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Why I don't think of Orlanthi as a naval culture


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Just now, Bill the barbarian said:

NOW RAW just reread pages 300-302 in the RQ RiG as well as page 76 and 77 and oddly enough I am not seeing any restrictions...Bizarre, I was going to say I not see restriction for initiates beyond the norm but really I can see any at all (beyond the norm). Can you give a citation for this, please.

Check my post, I edited in the same surprise!

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Some Orlanthi (those around the Mirrorsea, many Wolf Pirates, etc.) use ships. Others (Sartarites, Tarshites, Ralians, Talastari, etc.) don't. Ships are a pretty  a new thing in the Third Age, as the

The definition of a sorcerer is someone who knows sorcerous Runes or Techniques. Open Seas can be cast without knowing any. Most initiates of Dormal know just this one spell and are not sorcerers.

As I said over on a thread about the Port of Nochet: The Holy Country is a collection of littoral cultures (per Colin McEvedy*) co-existing around a vast, calm, and easily-traversed bay. Despit

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16 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

Rules-As-Written, being a Lhankor Mhy sorcerer would disqualify you from being an Initiate of Orlanth (although it would presumably be fine if you somehow didn't pick up the sorcery).

It would be very unsurprising if the Cults book said that this was an okay exception though and that LM sorcery is fine - it's not their bad sorcery, that eats your soul.

EDIT: Wait, the rule-book really doesn't restrict you from being a shaman or a sorcerer!? Huh, I wonder if that's just an oversight. In the absence of rules, go wild with the sorcery and/or shamanism! 🙂

It's weird that it says that many cults forbid it, and then in fact no cult is listed as actually doing that...

Actually if you have learned sorcerous techniques EVEN AS AN INITIATE OF LHANKOR MHY, you are going to have trouble initiating into other cults. You still get them as Associated Deities but you are just too damn logically oriented to get the mysteries.

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6 minutes ago, Jeff said:

Actually if you have learned sorcerous techniques EVEN AS AN INITIATE OF LHANKOR MHY, you are going to have trouble initiating into other cults. You still get them as Associated Deities but you are just too damn logically oriented to get the mysteries.

Have not read the sorcery rules yet, still making sure I have all the other rules figured, kind of like when I was playing RQ 2 and 3... Easy first and then into the weeds.. Thanks for the assist Jeff! 

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3 minutes ago, Jeff said:

Actually if you have learned sorcerous techniques EVEN AS AN INITIATE OF LHANKOR MHY, you are going to have trouble initiating into other cults. You still get them as Associated Deities but you are just too damn logically oriented to get the mysteries.

This is great and probably worth a FAQ. It's not them. It's you. The best initiators can cheerfully give it their best shot but the rite just won't take.

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12 minutes ago, Jeff said:

Actually if you have learned sorcerous techniques EVEN AS AN INITIATE OF LHANKOR MHY, you are going to have trouble initiating into other cults. You still get them as Associated Deities but you are just too damn logically oriented to get the mysteries.

Cool, so it’s not that other cults think you’re a bad person, it’s that you have messed up your own theistic senses by pursuing sorcery?

Will this get rules coverage? Would it be a hindrance even for Illuminates, or do they overcome it?

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Just now, Akhôrahil said:

Cool, so it’s not that other cults think you’re a bad person, it’s that you have messed up your own theistic senses by pursuing sorcery?

Yes. Sorcery is hyper-rational, hyper-logical. Imagine it as a grand materialist memory palace. It is incompatible with some of the more ecstatic cult secrets which are irrational by nature. It is also the reason spirit magic screws up your ability to manipulate sorcery.

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4 minutes ago, Jeff said:

Yes. Sorcery is hyper-rational, hyper-logical. Imagine it as a grand materialist memory palace. It is incompatible with some of the more ecstatic cult secrets which are irrational by nature. It is also the reason spirit magic screws up your ability to manipulate sorcery.

So this would be an issue even for Illuminated Sorcerers? Sure, you don’t get hit with agents of reprisal, but if your mindset is all wrong...?

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10 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

So this would be an issue even for Illuminated Sorcerers? Sure, you don’t get hit with agents of reprisal, but if your mindset is all wrong...?

Its not a Spirit of Reprisal issue, any more than the incongruity between sorcery and spirit magic is.

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4 minutes ago, Jeff said:

Its not a Spirit of Reprisal issue, any more than the incongruity between sorcery and spirit magic is.

But many cults still forbid sorcerers and shamans entry as per the rulebook text (even if it's incongruous no cult actually lists it)? Or will that change?

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41 minutes ago, Jeff said:

That being said, I am not sure that knowledge of sorcery is block for Orlanth. In fact, I am pretty sure it is not.

Considering the number of henotheistic Orlanthi I'd expect sorcery would play just fine with him.

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6 hours ago, Richard S. said:

Considering the number of henotheistic Orlanthi I'd expect sorcery would play just fine with him.

Like the Ingareens, the neighboring Esvularing tribe were once sorcerous atheists too, actively supporting the construction of the Machine God Zistor. But for them, the spectacular fall of the Clanking City led to a henotheistic revelation. Rather than take on the Brithini way, the Esvularings embraced the Aeolian variation of Malkionism, which holds that the Orlanthi gods are but emanations of the Invisible God.

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11 minutes ago, MOB said:

the neighboring Esvularing tribe were once sorcerous atheists too, actively supporting the construction of the Machine God Zistor. But for them, the spectacular fall of the Clanking City led to a henotheistic revelation. Rather than take on the Brithini way, the Esvularings embraced the Aeolian variation of Malkionism, which holds that the Orlanthi gods are but emanations of the Invisible God.

And not only neighboring, but in the lands around Durengard (the Gardufar plateau), the Esvularings and the Heortlings have increasingly intermingled through the reign of Belintar.  Nobles worshiping Orlanth and Ernalda, aided by sorcerous wizards utilizing their magic to aid the nobles and their communities, and common folk invoking the varied gods that follow Orlanth and Ernalda.

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1 hour ago, jajagappa said:

And not only neighboring, but in the lands around Durengard (the Gardufar plateau), the Esvularings and the Heortlings have increasingly intermingled through the reign of Belintar.  Nobles worshiping Orlanth and Ernalda, aided by sorcerous wizards utilizing their magic to aid the nobles and their communities, and common folk invoking the varied gods that follow Orlanth and Ernalda.

Not to mention the Chariot of Lightning Cult in Ralios, the Malkioni-ruled Orlanthi tribes and kingdoms in Fronela, and iirc the Henotheists in Old Carmania(?). 

 

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17 minutes ago, David Scott said:

Can you put some references in please.

RQG, p. 275: "In many cults, initiates may not become shamans or sorcerers."

I'm assuming that this also means that shamans and sorcerers aren't welcome as initiates.

No cult actually forbids sorcerers in the cult description.

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17 hours ago, Brootse said:

In my last campaign that was naval and pirate themed I used mostly trade galleys as merchant ships, but also larger roundships that depend mostly on sails. How canonical are they?

Check out "The Oceans" chapter of the Guide, especially the Ships of Glorantha section (p.466-67, Vol 2). The Holy Country's navy is famed for its triremes, but since the Opening their most common merchant ship is a flat-bottomed tub with square sails. With those sailors from Nochet go everywhere, even as far as Garguna.

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On 8/29/2020 at 1:42 AM, jajagappa said:

I don't know that it's necessarily odd that Dormal comes from Nochet.  Belintar was likely manipulating lineage over several generations.  Also there's nothing contradictory between Dormal being noble and a LM sage - many Esrolian noble males join Issaries or LM, as those make good candidates to marry into other noble clans.

I considered it odd as Esrolia is a very Earth Rune place, and for no other reason.  IDK about you, but the notion of an Earth Rune society producing the renaissance of seacraft seems a little incongruous.  On the other hand, the very incongruity of it may be why Dormal was able to sidestep the Closing; the gods never considered the possibility that anyone from an Earth Rune society would suddenly develop a fascination with the Oceans.   As to what the loophole was, that is a question for another forum topic, and I think I will post it.

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6 minutes ago, Darius West said:

I considered it odd as Esrolia is a very Earth Rune place, and for no other reason.  IDK about you, but the notion of an Earth Rune society producing the renaissance of seacraft seems a little incongruous.  On the other hand, the very incongruity of it may be why Dormal was able to sidestep the Closing; the gods never considered the possibility that anyone from an Earth Rune society would suddenly develop a fascination with the Oceans.   As to what the loophole was, that is a question for another forum topic, and I think I will post it.

This is a decidedly un-Gloranthan answer, but it might just be numerical plausibility. A LOT of people live in Esrolia. 
(Also Dormal's personal rune affinity might've been Sea, but I get that your point was more on a cultural level, and I agree that it's one of those curveballs Glorantha has).

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6 minutes ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

This is a decidedly un-Gloranthan answer, but it might just be numerical plausibility. A LOT of people live in Esrolia. 
(Also Dormal's personal rune affinity might've been Sea, but I get that your point was more on a cultural level, and I agree that it's one of those curveballs Glorantha has).

Heh, so if you roll the dice enough times Statistics will produce the impossible.  That's in line with sorcerous thinking.  I wonder if Zzabur did the calculations and figured out how long it would take?  Still, I find it interesting that the God Learners couldn't crack the problem if one lone Esrolian nobleman could do so centuries later with incomplete records and a bit of rule of thumb, a slate, and a mosaic.  Open Seas is, after all, a sorcery spell.

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1 minute ago, Darius West said:

Heh, so if you roll the dice enough times Statistics will produce the impossible.  That's in line with sorcerous thinking.  I wonder if Zzabur did the calculations and figured out how long it would take?  Still, I find it interesting that the God Learners couldn't crack the problem if one lone Esrolian nobleman could do so centuries later with incomplete records and a bit of rule of thumb, a slate, and a mosaic.  Open Seas is, after all, a sorcery spell.

Nochet City holds arguably the world's greatest library. They're not all farmers and Earth Mothers, for crying out loud: it's the biggest centre of Theyalan Civilisation you'll ever see.

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23 hours ago, MOB said:

As stated earlier in the thread:

The Mirrorsea, also known as Choralinthor Sea, has been renowned since legendary times for its tranquility. It is broad, relatively shallow (10-30 meters), well-lit and warm, abundant with marine life. The boats that ply the Mirrorsea are generally flat-bottomed and powered by oars, for the air above the Mirrorsea is remarkably stable too, quite unsuitable for sail. Though the barge captains may bemoan the necessity and expense of oarsmen, they are also grateful that only in the Storm season, when the Orlanth winds whip down from the Stormwalk mountains and churn the waves, is the Mirrorsea Bay hazardous to boat travel. For the rest of the year they may ply it in safety.

The image of the Choralinthor Bay in the Guide p656 ("Sea Season in Esrolia"), with the Shadow Plateau and the port of Nochet visible with some sort of Farsee effect enlarging details, shows the majority of the vessels plying the bay sporting white sails. (Which probably means that the bleaching of canvas is quite an industry somewhere in coastal Kethaela, and that old Trollkin urine thread might rear its ugly head again...)

 

23 hours ago, Bill the barbarian said:

Reasonably sure I said Orlanthi Captain not a  a soul-less sorcerer.. I am not sure they are one and the same.The captain of a vessel does not a) have to be Dormali, (though the more he has in his crew, the better chance he will not be thought too odd), and b) that a Dormali has to be a sorcerer, I believe I noted one could be a soul-full shaman or c) an Orlanthi even has to worship Orlanth. or d) that an Orlanthi can not be a soul-less sorcerer. An Orlanthi can be a LM , lest one cannot be an Orlanthi and be Lhankor Mhyan this statement must be false.

It is possible to have the role of the opener being fulfilled by someone else than the captain.

There is a version of the Open Seas ritual that doesn't require the caster to have mastered any (sorcerous) runes, which is the one used by most crews. Trained sorcerers willing to risk their lives on sea voyages aren't that common.

One can be a Storm Tribe and/or Lightbringer worshiper and a sorcerer, but one cannot be initiated to Orlanth and use sorcery at the same time under the current canon.

I do believe that an Orlanthi has to worship Orlanth, but not necessarily as an initiate. You can be a lay worshiper of Orlanth (in good standing) or an associate and know sorcery. Orlanth does give associated magic to Lhankor Mhy, and I don't think that LMs who know sorcery are exempt from learning those. Same with Chalana Arroyans who know sorcery.

I do believe that you can be a Lightbringer and not an Orlanthi.

 

 

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On 8/29/2020 at 7:06 PM, Jeff said:

Yes. Sorcery is hyper-rational, hyper-logical. Imagine it as a grand materialist memory palace. It is incompatible with some of the more ecstatic cult secrets which are irrational by nature. It is also the reason spirit magic screws up your ability to manipulate sorcery.

 

On 8/29/2020 at 7:09 PM, Jeff said:

That being said, I am not sure that knowledge of sorcery is block for Orlanth. In fact, I am pretty sure it is not.

It is a great point

May next sorcery rules will explore this !

For example, knowing sorcery may imply you cannot use full runic magic like :

  • extension not available,
  • you lose definitly your pow when you use a rune spell (as initiate in previous versions)
  • you cannot gain pow when you worship

Of course it means that being illuminate will not change this issue, that is not a belief, that is the logic

Of course eurmal is different as logic and madness are not incompatibile

Of course it means a sorcerer can be initiate of Orlanth, not for the power granted, but just because he believes in him, follows his values and wants to be member of the community

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