Babeester Gor and celibacy

[d(sqrt(-1))]

Maybe they only take one hand and one wang from each enemy?

[Ian Absentia]

14 minutes ago, d(sqrt(-1)) said:

Maybe they only take one hand and one wang from each enemy?

Mmm...I'm still seeing roughly a 6-to-20 ratio of hands to wangs.  Assuming the skirt of hands continues around the back where we can't see, let's make that 10/20.  That's still twice as many wangs as one might expect.  And presumably some of the hands might originate with women, which should skew the ratio back toward hands again.

What I'm trying to say is, that appears to be a lot of wangs and a lot of wasted hands.  My thought is, to conserve space (there's only so many hands one can fit on a skirt, depending on the length and functionality) yet still provide appropriate representation, one might simply trim the fingers and use them as accent pieces.  Thus the necklace.  Of course, with ten fingers per foe (assuming a human standard), at that point one could expand into an entire stunning ensemble to complement the skirt.

!i!

[rykemasters]

I'm glad we can all agree on an average of one wang per slain foe, at least. Well, that would be per slain male foe, assuming no gender complications, so really, I suppose we can't agree on anything.

Though, seeing as, unless I'm mistaken, that's a depiction of Babs herself, I don't think she's necessarily beholden to a reasonable number of... implements, or foes slain. Either way, I'm not sure fashion sense is a big reason for initiation into the cult.

[Ian Absentia]

4 minutes ago, rykemasters said:

Though, seeing as, unless I'm mistaken, that's a depiction of Babs herself...

Oh!  Well, sky's the limit, then.  Gather ye rosebuds while ye may!

!i!

[g33k]

6 hours ago, rykemasters said:

... Though, seeing as, unless I'm mistaken, that's a depiction of Babs herself ...

Maybe a heroine heroforming Babs via spell/etc ?

I mean... Babs, along with the other gods, doesn't actually manifest in the real world (because of the Compromise)... maybe this isn't the Real World?  Full-on heroquest/Otherworld event?

[David Scott]

3 hours ago, g33k said:

Maybe a heroine heroforming Babs via spell/etc ?

It's from the adventure in HQG. It's outside the House of the Dead in the underworld. This the part in the heroquest where the adventurers need to pass Babeester Gor to retrieve Hara Orane (“Beloved Orane”), a local Earth goddess. Hara Orane is pictured behind Babeester Gor, the other goddess, Ty Kora Tek is just out of picture by the goddess.

Quote

If the heroes fail in their effort to get past Babeester Gor, the Avenging Daughter demands that the heroes must offer her a sacrifice: a male hero must give her his organ of masculinity to join her collection of grisly trophies.

I'm planning on using this adventure soon, setting it in Apple Lane.

[soltakss]

12 hours ago, Ian Absentia said:

Hunh.  You'd think the hands-to-wangs ratio would be higher.  You know, like, closer to 2-to-1.  As such, I'd assumed those were fingers around her neck, apologist that I am.

I was thinking that people could use fingers if they were squeamish.

If you like penis-necklaces, check out Norsemen on Netflix.

[Lordabdul]

On 9/5/2020 at 3:21 AM, Arcadiagt5 said:

I have to admit that I'm still seeing a disconnect between “Babeester Gor are raving fanatic vengeance hounds all the time” and “Babeester Gor are the standing, and permanent, guard units for all Earth temples & protectors of the Earth priestesses”. 

On 9/8/2020 at 3:13 AM, PhilHibbs said:

I can see how someone might not click just how awful BG is from the RQG entry. "Avenging daughter, sounds cool, I'll play one of those!" *Reads a bit more* "Errr... maybe this isn't for me after all..."

On 9/6/2020 at 10:49 AM, g33k said:

However, I found Jeff's entry from the Prosopedia to be far too one-sidedly bloodthirsty & berserk... I still recall (not so very long ago) when a relatively-new member of this board was driven off (dunno if they left RQ entirely, or just BRPC) by how one-sidedly bloody/berzerk the B.Gor portrayal was (his wife, IIRC, wanted to play a B.Gori, but needed some support & detail, and he came here in part to find that).

Unless I'm misunderstanding something, it seems to me you're mixing up how Babs herself is pictured, and how Bab-Gorites are pictured. Babs is pictured as a raging lunatic with penises for a collar. Her cultists, however, are not described at all, either in RQG or in Jeff's posted prosopaedia. And that's good: it just says what they do, which is guard Earth temples and hunt down people that wronged these temples. It's up to the player to come up with a particular character's way to follow their cult's traditions and missions. There will be as much variety between Bab-Gorites as there will be between any other group of unique individuals. There's no need to take a two paragraph write-up to the absolute letter and consider all members of that group as all being the same (especially when said paragraphs don't even describe these people anyway).

On 9/5/2020 at 5:50 AM, Roko Joko said:

Yeah, it's a little weird.  Your job as a temple guard is to prevent anything from needing to be avenged in the first place, not wait until it happens and then act.

There will be multiple specialties within any given cult. For instance, you've got the Lankhor Mhy sages that are all about staying indoors and classifying dusty books, while others are Indiana Jones type adventurers who go look for long lost artifacts in caves full of Chaos monsters. Once upon a time this would have been handled by several sub-cults, which I find incredibly annoying, almost to the point of being offensive. Nowadays, we can just say that there's diversity in any cult, guild, or other group. So yes, some are guards, some are hitwomen, and some are whirlwinds of blood and severed penises.

Edited September 11, 2020 by lordabdul

[Sir_Godspeed]

On 9/8/2020 at 10:39 PM, Ian Absentia said:

Hunh.  You'd think the hands-to-wangs ratio would be higher.  You know, like, closer to 2-to-1.  As such, I'd assumed those were fingers around her neck, apologist that I am.

!i!

I thought they were TEETH. O.O

[David Scott]

10 hours ago, lordabdul said:

Babs is pictured as a raging lunatic with penises for a collar. Her cultists, however, are not described at all, either in RQG or in Jeff's posted prosopaedia.

Fortunately we have a large body of art to look through!

Sartar companion preview: https://wellofdaliath.chaosium.com/home/catalogue/websites/moondesign-com/jeffs-old-blogs/sartar-companion-preview/ has Theyvora the Axe by Jan Pospisil (or Sartar Companion page 253)

Quote

 

An Axe Sister originally hailing from the Malani tribe ...  When Grazer thieves stole an image of the grain goddess, Theyvora tracked them across Dragon Pass and murdered them and their families.Theyvora is a legendary axe warrior, always carrying four axes equally suited for melee and for throwing. In times of war, she carries a great copper shield that she took from the Other Side...

 

 

 

[Sir_Godspeed]

"Not just the Grazer men, but the Grazer women and children too!" 😭

[Lordabdul]

4 hours ago, David Scott said:

Theyvora the Axe by Jan Pospisil

Yeah I love that illustration... the messy hair and bare feet, the weird looking axe (what kind of axe is that by the way?), the hanging severed hands that are probably not practical at all but definitely make some impression... it really says "don't fuck with me, don't even look at me". I don't think I want to know what's that bundle of hairy stuff hooked to the axe head...

(still, my point is that this kind of maniac is just one type of Axe Maiden... players should be able to come up with other takes on it)

Edited September 11, 2020 by lordabdul

[d(sqrt(-1))]

I think the axe doubles up as a bottle opener

[Loïc]

4 hours ago, David Scott said:

Fortunately we have a large body of art to look through!

Sartar companion preview: https://wellofdaliath.chaosium.com/home/catalogue/websites/moondesign-com/jeffs-old-blogs/sartar-companion-preview/ has Theyvora the Axe by Jan Pospisil (or Sartar Companion page 253)

Didn't know this one was in Sartar Companion (don't own it, unfortunately...). This illustration is also in Eleven Lights, where it figures... Babeester Gor herself!!! Welcome in a romantic heroquest....

[Akhôrahil]

5 hours ago, lordabdul said:

(what kind of axe is that by the way?)

A typically impractical and unrealistic fantasy one. Hardly a rarity.

Edited September 11, 2020 by Akhôrahil

[Rob Darvall]

11 hours ago, lordabdul said:

(still, my point is that this kind of maniac is just one type of Axe Maiden... players should be able to come up with other takes on it)

Or this can be ALL axe maidens, just not all (or even most) of the time.

This look is reserved for those moments when there's an urgent need to increase the "wang to hand ratio" (thank you Ian).

Just the idea that any Axe Maiden CAN look like this if she chooses is a factor in preventing the need for that choice. And it means they get the chair they want at Lilina's.

[Borygon]

Babs initiate will have death rune high enough to be barren either way, and the only people interested in such monstrosities are tricksters. And its not like any cult rules will prevent tricksters.

Edit, also for me Babsists are taking on the role of archetypical women scorned, be it in cold blood or in hot rage, avenging wrongs done to you and then making sure nobody else can repeat that which created you (or die in a blaze of glory after burning down in a supernova of anger.) Pretty much a female only version of Punisher.

On another hand Vingans to me are a mother bear of sorts except that instead of protecting fanatically their children they protect your party (or clan/city/community).

A fun idea I had that I will never use because I am bound by fate to only run one-shots is a ex-sexslave brothel mistress that is devoted to Babeester Gor and is in the business to obliterate the opposition, one assasination at a time, and make sure girls are treated well.

 

Edited September 12, 2020 by Borygon
no reason

[Dragon]

On 9/8/2020 at 4:03 PM, rykemasters said:

I'm glad we can all agree on an average of one wang per slain foe, at least. Well, that would be per slain male foe, assuming no gender complications...

My players did encounter a male Thed shaman who had acquired the Chaotic feature of additional penises. Had 4 total, of different sizes and locations. 

[Grassy_Gnoll]

On 9/3/2020 at 1:05 AM, rykemasters said:

I've had the RQG books almost since release, but an opportunity to actually play hasn't really cropped up until recently, so I'm currently making some sample characters and toying around with the rules in anticipation of actually introducing some friends to the game. It came up while making a Babeester Gor worshipper that the only listed requirement for initiating to her in the RQG rules is to be a woman, and there are no additional requirements (aside from the usual relevant cult skills) to advance to Rune Lord status. I'm not exactly a longtime fan of Glorantha, but in my few years keeping apprised of the lore, I'd gotten the definite impression that Babeester initiates (or at least certainly priestesses) are celibate and probably have some extra ritual requirements or taboos regarding relationships with men, childbearing, or the lack thereof, for example. Maran worshippers have to be unmarried and celibate to advance beyond initiate level, but no such thing for Babeester, unless I'm missing something.

I'm aware that the cult writeups in the core book are fairly minimal and probably also meant to avoid burdening a new player with all the possible variations and complexities of Gloranthan cults, and I'm sure GaGoG is going to contain plenty of more detailed info, but I'm wondering what everyone else's take is regarding this?

Since I anticipate Babeester is a likely cult pick for a warrior character, I'm thinking of basically houseruling it into requiring at least non-marriage, if not celibacy, although of course a player is free to have a backstory and/or Passions that invite conflict with that requirement. At the same time, not having a celibacy requirement is interesting, as I imagine any man in a relationship with a Babeester Gori must have a peculiar reputation with both men and women. And of course, permitting physical and romantic relationships for Babeester Gori does raise the subject of relationships between women (including people ritually considered as such).

Marriage requires oaths that could come into conflict with oaths made to the cult.  Shagging around for fun though....

[Shiningbrow]

On 9/4/2020 at 5:51 PM, French Desperate WindChild said:

yes that a big difference between you and me : I don't care if rules don't answer all questions,

here we are in a roleplay time. If a table don't care about that (I choose babs because I want the axe trance spell , and let me play as I want) and another one care a lot (I choose babs because i want to play a so "bad" woman) , both are fine. Well I will have pleasure in the second one, but another would prefer the first one.

But in both cases.. the one who wants the spell wants a strong warrior, so choose a fighter occupation

the second who want to "fit" with the concept of babs, will also choose a fighter occupation

so the rule will just say "hey choose a fighter occupation !" that just adding words without big impact (except more expensive and more lines for the reader)

And what about other occupation : a baabs devotee could be interesting to smith weapons (let's think about a new method to punish the target), to spy (let's train to infiltrate a fortress if we need to destroy one in the future), to hunt in the wild (let's train to track if we need to explode the target trying to hide in woods) etc..

I think here that it is more a gm decision than a rule point. If you have a role who clearly forbid something, and you want to follow all rules, a very good background / explanation from a player should be rejected. That would be sad.

 

My 2c worth...

I have a problem with this type of mentality (and the general portrayal of BGs anyway).

Firstly, directly in reference to the above - generally, a person will feel a personal connection with the deity (and it's ideals) when they choose what cult to go into - not a more ephemeral sense of aligning with some principles. That is, one joins Barntar because one works the earth, not because of the general, well though out principle of farming. One joins Lhankor Mhy because of their involvement in the collection (and use) of knowledge - not because they have considered it a good idea for a society to have.

Similarly, one doesn't join Babeester Gor because they think that it's a role that a society needs. They do so because of personal experiences have lead them to that path (there will be exceptions... but even female mercenaries are unlikely to simply join BG purely because it's a Death cult).

Given this, and given that our adventurers are starting at around 22 years old, with a few years of initiation (and RPs and spirit magic) under their belts, I would think it unlikely that there would be many BGs who are actually quite young who have never personally had a reason to join - either personally been the victim of rape or other significant oath-breaking (or temple desecration), or some close person has been. One chooses to join BG to hunt down kinslayers, mostly because one's kin has been slayed by kin.

And, while certainly possible to have happened within the first 16-18 years of life, and thus going on to join the warrior occupation, I think it's much more likely that a woman would have been a potter, weaver, farmer, etc. before joining. It may have been that a local shrine was desecrated that a woman has felt the need to join BG to ensure all Earth shrines are protected. She may have been married to an adulterer, and feels spurned. She may be a mother (or sister) to a brother (or sister, or uncle, aunt, etc etc) who was killed under the "peace" of parley (such as between clans).

None of the above should in any way suggest that a Babs Gori should become celibate, nor to want to have kids. Nor that they need to be constantly psychopathically homicidal. (constantly suspicious ot the point of being paranoid - sure!) But it'd suggest that they're just as likely to have close, loving relationships with those they know and trust - their near and dear.

Vinga, OTOH, I see as the girl who wants to get out and be a warrior - a real life-long (at that stage of her life) devotee. For that matter, if a girl's family is massacred in a raid or war, I'd suggest that Vinga be the goddess of choice to follow. Babs is about the protection of the Earth, killing kin-slayers and oath breakers and rapists... not just general warfare and its consequences. So, such a background (family killed in war/raids) doesn't fit in my mind for a BG - the ideals aren't aligned.

 

So, going back to my original point.... having occupations other than Warrior actually makes far more sense for a BGori.

[Shiningbrow]

On 9/9/2020 at 4:39 AM, Ian Absentia said:

Hunh.  You'd think the hands-to-wangs ratio would be higher.  You know, like, closer to 2-to-1.  As such, I'd assumed those were fingers around her neck, apologist that I am.

!i!

Totally! It doesn't make sense to me!

"You raped someone - I'm going to take your dick"... fine! (Although, not... as per below)

"You killed your second cousin by marriage - I'm going to take your dick"... odd.

"You didn't fulfil your oath to kill the next troll you saw - I'm going to take your dick"... very odd!

 

As for the rape - in Orlanthi culture, rape is supposed to be seen as a Chaotic act, and thus would be extremely rare*. How it's seen in other cultures - don't know. However, breaking an oath (eg, marriage oath. to tell the truth, etc) should be seen as bad - but not Chaotic, and thus there should be far more those things happening in Orlanthi society... and, not just by men! Kinslaying we would generally expect to be male dominated (as they make up the majority of warriors who go a-slaying in the world... and would accidentally (or on purpose) kill their kin (especially with the way tribal and clan marriages are often made - which would also be an oath-breakage). However, I can see a wife killing a husband too.

(and, of course, women can rape as well... They can also be just as likely to desecrate and loot an Earth temple too...)

Thus, that hand to penis ratio is probably very under-statted. Unless Babs is extremely biased in her selection of who to kill...

 

(* I should have noted that in my previous post... given that most/all Earth temples have BG guardians, and there are a LOT of Earth temples, that would surmise a LOT of reasons for women to join BG....  I'd suggest that rape is the least likely in Orlanth society, and kin-slaying (distant relatives) and oath-breaking being far more common).

[Leingod]

Maybe this is just me, but the sheer number of BG axe maidens - especially in Esrolia, where they can field entire battalions of them - proportional to what a typical young woman would need to go through to decide to join the cult of her own volition, suggests to me that the Earth temples aren't totally reliant on that happening in the numbers they need to supply their demand.

That is, I would be willing to bet that Earth temples that feel the need for a lot of BG worshipers to protect the temple its interests will raise some children - orphans, foundlings, some stickpicker's child whose kin don't have to means to care for them, etc. - with the specific goal of trying to lead them toward choosing the cult of Babeester Gor as they grow up. Obviously, if they don't "click" with it then there's no use forcing it, but if you get a kid young enough and are in complete control of their education, you can probably get more hits than misses, especially as you get more experienced in knowing what to look for in a promising candidate as they grow up.

But maybe I'm just getting conspiratorial with it.

[jajagappa]

6 hours ago, Leingod said:

That is, I would be willing to bet that Earth temples that feel the need for a lot of BG worshipers to protect the temple its interests will raise some children - orphans, foundlings, some stickpicker's child whose kin don't have to means to care for them, etc. - with the specific goal of trying to lead them toward choosing the cult of Babeester Gor as they grow up.

I believe this is a common approach to become BG.  They are protecting Earth's children, and at the same time raising them to become subsequent defenders of the Earth.

[Akhôrahil]

6 hours ago, Leingod said:

you can probably get more hits than misses

The misses wouldn’t be a waste either - you can use other (often lower level) functionaries as well at the temple.

[Ladygolem]

I'm sorry, this whole "necklace of severed penises" seems absurd, as the illustration very clearly shows a necklace of fingers. You can even compare them to the fingers on the severed hands right below! They're completely the wrong size and shape to be dicks. You really think they'd get away with publishing a book with a necklace of severed cocks  on the cover? C'mon.