might use different weapons, that kind of thing. They worship the same deities as the Sartarites, though.

1 hour ago, Beorne said:

And why they have been left out?

Presumably because the book was big enough as it is. They can be included in a future campaign pack.

 

[Westnovote]

50 minutes ago, soltakss said:

2 hours ago, Beorne said:

In what they differ from Sartarite culture?

Probably not by much.

Agree - probably not by much.  But I'm interested in what would differ.  Heortland is the old country, and the Orlanthi who migrated to what would become Sartar were doing so for reasons of cultural and religious differences and freedoms.  Not much will have changed in just 300 years, and Sartar is still reasonably close to Heortland, but I expect there are many subtle differences which to an outsider would seem very small, but to the people in question will seem significant, almost strange.

[jajagappa]

2 hours ago, Beorne said:

In RQG you can play a Sartarite, a Tarshite, a Lunar, a Praxian etc, different cultures in and around Dragon Pass and Prax. But players from Hendrikland / Heortland have been left out.

They are culturally very similar to Sartarite, and are dwelling between Sartar and Prax. In what they differ from Sartarite culture? And why they have been left out?

There's only so much room in RQG and the 6 chosen cultures give you:  Storm worshipers (Sartar), Earth worshipers (Esrolia), Fire worshipers (Grazelands), Lunar Tarsh (Moon worshipers), Old Tarsh (a cultural mix), and Prax (spirit cults, nomads).  Heortland would largely duplicate Sartar from that perspective, so an obvious one to leave out from a space perspective.

However, there is a nod to part of Heortland in the sorcery chapter with the notes on Aeolianism, a practice common to the Esvulari culture of southern Heortland.

And that leads to what is similar/different.  Broadly there are two major cultural groups:  Heortling (i.e. Volsaxi around Whitewall) and Esvulari (centered on Mount Passant and Refuge, but extending up through Durengard).  Two smaller cultural groups are the Kitori (darkness worshiping folk that are a mix of humans and trolls in the Troll Woods) and what I term the Pelaskites (the fisherfolk of the coasts and islands).

Of the Heortlings, those can be sub-divided into: the Volsaxi who are very similar to the Sartarites, except that they do not adopt the Orlanth Rex subcult but instead unite only around the "heirs" of Vingkot (those who can claim and gain the famed Sword and Helm of Vingkot as High King Broyan did recently); and the Vandari (the "loyalists") who accepted the rule of Belintar the God-king and his Governors and are largely clan-based.  In many places (e.g. Durengard where Belintar's Magic Road went to and the Governor of Heortland lived), there's been a mixing of typical Orlanthi and Esvulari practices so that there is some stratification between "noble" clans (who are the leaders and priests of Orlanth and Ernalda), "wizardly" clans (the Esvulari who practice sorcery), and the "common" clans (who worship the other deities).

So, enough complexity that it deserves its own Homeland book, but yet not at all distant from Sartar.

1 hour ago, soltakss said:

Some of the family history might be different, they might use different weapons, that kind of thing. They worship the same deities as the Sartarites, though.

You can readily use the Sartar family history and be reasonably correct - Heortlings joined the Sartarites in the fights against the Lunars (they sent reinforcements to Sartar in 1602 for instance that were defeated/destroyed at Quackford and Caroman Pass by the Lunars), the Lunars attacked the heirs of Sartar in the Holy Country (i.e. Karse in Heortland among other places), and the invasion of Heortland/Siege of Whitewall (1619-21) occurred there.

 

[Joerg]

There is northern Heortland, mainly the Marzeel River Valley and those of its tributaries, formerly ruled by Broyan of the Volsaxi until the Lunar occupation, mostly independent from the Holy Country, centered upon Whitewall and home to the Volsaxi tribes. Smithstone is the other main urban center, and the Denserev Great Library of Lhankor Mhy which (ironically?) specializes on oral tradition rather than written documents. This area has not been ruled by the Holy Country since the Kitori Wars, and is pretty much the same as the tribes of Sartar, with the possible exception of the Volsaxi Tribe which appears to be significantly larger than any Sartarite tribe, even larger than the Colymar tribe that had assimilated two minor tribes (Runegate Triaty, Tree Triaty). But then the Colymar tribe is as untypical for a Sartarite tribe as you can get, and we will have to wait for the Jonstown material to learn about the RQG treatment of a more typical tribe. (HQG has the wonderful books by Ian Cooper dealing with the Red Cow Clan of the Dinacoli tribe as part of a city confederation.)

There are areas in northern Heortland which are unlike Sartar: Sun Dome County, the Yelmalian theocracy where sun worshipers of Sartarite (and ultimately Kethaelan) ancestry lord over enslaved and magically crippled descendants of the Kitori as mercenaries. Pegasus Plateau tells how several clans of the Locaem formed the core of these templars, boosted with sun worshipers from other tribes all around the Quivin Mountains, and possibly even some from the Dinacoli north of the Creek (to whom Yelmalio was nothing new, but lording over a subject Darkness tribe was).

Northern Heortland also has the Wasp Nest, the Troll Woods where the refugee free Kitori hide out with their troll allies, and the Lead Hills with the two flanking marshes (Dammed Marsh and Blackwind Marsh) inhabited by trolls subject to the Shadow Plateau.

Unless you insist on getting a city map of Smithstone, you have about as much information on the upper Marzeel Valley Orlanthi as you have for most of the Sartarite tribes.

 

The former Kingdom of Malkonwal is the main portion of Heortland. For some reason, this three-year reign of the Seshnegi mercenary king seems to have overwritten the fact of pretty much exactly 300 years of the land being ruled by appointees of Belintar as the Storm Sixth of the Holy Country. The Lunar occupation lasted almost twice as long as Rikard's reign. Fazzur Wideread brought a provinicial administration similar to that he had instituted after the Starbrow Rebellion in Sartar (where he had picked up the tattered remnants of the Assiday administration, brought in fresh Tarshite and Provincial administrators and occupation forces and restored much of the mercantile wealth that the Assiday had simply confiscated).

I suppose Jeff might disagree with me about several details, but my idea of occupied Heortland under Fazzur has the administration of that new province centered on Karse, where Fazzur prepared his take-over of the rest of the Holy Country, with trusted deputies from both the Kingdom of Tarsh, the Satrapy of Sylila and the Provincial Government in Mirin's Cross and detachments of the Provincial Army keeping the peace and raking in the taxes, enriching Fazzur, the kingdom of Tarsh, and the Provincial Government and cutting off some of the Heartland families, notably the Assiday family whose new family head kept himself busy ruining the peace and commerce in Sartar by inflicting atrocities on the Dundealos and neighboring tribes for his New Temple project (presented as the project of the Imperial College of Magic and the Temple of the Reaching Moon).

Note that Fazzur was investing in expanding the Glowline, too, probably backed by the Eel-ariash connections of the royal house of Tarsh to which his own family had almost as good ties as the royal descendants of Hon-eel had. The Cradle incident toppled Sor-eel and damaged EelAriash influence in the provinces just as Tatius pushed through his own New Lunar Temple project with his Glamourite connections.

The administration of Tatius the Bright in "Malkonwal" was a lot less consolidated than that under Fazzur, and little is known about the fate of the Tarshite and Heartlander administrators of that province during and after the Windstop, or of the fate of those Malkioni overlords who had arranged themselves with Fazzur after Rikard's defeat. Fazzur's practice of suborning local powers and aligning them with the Lunar government (like e.g. the "pacification" of the Balmyr) was quite different from the blatant disregard Tatius had for any of the Provincial natives (presumably even those from long-Lunarized Saird).

 

We know the names of Belintar's appointees from History of the Heortling Peoples, and we know that their kingdom imposed a number of administrative and military demands on the Heortlings living there that the ancestors of the Sartarite tribes disagreed with. HotHP goes into some details about Belintar's administration there. The Prince of Sartar webcomic hints at the imprisonment of the Spirit of Freedom by Belintar, apparently a manifestation of Larnste which had prevented the main portion of Heortland from becoming too unruly. Any manifestation of Larnsti magics had to leave the direct influence of Belintar's governors, whether at Whitewall, or even further north by Sartar the founding hero. When Jar-eel assassinated Belintar, that magic became available to Broyan, and later to Argrath. (In a way, she may have created her own Shadow through this act.)

 

Pegasus Plateau has a short (and IMO very over-generalized) mention of "the Hendriki" as an opposition to the player characters in the Pegasus Plateau scenario. It could lead to completely wrong extrapolations for the region south of Volsaxiland.

Something completely new and hardly explored in southern Heortland are the Aeolian Esvulari, and how they interact with the regular Heortlings of the region. Jeff has provided a few hints in various threads here, but I find it hard to create material that won't be contradicted by future official treatment of the region.

 

Urban Heortland will be similar to urban Sartar,, as that's what Sartar and Wilms relied on when they instituted the Tribal Confederation cities in Quviniland. I don't expect the inner workings of the city council to resemble those of Wilmskirk, Jonstown or Swenstown. They may bear more similarity to the administration of New Pavis, although presumably with weaker city gods than that unusual city.

Heortland has larger cities than Sartar, with only Boldhome playing in the same league (and outdoing some of the Heortland cities). But then Boldhome is almost as atypical for a Sartarite city as is Pavis, with the troll quarter, the dwarf-build portions, etc.

 

And then there is Karse, with its Pelaskite heritage, Tarkalor's Wharf, and the remaining influence of Fazzur's government and the friends it made. But that's a topic for itself.

Edited August 23, 2020 by Joerg
clarification "twice as long"

[jajagappa]

15 minutes ago, Westnovote said:

Not much will have changed in just 300 years, and Sartar is still reasonably close to Heortland

The big difference is the presence of Belintar.  He's not just king, but a God, and there's a reason that this is part of the "Holy" Country - it is close to the Otherworld, and the Gods.

Consequently, it is blessed, relatively peaceful, and there is little need for higher levels of organization (e.g. tribes) because Belintar and his Governor are there and bring prosperity to the land.  And then Belintar is killed in 1616, and it all falls apart.  By late 1625, there has been Civil War, Lunar invasions, the Great Winter, eruptions of Chaos/scorpionmen, more Civil War, and Wolf Pirate raids/attacks.  The potential leader, Broyan, has just been killed (by Lunars? by Kitori? by someone else? - speculation abounds).  So, Heortland is disorganized, depopulated, and very disrupted.     

[jajagappa]

6 minutes ago, Joerg said:

Pegasus Plateau has a short (and IMO very over-generalized) mention of "the Hendriki" as an opposition to the player characters in the Pegasus Plateau scenario. It could lead to completely wrong extrapolations for the region south of Volsaxiland.

These "Hendriki" are the Olontongi, a "tribe" of Heortling warbands that followed Broyan and have "settled" around New Town below Whitewall (and claimed land around it, particularly parts of the old Sylangi tribes land).

[scott-martin]

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

Something completely new and hardly explored in southern Heortland are the Aeolian Esvulari, and how they interact with the regular Heortlings of the region. Jeff has provided a few hints in various threads here, but I find it hard to create material that won't be contradicted by future official treatment of the region.

One pragmatic methodology would be to work in the "short realm" the acceleration to 1625 has given us and concoct snapshots of the region in 1616-24. This would allow space for exploration without forcing any assumptions about the state of play in the publishing present, effectively feeding Jonstown Compendium effort that might or might not persist into the Hero Wars.

This is important because (a) the aeolians provide a wonderful transition experience from pure storm polytheism into the westernized complex as our view of the lozenge expands (b) I suspect the rise and fall of Malkonwal was the kind of highly overdetermined situation that looks from the outside like a classic tabletop campaign. A lot of crazy fun stuff probably went down there and a lot of crazy fun stuff was left behind . . . or scattered to nearby regions where it will be in play in 1625+.

Few things can disrupt the tabletop status quo like a cabal or two of desperate sorcerers hundreds of miles from home with no easy return ticket. Even if most were safely neutralized in the 1620-24 disasters, they leave tempting magical wreckage behind. And if a significant population of those sorcerers were infected with any kind of apocalyptic fever to begin with, the impacts stretch to truly MGF proportions.

The Malkonwal moment probably doesn't accurately reflect what we'll eventually find out about the authentic Hero Wars West or even conventional Aeolian spirituality in 1625. But it gets us closer. And one day when we all stand in the New New Malkonwal and all voices are raised in the Correction Song of Sri Bertilak, Sri Rimans and Little Shri Agga, marveling as the Spike rises in an explosion of glitter and pearls.

[David Scott]

5 hours ago, Beorne said:

They are culturally very similar to Sartarite, and are dwelling between Sartar and Prax. In what they differ from Sartarite culture?

As others have said, not much.

5 hours ago, Beorne said:

And why they have been left out?

Like a lot of things in RQG - space. While a minority would enjoy the eight volume RQG epic it could have been. I personally find the slipcase set enough to cart around 🙂

It shouldn't be to hard to make your own homeland version:

Don't forget that the start of the Sartar homeland (page 103) it says:

Quote

The Sartar Homeland also includes the Hendriki of Whitewall, even though they have never been ruled by the Princes of Sartar.

and Whitewall (page 108-109) has details of Hendriki clans. Likewise the Hendriking Campaign is part of Family History.

It's quite easy make your own version of Hendrikland / Heortland, basing it on the structure of of the Sartar homeland:

Hendrikland / Heortland

• intro
• Short History
• Stereotype
• Common Attitudes
• Politics
• Religion
• Climate
• Regions

@Jeff's provided most of the info you need here https://basicroleplaying.org/topic/12238-holy-country-notes/

with the four regions clearly defined:

Volsaxi - from the Crossline to the Marzeel River.

Vandarland - from the Marzeel to either the Syphon or the Bullflood rivers.

Gardufar - from the Syphon or Bullflood rivers to the Minthos.

Esvular - from the Minthos to the Nomad Marches.

 

just pull out a couple of cities like the homeland sections do.

 

The only bit that will affect an adventurer that comes from here is the Local Modifier.

 

[g33k]

Thank you @Joerg  &  @David Scott  & everyone else to greater or lesser degrees (emphatically including @Beorne for kicking off the topic) -- very very useful !

 

[Orlanthatemyhamster]

On 8/23/2020 at 2:57 PM, Joerg said:

There are areas in northern Heortland which are unlike Sartar: Sun Dome County, the Yelmalian theocracy where sun worshipers of Sartarite (and ultimately Kethaelan) ancestry lord over enslaved and magically crippled descendants of the Kitori as mercenaries. Pegasus Plateau tells how several clans of the Locaem formed the core of these templars, boosted with sun worshipers from other tribes all around the Quivin Mountains, and possibly even some from the Dinacoli north of the Creek (to whom Yelmalio was nothing new, but lording over a subject Darkness tribe was).

Can I ask where this information is, please? Is this just your interpretation/campaign?

[Joerg]

2 hours ago, Orlanthatemyhamster said:

Can I ask where this information is, please? Is this just your interpretation/campaign?

It is from many places. The Sun Dome County description in Wyrm's Footnotes 15, the Kitori descriptions in the last three volumes of the Stafford Library, and discussions e.g. on this board on the Elmal/Yelmalio schism. The Locaem info is in Pegasus Plateau (and some more detail of it is in Dragon Pass: Land of Thunder). Some of the Kitori/Volsaxi/Sun Dome County dates are in the Guide to Glorantha, and a few more are in the Pavis Book (which states that templars from Sartar accompany Dorasar).

The Dinacoli being Tarshite-descended and their sun-worshipers having always been of Yelmalio is pretty canonical, participation of (some of) their sun worshipers in re-populating the Sun Dome Temple at Vanntar is pure speculation on my part.

There is controversy about this incident, and about the severity of the sun worshipers refusing their prince to follow into war against Tarsh. Right now my impression is that the Eyetooth Clan which had the antesmia statue (mentioned in King of Sartar, which started that entire Elmal thing) was something that happened on the outskirts of Kitori-controlled Vanntar among the Locaem tribe.

Too much to recapitulate here at short notice.

[David Scott]

On 8/23/2020 at 2:57 PM, Joerg said:

There are areas in northern Heortland which are unlike Sartar: Sun Dome County, the Yelmalian theocracy where sun worshipers of Sartarite (and ultimately Kethaelan) ancestry lord over enslaved and magically crippled descendants of the Kitori as mercenaries.

14 hours ago, Joerg said:

It is from many places. The Sun Dome County description in Wyrm's Footnotes 15, the Kitori descriptions in the last three volumes of the Stafford Library, and discussions e.g. on this board on the Elmal/Yelmalio schism.

The Sun Dome is the the Sartar Homeland, and is described on page 108, Here's the 2018 Sartar:KoH map to give you an idea of the boundaries (there have been some changes in the last 7 years):

Look at page 246 in the guide and it shows the main areas and sub areas you might want to consider.

[Jeff]

I think I have included this tribal map before, but here it is again:
 

[Jeff]

And here's the Heortland part:

 

[Joerg]

The presence of the Olontongi indicates that we are indeed in the post-Windstop time.

So what's the deal with the Kultain? Are the "ruins of the Sylangi and Kultain tribes" (p.109) still inhabited by some of the original clans, retaining a modicum of tribal identity?

[jajagappa]

52 minutes ago, Joerg said:

Are the "ruins of the Sylangi and Kultain tribes" (p.109) still inhabited by some of the original clans, retaining a modicum of tribal identity?

Yes. (Or perhaps it is revived/restored tribal identity)

[Orlanthatemyhamster]

20 hours ago, Joerg said:

It is from many places.

Too much to recapitulate here at short notice.

Sorry, I should have been more specific. The information about the Yelmalions and that they, 'lord over enslaved and magically crippled descendants of the Kitori as mercenaries'.

[M Helsdon]

2 hours ago, Orlanthatemyhamster said:

Sorry, I should have been more specific. The information about the Yelmalions and that they, 'lord over enslaved and magically crippled descendants of the Kitori as mercenaries'.

Wyrms Footnotes 15 is perhaps the best source.

https://www.chaosium.com/wyrms-footnotes-15-pdf/

Edited August 25, 2020 by M Helsdon

[Leingod]

1 hour ago, M Helsdon said:

Wyrms Footnotes 15 is perhaps the best source.

https://www.chaosium.com/wyrms-footnotes-15-pdf/

It's also perhaps a useful source here as it provides some explanations of where the various Sartarite groups come from and what that means, albeit mostly in terms of "They're patrilineal/matrilineal/mixed, they prefer X and Y weapons, and they usually do/do not practice slavery." With more Hendriki influence meaning a higher likelihood of being patrilineal and not practicing slavery.

[g33k]

On 8/23/2020 at 9:08 AM, David Scott said:

...

Like a lot of things in RQG - space...

Just wanting to focus the OP's answer on this point.

It's the TL;DR answer to the question "why wasn't <X> included?" -- Space.  Wordcount, pagecount, book size.

 

I'm equally wanting more Homeland detail on Esrolia & Prax -- I find them both a bit shorted, honestly, in the core Homeland family-history.  I get it -- Sartar/DP is the core region, so other areas get less detail.  But I expect Esrolia could have per-Enfranchised-Great-House backgrounds, and minor Houses, and Tributary clans/families/etc, all as much more distinctively-different backgrounds.  Similarly, I'd like to see each of the Great Tribes of Prax get a bit of differentiation... plus specifics for all the Minor Tribes (which are entirely omitted as character options in the core book!).

 

[Tony Davis]

In my house campaign people from Jansholm can pick Sartarite Whitewall style backgrounds or Esrolian North March style backgrounds and both be fine for play and even be related.  There's always room for drama between Air Based Country Folk and Earthish City People.  

[Tony Davis]

In my Jansholm game, I allow players to pick between Sartar Whitewall style background and Esrolia North March style background. Esvulari players swap out one Sartar Homeland Weapon of their choice for Household Management regardless of gender.  The remnant of the Heortland Sixth should be a wild mashup of cultures that used to 'live in perfect harmony' but now... do not.  

[jajagappa]

48 minutes ago, Tony Davis said:

The remnant of the Heortland Sixth should be a wild mashup of cultures that used to 'live in perfect harmony' but now... do not. 

It's still a dominant place of Storm, even among the Esvulari. The key with the Esvulari is that they see the gods as Emanations of the Invisible God, and Orlanth and Ernalda as the pre-eminent ones. The largest distinctions between Volsaxi, Hendriki, and those of southern Heortland are attitudes about leadership.

The Volsaxi are very tribal - some small, some quite large with many clans. The Orlanth Rex cult exists here, but only at the tribal level. Briefly King Broyan united them as he bore the sacred Sword and Helm, and was marked as the heir of Vingkot. But he is now dead, and there is no one to reunite them.

The Hendriki are very clan-based - no one can make them do anything, including agreeing to form tribes or confederations despite the threat of Chaos from the Footprint.

Further south, the Esvulari have influenced the Heortlanders in thinking of leadership as coming from distinct noble lineages/families. These families trace their ancestral lines to Aeol, and ultimately Orlanth. Like westerners, they maintain themselves as a distinct caste and control the Orlanth and Ernalda priesthoods. But there is no single leader among them either with the God-king gone and the Wolf Pirates acting as a constant threat along the coasts.

With the growing threat of Chaos, folk are increasingly looking to Storm Bull khans, mercenary commanders, or whichever of the Volsaxi tribal kings or southern Heortland leaders proves strongest.