Why I don't think of Orlanthi as a naval culture

[Bill the barbarian]

21 minutes ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

A culture that can predict and control the wind would make a superb naval power, even with limited experience at sea.  Your hypothesis strikes me as bizarre.

I had better defend @Joerg and those holding like opinions here. Wile Storm is mighty, it would do well not to challenge Water in its own domain without many teleports, long extensions to Fly and sylphs of great power to aid with their inevitable retreats.

I was just saying Orlanthi do take to the oceans not that they could conquer them. I imagine they sail the waves with a little fear and a great deal of respect. 

Edited August 29, 2020 by Bill the barbarian

[metcalph]

4 minutes ago, Bill the barbarian said:

I was just saying Orlanthi do take to the oceans not that they could conquer them. I imagine they sail the waves with a little fear and a great deal of respect. 

Everybody sails the waves with a little fear and a great deal of respect.  

[Joerg]

Great responses to this thread, everybody.

 

Glorantha is a world of myths that define their cultures. The deeds of the ancestors and the deities set cultural patterns that are hard to break out of for individuals or entire tribes.

In order to be a naval culture, you have to live in an area with access to a sufficiently dimensioned body of water. That body of water may very well be an inland body of water - Lake Felster has a long-lasting history of naval activity, so does the Sweet Sea (although it suffered its own form of the Closing during the Syndic's Ban). The Elf Sea and Hot Lake in Pent not so much.

You need to have a tradition of ship-building, and ships will take part in your rites. I would argue that the Pithdaran Agimori came from a naval culture with their spirit boats that almost allowed them to cross the Homeward Ocean to fight Gbaji. (It would have been interesting to see which side they would have supported.)  These Agimori (not just the ones who made it across the ocean, if belatedly, but also their kin who remained in Pamaltela) use these boats in their rites, they probably have artistic representations of these in their habitat area. Think ship burials, for instance - not necessary with a ship carrying off the corpse, or serving as the cask, but maybe just the outline of a ship indicated by stones or plants arranged around the grave.

Do river folk qualify as naval cultures? I think that it depends. Whenever you have rivers or canals, they offer a fairly obvious advantage for transport of heavy things. This is fine even if the water isn't there all the time, like a huge floodplain or wadden sea area, or rivers that are open for travel only part of the year, being too dry or frozen over the rest of the year.

But then, using water craft drawn from the land in a way similar to sleds doesn't make a naval culture. Murzarham's Dara Happa may have had huge barges drawn up and down the Oslir and its tributaries by gazzam, possibly gazzam wading through shallow stretches of the river at times, but I wouldn't call that a naval culture even though they would depend greatly on those barges delivering stuff and people.

Marsh dwellers in areas with significant stretches of open water between soggy ground poling their craft off the shallow ground may have a boat building tradition, but they too are gaining traction from the earth rather than from the waters. Paddling is an easy concept, though, and as long as you have a sufficiently low railing it is an option to gain traction from water. The Polynesians and the Atlantic Megalith folk used paddling for incredible voyages, and a raid from a paddled ship like the Hjortspring boat would have been little different from one performed from the Nydam boat which was rowed.

Using the wind for propulsion is a surprisingly recent invention, and it was made (in all likelihood not exclusively, but very early) on the Nile which has the nice feature of a more or less steady southward wind that could be used to push ships upriver. To the extent that the Egyptian hieroglyph for south or upriver is a stylized boat with a sail, for north or downriver a boat without a sail.

Using a water creature or a magically summoned current for propulsion has no real world precedents. I don't think anybody uses propellers in Glorantha - not even for flight, as the pedalcopter built by Leonardo the Scientist appears to be some form of ornithopter.

 

The defining element of Orlanthi culture is that of upland hill dwellers  around a holy mountain who practice transhumance for much of their herds. There are plenty Orlanthi in lowlands, but even those look towards holy mountains for their identity.

Orlanth has an entire cycle of myths dedicated to his war with and eventual victory over the invading Seas in the Storm Age, but neither side was using ships in any way. It was the coming of Sshorg reprised, blown up in dimension. Orlanth's previous victory gave him an advantage, the lesser Dara Happan victory over the already weakened river sent onwards to them proved to be lacking.

Orlanth does have a few other myths about interaction with the seas. He was (in all likelihood) part of the Vadrudi host that captured the granddaughters (n times removed) of Triolina in the "wife taking" that resulted in the birth of the Triolini merfolk (and somehow Gloranthan myth is going through loops and twists to make this something other than chaotic rape).

Then there is his raid on the Well of Daliath. We know very little about this, as it is mentioned as a side remark how him surviving the Baths of Nelat enabled him to pass the Flame of Ehilm largely unharmed. My pet theory is that this occurred when or after Magasta sealed away the Chaos Void. The funnel of water in the newly forming Homeward Ocean does draw down an air current into the depths of the deepest seas, the Underworld, and possibly the Chaos Void, and that would have been Orlanth's chance to visit and raid those places.

It is possible that the story of Aerlit and Warera Triolina, and their son Malkion, is part of this. Aerlit surely is a local mountain wind "much like Orlanth" or "a local aspect of Orlanth". Plenty of mythical and historical interaction with the Pendali and the Seshnegi, and some Pendali may also be descended from this deity - possibly explaining Greymane's dual nature as Orlanthi and lion shapeshifter. But I disgress.

There are fewer myths about Orlanth that involve boats. As the master of Air, Orlanth doesn't really need a vessel to get anywhere above the seas, his breath body already is there. On occasion, he needs a platform to interact with something in the seas, though.

There is Varanorlanth's chase of the uncatchable beast which either turns into the Devil Fish or gets derailed, but which has Varanorlanth create a boat out of the carapace of a beetle protector sent agains him by his original prey. There is the aid Orlanth gave to the Diroti children of Sofala against the Seabird Army,  but he did that while flying.

Orlanth's mortal offspring are much less enduring flyers than their ancestral deity. I wonder whether the Wind Children from the Storm Mountains eyries do on occassion hunt the surface waters of Choralinthor or Rozgali, using their sword sticks or spears to scoop up seafood. And whether such activity would be hampered by the Closing.

The human worshipers of Orlanth are a lot less empowered with flight, and the ancient rivalry of the seas might make the use of the Flight spell a lot harder over open water.

(Heler's cloud flight on the other hand should be almost impossible to crash into the seas, because of the mythical separation of Heler from the seas. But then, the cloud ships of the Helerings are a thing from the Storm Age that seem to be lost for good. Or are they?)

Then there is the Storm Tribe treatment of Pelaskos as a subcult of Orlanth that became the cultural deity of the people of Karse, and worshiped in his own rites, and there was a debate how much that write-up was applicable to the Rightarm Islanders. The Pelaskites are an Orlanthi subculture, and they are without any doubt a naval culture. In fact, being a naval culture is what sets them apart from mainstream Orlanthi culture.

Esrolia is bound to have myths about marriage to sailors, as it has myths about marriage to just about everone, and then taking over some aspect of those husband cultures. In my "Ludoch Story" mythlet that I recorded for Wind Words episode 6 as an example for what can be submitted to our contest I suggested that the Waertagi would have engaged in marriage to both the Ludoch of Mirrorsea Bay and the humans of the place, and that will have included both Pelaskites and nobility from Nochet houses. Those houses should have gained naval tradition that could have been re-awakened by Dormal's success. But as a whole, Esrolia is very much not a naval culture, either, whether we treat it as its own thing or as a subculture of Orlanthi culture.

 

The seas have been re-opened for less than half a century. Prior to that, coastal folk lived next to something almost as bad as the Chaos Voids of the Greater Darkness - a place of no return.

This makes me wonder what happened to the souls of those lost at Sea due to the Closing. Can their kinfolk contact their spirits or souls in the rites for the dead? Or is there some form of Davy Jones enslaving or devouring the souls of sailors lost to the Closing? Some form or child of Varchulanga and Drospoly?

I know of two non-God Learner individuals who returned from the Seas during the Closing prior to Dormal's Journey of Opening - Jonat Bigbear (who apparently took a ride on a sea monster) and Belintar (and yes, "non-God Learner" is speculative in his case). Looking at the God Learners, there was the heroic Last Ship from Jrustela that arrived in Seshnela, and whose crew went on to play a role in the internal conflict of the God Learners of Seshnela before their destruction.

 

But then, coastal navigation had been possible before, and archipelagos and bays remained navigable. The Kralori retained all of their naval achievements, and so did the East Islanders. Choralinthor Bay, Teshnos, Maslo, Fonrit, Ozur Bay, Maniria, Pasos, Jrustela all retained or gained navigable waters enclosed by outcrops of land.

One great naval migration took place during the Closing - the Teshnan expedition which settled the lower Zola Fel valley around 1250, led by the hero Selenteen trying to find the whereabouts of Avalor's Red Sword of Tolat. The Rozgali coast has few natives who might have tested the Closing - the only coastal population between the Zola Fel estuary and Teshnos are the Deri (a population of immortal clones made by Eurmal), and they might fear the waters as the home of the slave-taking Waertagi. It is unknown how aggressive the Closing was on this coast of undefined and insect-plagued marshes.

 

 

 

[Jeff]

2 minutes ago, metcalph said:

Everybody sails the waves with a little fear and a great deal of respect.  

This. The Ocean is a terrible and deadly foe. It should not be surprising that Death is associated with the Homeward Ocean. 

This song kept running through my head as I worked on the Water Pantheon:

Here comes the ocean
and the waves down by the sea
Here comes the ocean
and the waves where've they been?

 

Don't swim tonight my love
The sea is mad my love
It's known to drive men crazy
Now come that murder seeks
The castle is dead and reeks
The madness can make you lazy

 

Here come the waves
down by the shore
Washing the rocks that have been here
centuries or more

Down by the sea

 

Here come the ocean
and the waves down by the sea
Here comes the ocean
and the waves where've they been ?

 

Castles glowing at night
Towers above out fright
What did happen here
Now comes it in my head
I serve you bread on a pledge
Think of your mouth for dinner

 

But here come the waves
down by the sea
Washing the eyes of the men
who have died

Down by the sea

 

Here come the waves 
Here come the waves 
Here come the waves 
Here come the waves

[Joerg]

28 minutes ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

A culture that can predict and control the wind would make a superb naval power, even with limited experience at sea.  Your hypothesis strikes me as bizarre.

A culture whose magic is bent to fight the waves adversarially at every step needs a lot of restraint to make it a tame provider of propulsion.

Orlanthi magic is emulating their god, and their god is the one who blew the seas out of the lands they claimed in the Great Flood. And the seas also conspired to create their most deadly waves to crash into the holdings of this deity.

When you gather the magic of Orlanth to you, you immerse yourself into the mighty gale, the hurricane, with all its temper and rage. There are hardly any breaks like the restraints implanted by the marriage to Ernalda - on the contrary, this triggers the impulse to protect and liberate his wife.

Rune spells in RuneQuest come across as a reliable and predictable form of magic. They need to in order to give both the GM and the player a shared frame of reference and expectation. But at least in my Glorantha, the results of using this magic in someone else's magical domain will leak in heroquesting considerations. That may be unfair to players with a different expectation, and it may be unfair to GMs expecting a play by an iron-bound set of rules when they are given a scenario of mine. (I am working on stuff for the Jonstown Compendium. Nowhere near publication date at the moment, though, with Wind Words taking up much of my Glorantha time budget.)

The HeroQuest game does use these considerations in its rules. I expect the upcoming RQG supplement on heroquesting to provide similar advice to the GMs.

Biturian's Travel stories make it quite clear that heroquesting moments are something that can plague you in your pursuit of your rather mundane adventure. Whenever he interacts with Yelmalio cultists (especially Rurik), he is drawn into this set of altered reality. When he meets the Chalana Arroy priestess, he uses his own Issaries magic to bargain himself out of the heroquest, resulting in a mutually acceptable outcome as his deity strives to provide. Even if it hampers him economically. But we will surely talk about that when our podcast takes up his travels again.

 

Just because a magic appears to be useful, it doesn't make it directly fitting for a task. A lot of ideas from the egregious munchkinnery thread take on these riffs and go wild with that, and if you want to play your Glorantha along those lines, all the power to you, and have fun with it. My Glorantha is a place where magic has mythical responses.

 

Yes, any ship's captain or a fleet admiral would love to have a wind-weaver at their disposal, just like they would love to have a wave-binder to give them the currents to go where they want. Calling on these adversarial deities at the same time requires a cool head or strong boundaries. Sorcerers may be a lot better suited to invoke these deities in such a matter than people letting themselves become outlets of the deity.

[Joerg]

26 minutes ago, Jeff said:

This. The Ocean is a terrible and deadly foe. It should not be surprising that Death is associated with the Homeward Ocean. 

In many a culture, sailors had a death toll way worse than the warriors. The average life expectancy of a fisherman in the Vesterålen or Lofoten was 25 years throughout much of recorded history (i.e. death dates recorded in church books).

Cape Hoorn sailors on those great multi-masted ships carrying guano back to the fields would regularly lose a couple of sailors in the rigging or due to breakers even on successful runs, and total loss of such ships wasn't that rare, either. The Pamir (the last of these ships used commercially) sank in 1957, with only six survivors.

I don't have any numbers for whalers from Nantucket or other such ports. The Frisian islanders made a living from whaling, seal-hunting etc. on vessels under their own or foreign flags, and their death tolls were atrocious, too, although those who made it home managed to provide a fairly comfortable life for their kinfolk.

And that's just the death toll from our mundane world. The children of Drospoly and Varchulanga and the vengeful Ysabbau and Malasp add another dimension of terror, as do the sentient (though not necessarily sapient) waves that retain the original motions of the seas.

Don't underestimate the "friendly" merfolk, either. Ludoch and Ouori may be friendly or at least non-belligerent to many humans, but that's only as long as they receive the respect (and that includes tribute) they feel they and their deities of the Deep are due. I think that a good measure of the Ritual of Opening is concerned with giving this respect in a magical way, rather than a deceitful masking of the nature of the vessels traveling the waves.

In a way, the ritual may be a pledge of fealty to the lords of the waters. Which is another reason why I feel that Orlanthi in general aren't that well-suited to become sailors.

 

 

26 minutes ago, Jeff said:

This song kept running through my head as I worked on the Water Pantheon:

Here comes the ocean
and the waves down by the sea
Here comes the ocean
and the waves where've they been?

 

Don't swim tonight my love
The sea is mad my love
It's known to drive men crazy
Now come that murder seeks
The castle is dead and reeks
The madness can make you lazy

 

Here come the waves
down by the shore
Washing the rocks that have been here
centuries or more

Down by the sea

 

Here come the ocean
and the waves down by the sea
Here comes the ocean
and the waves where've they been ?

 

Castles glowing at night
Towers above out fright
What did happen here
Now comes it in my head
I serve you bread on a pledge
Think of your mouth for dinner

 

But here come the waves
down by the sea
Washing the eyes of the men
who have died

Down by the sea

 

Here come the waves 
Here come the waves 
Here come the waves 
Here come the waves

Had this come from anybody else, I would have asked why you don't submit it to our "Glorantha Has Talent" contest (sung or recited), but as one of our sponsors, I am not sure whether we could allow this.

[Bill the barbarian]

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

Had this come from anybody else, I would have asked why you don't submit it to our "Glorantha Has Talent" contest (sung or recited), but as one of our sponsors, I am not sure whether we could allow this.

I think you might be right Joerg, Yes the rules agree with you

 

Quote

 

Who may not enter

• The podcast hosts and the podcast crew, judges, and those who have given prizes for the contest Glorantha Has Talent?, AND their families.

 

Which does suck cause that would be a great entry. Still, I am sure @Jeff would prefer to give away Pegasus Plateau and The Smoking Ruins to another fine entrant than win them for himself. Mind you, he could angle for the special personalized A Rough Guide to Glamour by Nick and friends or the 8 months of Monster of the Month with that special something being added by Austin!

 

Edited August 29, 2020 by Bill the barbarian

[Jeff]

21 minutes ago, Bill the barbarian said:

I think you might be right Joerg, Yes the rules agree with you

 

Which does suck cause that would be a great entry. Still, I am sure @Jeff would prefer to give away Pegasus Plateau and The Smoking Ruins to another fine entrant than win them for himself. Mind you, he could angle for the special personalized A Rough Guide to Glamour by Nick and friends or the 8 months of Monster of the Month with that special something being added by Austin!

 

Given that it is a song written by Lou Reed, I don't really think it should count at all. But it captures the sense of dread Gloranthans have of the ocean. Again, other than the Waertagi and the East Islanders, there really aren't any established nautical cultures. Traveling on the open seas is a new thing in Glorantha and folk my age or older can remember when the seas were Closed to all.

[Brootse]

How calm are the wind in the Mirrorsea Bay?

[Akhôrahil]

On 8/28/2020 at 12:26 AM, Bill the barbarian said:

Now I do not see any reason the Dormali would cast-out an orlanthi Captain but I have found reasons they might welcome one...

That's not the problem - Dormal has no issue with it. It's Orlanth who doesn't allow you to become a soul-less sorcerer.

That said, I'm not sure we should be that incredibly strict - it's knowing one spell, not declaring for Arkat or the Invisible God.

[Jeff]

The definition of a sorcerer is someone who knows sorcerous Runes or Techniques. Open Seas can be cast without knowing any. Most initiates of Dormal know just this one spell and are not sorcerers.

Edited August 29, 2020 by Jeff

[Akhôrahil]

5 hours ago, Joerg said:

Orlanthi magic is emulating their god, and their god is the one who blew the seas out of the lands they claimed in the Great Flood. And the seas also conspired to create their most deadly waves to crash into the holdings of this deity.

When you gather the magic of Orlanth to you, you immerse yourself into the mighty gale, the hurricane, with all its temper and rage. There are hardly any breaks like the restraints implanted by the marriage to Ernalda - on the contrary, this triggers the impulse to protect and liberate his wife.

I'm loving the idea that Orlanthi sea travel would be effective but necessarily adversarial. You have to fight the seas all the way, but you're making good time!

[Leingod]

20 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

I'm loving the idea that Orlanthi sea travel would be effective but necessarily adversarial. You have to fight the seas all the way, but you're making good time!

The portrayal of sailors as bravely "fighting against" the seas is not an uncommon one, so it wouldn't be without precedent.

[Bill the barbarian]

3 hours ago, Jeff said:

Given that it is a song written by Lou Reed, I don't really think it should count at all. But it captures the sense of dread Gloranthans have of the ocean. Again, other than the Waertagi and the East Islanders, there really aren't any established nautical cultures. Traveling on the open seas is a new thing in Glorantha and folk my age or older can remember when the seas were Closed to all.

I don’t know,.I would let Lou enter. Dead or alive...

1 hour ago, Akhôrahil said:

On 8/27/2020 at 4:26 PM, Bill the barbarian said:

Now I do not see any reason the Dormali would cast-out an orlanthi Captain but I have found reasons they might welcome one...

That's not the problem - Dormal has no issue with it. It's Orlanth who doesn't allow you to become a soul-less sorcerer.

Reasonably sure I said Orlanthi Captain not a  a soul-less sorcerer.. I am not sure they are one and the same.The captain of a vessel does not a) have to be Dormali, (though the more he has in his crew, the better chance he will not be thought too odd), and b) that a Dormali has to be a sorcerer, I believe I noted one could be a soul-full shaman or c) an Orlanthi even has to worship Orlanth. or d) that an Orlanthi can not be a soul-less sorcerer. An Orlanthi can be a LM , lest one cannot be an Orlanthi and be Lhankor Mhyan this statement must be false.

Cheers .

Edited August 29, 2020 by Bill the barbarian

[Joerg]

3 hours ago, Brootse said:

How calm are the wind in the Mirrorsea Bay?

Not so calm, actually, although that may change the closer you get to the surface. There is a steady good westerly wind much of the time that brings in rain to the Heortland Plateau, Bingista the Good Wind, which got stifled first by Lokamayadon's Tarumath magics, and later by the Zistorites, and that cannot work if the Mirrorsea is a doldrum all the way up.

The calm of the sea is a magical effect of Choralinthor being strong in the sea, so even a strong wind will hardly cause any crimpling of the surface. Likewise, bow waves and even Waertagi tidal waves carrying in city ships to the drydocks of Nochet in the First and early Second Age would dampen out on the edges much earlier than they would in any other body of water.

I think this extends to the current of the Creek-Stream River, nowadays re-directed through the Lyksos estuary. While there is a strong current, there won't be any surface vortices once the river has entered the bay. The situation at Orlanth's Hill blocking a good portion of the estuary may be quite turbulent, though.

 

1 hour ago, Akhôrahil said:

I'm loving the idea that Orlanthi sea travel would be effective but necessarily adversarial. You have to fight the seas all the way, but you're making good time!

Or at least you are going to have a few good fisticuffs when something comes up to delay you.

 

It is possible that Orlanth's enmity with the Sea Tribe mellowed quite a bit after he underwent the Baths of Nelat and drank from Daliath's Well of Wisdom. But then, a worshiper of Orlanth might have to undergo some version of that trial to arrive at that peace with the seas.

 

1 hour ago, Leingod said:

The portrayal of sailors as bravely "fighting against" the seas is not an uncommon one, so it wouldn't be without precedent.

It is quite different from the Pelaskite and Esrolian approaches to dealing with the sea deities, though. The Pelaskites accept the sovereignty of the sea gods without any limitations, and also submit to their representatives, the Ludoch. The Esrolians point to ancient mythical marriages, not the least of which being Esrola and Faralinthor, and gifts received from such marriages.

The Yggites claim descent from Ygg Seastorm (himself the son of Vadrudi Storm and Sea) and a sea nymph / niiad, which gives them a degree of kinship similar to that of the Waertagi.

 

The Cetoi Triolini bear less enmity to the Storms than their Piscoi kin, their parents having arrived at a mutual agreement after their tempestuous courtship/abduction. Also, none of their ancestors were directly involved in the battles of the Trembling Shore or Thrinbarri. As far as I can make it out, the Choralinthor Ludoch are descendants of the Wartain tribe of Triolini (niiads) who entered the region with the Breaking of the World.

Edited August 29, 2020 by Joerg
Bingista vs Choralinthor

[MOB]

3 hours ago, Brootse said:

How calm are the wind in the Mirrorsea Bay?

As stated earlier in the thread:

The Mirrorsea, also known as Choralinthor Sea, has been renowned since legendary times for its tranquility. It is broad, relatively shallow (10-30 meters), well-lit and warm, abundant with marine life. The boats that ply the Mirrorsea are generally flat-bottomed and powered by oars, for the air above the Mirrorsea is remarkably stable too, quite unsuitable for sail. Though the barge captains may bemoan the necessity and expense of oarsmen, they are also grateful that only in the Storm season, when the Orlanth winds whip down from the Stormwalk mountains and churn the waves, is the Mirrorsea Bay hazardous to boat travel. For the rest of the year they may ply it in safety.

[Brootse]

26 minutes ago, MOB said:

As stated earlier in the thread:

The Mirrorsea, also known as Choralinthor Sea, has been renowned since legendary times for its tranquility. It is broad, relatively shallow (10-30 meters), well-lit and warm, abundant with marine life. The boats that ply the Mirrorsea are generally flat-bottomed and powered by oars, for the air above the Mirrorsea is remarkably stable too, quite unsuitable for sail. Though the barge captains may bemoan the necessity and expense of oarsmen, they are also grateful that only in the Storm season, when the Orlanth winds whip down from the Stormwalk mountains and churn the waves, is the Mirrorsea Bay hazardous to boat travel. For the rest of the year they may ply it in safety.

In my last campaign that was naval and pirate themed I used mostly trade galleys as merchant ships, but also larger roundships that depend mostly on sails. How canonical are they?

[scott-martin]

8 hours ago, Joerg said:

There are fewer myths about Orlanth that involve boats. As the master of Air, Orlanth doesn't really need a vessel to get anywhere above the seas, his breath body already is there. On occasion, he needs a platform to interact with something in the seas, though.

A lot of wonderful things here but this is the distinction I like best. As scrutiny of the lozenge expands, we'll discover a lot of "water" populations with original triolini descent (usually maternal, a nymph replacing an earth ancestress) but boating is not necessarily part of that birthright. If anything, as the first person in historical times to circumnavigate Iceland by kayak told me once, the whole point of boats is to avoid contact with water. If sailors loved swimming they wouldn't be sailors, and if the air wanted to cross water he would fly. 

[digression on "wareran" peoples and archaic Shargash the Sailor murals taken back to the lab for further development]

[Leingod]

3 minutes ago, scott-martin said:

If sailors loved swimming they wouldn't be sailors

Heck, depending on the time and place it was often more unusual if a sailor did know how to swim.

[Bill the barbarian]

9 minutes ago, scott-martin said:

but this is the distinction I like best.As scrutiny of the lozenge expands, we'll discover a lot of "water" populations with original triolini descent (usually maternal, a nymph replacing an earth ancestress) but boating is not necessarily part of that birthright. If anything, as the first person in historical times to circumnavigate Iceland by kayak told me once, the whole point of boats is to avoid contact with water. If sailors loved swimming they wouldn't be sailors, and if the air wanted to cross water he would fly. 

Oh, but you have a wonderful and clever mind and I love how it gets at the guts of Gloranthan issues!

Edited August 29, 2020 by Bill the barbarian

[Joerg]

1 minute ago, Leingod said:

Heck, depending on the time and place it was often more unusual if a sailor did know how to swim.

Pelaskites usually seem to be able to move through the waters. Esrolian rowers and possibly marines might be less inclined to do so.

Let me put it this way - if you cannot swim anyway, there is a lot less reason to go without much armor.

[Akhôrahil]

2 hours ago, Bill the barbarian said:

An Orlanthi can be a LM , lest one cannot be an Orlanthi and be Lhankor Mhyan this statement must be false.

Rules-As-Written, being a Lhankor Mhy sorcerer would disqualify you from being an Initiate of Orlanth (although it would presumably be fine if you somehow didn't pick up the sorcery).

It would be very unsurprising if the Cults book said that this was an okay exception though and that LM sorcery is fine - it's not their bad sorcery, that eats your soul.

EDIT: Wait, the rule-book really doesn't restrict you from being a shaman or a sorcerer!? Huh, I wonder if that's just an oversight. In the absence of rules, go wild with the sorcery and/or shamanism! 🙂

It's weird that it says that many cults forbid it, and then in fact no cult is listed as actually doing that...

Edited August 29, 2020 by Akhôrahil

[Rodney Dangerduck]

9 hours ago, metcalph said:

Everybody sails the waves with a little fear and a great deal of respect.  

"The Sea is so wide and my boat is so small" would be part of any sailing rituals on Glorantha (and Brittany).

[soltakss]

9 hours ago, Joerg said:

10 hours ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

A culture that can predict and control the wind would make a superb naval power, even with limited experience at sea.  Your hypothesis strikes me as bizarre.

A culture whose magic is bent to fight the waves adversarially at every step needs a lot of restraint to make it a tame provider of propulsion.

Orlanthi magic is emulating their god, and their god is the one who blew the seas out of the lands they claimed in the Great Flood. And the seas also conspired to create their most deadly waves to crash into the holdings of this deity.

In my Glorantha, I have the cult of Orlanth Aquarius, the God of the Wind on the Waves. This basically holds the myths of the Storm Tribe on the waters, the fathering of the Cetoi Merfolk, Brastalos joining with Magasta and so on. It teaches wind control magic, as well as skills to help navigate on the seas and oceans. Originally, it started just to annoy one of our Players who complained that "Orlanth has a cult for everything" but then I realised more and more how much it made sense.

 

5 hours ago, Jeff said:

Given that it is a song written by Lou Reed, I don't really think it should count at all. But it captures the sense of dread Gloranthans have of the ocean. Again, other than the Waertagi and the East Islanders, there really aren't any established nautical cultures. Traveling on the open seas is a new thing in Glorantha and folk my age or older can remember when the seas were Closed to all.

Folk songs have to start somewhere. It will probably still be sung in a couple of hundred years by sailors and folk singers.

 

[Bill the barbarian]

16 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

Rules-As-Written, being a Lhankor Mhy sorcerer would disqualify you from being an Initiate of Orlanth (although it would presumably be fine if you somehow didn't pick up the sorcery).

 

Why does an Orlanthi have to be an intimate of Orlanth, I am of the opinion a good Orlanthicould easily be in the laity, Also could not a Kolating shaman be a good Orlanthi? Still not in agreement.

NOW RAW just reread pages 300-302 in the RQ RiG as well as page 76 and 77 and oddly enough I am not seeing any restrictions...Bizarre, I was going to say I not see restriction for initiates beyond the norm but really I can see any at all (beyond the norm). Can you give a citation for this, please.

 

9 minutes ago, soltakss said:

In my Glorantha, I have the cult of Orlanth Aquarius,

Oh my! Does your Glorantha vary.

 

Cheers

Edited August 29, 2020 by Bill the barbarian