Stall speed for a Hippogriff?

[Ian Absentia]

On 9/15/2020 at 8:05 AM, David Scott said:

The best evidence I can offer is from the Prisoner of Azkaban:

I'm unfamiliar with this "Prisoner of Azkaban".  Could you explain the context of this reference at length?

!i!

[soltakss]

On 9/17/2020 at 12:45 AM, Rodney Dangerduck said:

On 9/16/2020 at 10:50 PM, g33k said:

Physics explicitly doesn't work in Glorantha

The "Falling Damage" table on page 156 proves this wrong. 

In the real world, you reach terminal velocity after a certain amount of falling. When you reach terminal velocity, the damage taken by falling should no longer increase, as your velocity and hence momentum does not change.

So, the Falling Damage Table falls down if you fall for over that distance.

 

[soltakss]

13 hours ago, Ian Absentia said:

I'm unfamiliar with this "Prisoner of Azkaban". 

It is a Harry Potter book.

13 hours ago, Ian Absentia said:

Could you explain the context of this reference at length?

A Hippogriff helps Harry by flying as explained.

If you watch the film, you can see how it flies.

[Ian Absentia]

5 hours ago, soltakss said:

It is a Harry Potter book.

[...snip...]

A Hippogriff helps Harry by flying as explained.

Go on.  I'm unaccustomed to this degree of brevity regarding this topic.

5 hours ago, soltakss said:

If you watch the film, you can see how it flies.

There are films?  Must I watch them?

!i!

[David Scott]

33 minutes ago, Ian Absentia said:

Go on.

I didn't fall for it...

[Ian Absentia]

17 minutes ago, David Scott said:

I didn't fall for it...

Thus sparing the dilemma of Newtonian Physics vs Divine Order when calculating falling damage.  Well played.

!i!

[g33k]

5 hours ago, Ian Absentia said:

Go on.  I'm unaccustomed to this degree of brevity regarding this topic.

<ahem>
Thus revealing that you ARE accustomed to this topic.

Try this link, instead...

[soltakss]

On 9/18/2020 at 2:59 PM, Ian Absentia said:

There are films?  Must I watch them?

There is a Cheers episode, a long time ago, where Sam is challenged to read a book and accepts, so he reads War and Peace. eventually, he finishes it and everyone is surprised that he managed it and wondered why he didn't just watch the film. "Oh, there's a film?" he says, "I didn't think anyone would have bothered to make one".

And yes, you must watch them. It's the Lore.

On 9/18/2020 at 3:33 PM, David Scott said:

I didn't fall for it...

I humoured him. Taking one for the team.

 

[Atgxtg]

Now that we got the stall speak worked out...anyone know how to change the spark plugs?

[soltakss]

2 minutes ago, Atgxtg said:

Now that we got the stall speak worked out...anyone know how to change the spark plugs?

Doburdan inserts his Addi* and sends a bolt of lightning through it.

 

* It's a club, for those who were wondering.

[Ian Absentia]

23 minutes ago, soltakss said:

I humoured him. Taking one for the team.

And your brevity was much appreciated.  Take another bow.

!i!

[g33k]

35 minutes ago, Ian Absentia said:

And your brevity was much appreciated.  Take another bow.

!i!

... ?

Don't think he ever played an aldryami.

Derak & Soltak & ... dunno, how many of 'em?  47?

 

[Atgxtg]

19 hours ago, soltakss said:

Doburdan inserts his Addi* and sends a bolt of lightning through it.

That's I was afraid I was just going to have to wing it.

[g33k]

On 9/15/2020 at 5:02 PM, Brian McReynolds said:

Griffins & Hippogriffs are Solar/Sky creatures, so they are naturally adept at hovering in place, just as Yelm once sat immobile in the Sky.

It's only when you introduce the Winds of the Storm Tribe, with all their disruptive tendencies that Griffins and Hippogriffs struggle to hover effectively. 

This is a nicely mythical approach to the answer.

Unsurprisingly, RW "physics" is irrelevant.

[Rodney Dangerduck]

3 hours ago, g33k said:

Unsurprisingly, RW "physics" is irrelevant.

So if the hippogriffs wings are knocked below zero HP by enemy spells or missile fire, would you rule that they "keep flying"?

[Ian Absentia]

4 hours ago, g33k said:

Unsurprisingly, RW "physics" is irrelevant.

Boo! 👉😾👈

This smells as bad as "Pavis isn't prone to urban fires because of runes." Too much "mythic" hand-waving is boring.  Save the mythological relevancy for heroquests.

!i!

Edited September 20, 2020 by Ian Absentia

[g33k]

50 minutes ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

So if the hippogriffs wings are knocked below zero HP by enemy spells or missile fire, would you rule that they "keep flying"?

Nope.  See below.

 

44 minutes ago, Ian Absentia said:

Boo! 👉😾👈

This smells as bad as "Pavis isn't prone to urban fires because of runes." Too much "mythic" hand-waving is boring.  Save the mythological relevancy for heroquests.

!i!

If there isn't a "mythological relevancy" already there, then there's nothing for the heroquestor to interact with.

 

Just sayin'.

 

( Agreed, though, that there's such a thing as too much mythic/runic handwavery ... )

But in this SPECIFIC case ...

We already have the tragic myth of King Hippogriff / Gamera -- broken by stages and losing wings & flight, claws, beak... becoming mere Horse, ridden by mere mortals... but STILL a sun/sky creature, withal!

So:  easier to hover in one spot, because so did the Sun originally?  Bravo, say I!  Why look for a parallel with RW raptors (some of whom hover & some do not) when you ALREADY have an overall weight & a wingload ratio that is clearly nonsensical/impossible from a RW physics / aerodynamics perspective?   Or Just Say No -- Hippogriffs cannot hover (or maybe only some varieties can:  the kestrel-like, kite-like ones).

But... a Sun/Sky creature gets a wing-injury that mythically echoes the ancestral mythic damage that chained Hippogriff to the earth?  Well... yeah, the regular hippogriff's gonna fall, ya do that to 'em.

 

Some winged creatures may indeed use their wings to "fly" in a physical, RW-aerodynamics manner.
Others fly via myth and magic, and they have wings as part of the magic,  because that's how physical creatures fly.

YGMV

(but I just gotta Nope on any physics suggesting that RQ dragons & hippogriphs "fly" like RW bats & birds, by flapping their wings for thrust & lift...  YRWMV, too)

[Lordabdul]

Physicians will apply real-word (-ish) physics to figure out if the hippogriff can hover or not.

Logicians and sorcerers will look at Rune affinities to figure out if the hippogriff can hover or not.

Mythologists will look at thematic links in related deities' myths to figure out of the hippogriff can hover or not.

Gloranthan scholars will search various books, fanzines, and mailing list archives to figure out if the hippogriff can hover or not.

MGFers recognize that all 4 previous people are actually the same, looking for a truth that doesn't exist because it can be made up. Instead, MGF starts with the result: is it more fun to have the hippogriff hover? Or is it more fun to make the hippogriff do a dive, swooping past, turn around the air and dive again for another attack or another attempt at picking up someone, or whatever the hippogriff is trying to do? Then, if someone asks, they can retroactively explain it with whatever source they want, be it physics, Runes, myths, precedent, or even just hand-waving ("who cares? would your character even know why hippogriffs do what they do? ask a sage next time you're in Jonstown!").

When in doubt, remember the wise words of John Landis, who asked his son how does one kill a vampire. His son started: "stake through the heart, decapitation, ..." but his dad interrupted him: "You can kill a vampire however the fuck you want, because vampires don't fucking exist!"

Edited September 21, 2020 by lordabdul

[Arcadiagt5]

3 hours ago, lordabdul said:

 

 Instead, MGF starts with the result: is it more fun to have the hippogriff hover?

As I noted earlier this is precisely the reason I have ruled that hippogriffs can hover in my games. 👍 to @lordabdul

[soltakss]

On 9/19/2020 at 9:06 PM, g33k said:

Don't think he ever played an aldryami.

I did play an Aldryami Humakti Assassin once, in Balazar, which was fun.

14 hours ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

17 hours ago, g33k said:

Unsurprisingly, RW "physics" is irrelevant.

So if the hippogriffs wings are knocked below zero HP by enemy spells or missile fire, would you rule that they "keep flying"?

Nope, that comes under "Silly", but not "Silly in a good way".

14 hours ago, Ian Absentia said:

This smells as bad as "Pavis isn't prone to urban fires because of runes." Too much "mythic" hand-waving is boring.  Save the mythological relevancy for heroquests.

If you look at real world physics, Hippogriffs cannot fly, as they are too big and heavy.

What I would say is "OK, the physics in Glorantha mean that Hippogriffs and Dragons can fly" and go with that. 

Other things come from that. If a flying creature falls, use the falling damage from the point of the start of the fall. Assume that they can hover and manoeuvre. Assume that they can't carry massive loads, unless they should be able to. So, an elephant flapping its ears and flying will be able to carry a fair amount, because it is an elephant.

[Joerg]

On 9/19/2020 at 9:05 PM, soltakss said:

And yes, you must watch them. It's the Lore.

But are they canonical?

[Rodney Dangerduck]

8 hours ago, soltakss said:

What I would say is "OK, the physics in Glorantha mean that Hippogriffs and Dragons can fly" and go with that. 

The original question was not "can they fly".  By asking about a stall speed, it implicitly assumed they could somehow fly.

The question was about their maneuverability, especially with a rider.

As for the claims that Kestrels can hover, that is generally only when wind aided.  So they have a stall speed too.

"Kestrels, however, are the only bird of prey capable of hovering. Unlike smaller hummingbirds, kestrels are incapable of beating their wings fast enough to generate enough lift to keep them aloft, so they have to face into the wind and rely on it to provide lift for them."

...

"some sources claim that kestrels can hover without any wind at all ...  Hovering without any wind is a lot harder to control..."

Source here:  http://blogs.bu.edu/bioaerial2012/2012/12/08/2655/#:~:text=Kestrels%2C however%2C are the only,to provide lift for them.

Edited September 21, 2020 by Rodney Dangerduck

[soltakss]

On 9/21/2020 at 10:50 PM, Rodney Dangerduck said:

On 9/21/2020 at 2:15 PM, soltakss said:

What I would say is "OK, the physics in Glorantha mean that Hippogriffs and Dragons can fly" and go with that. 

The original question was not "can they fly".  By asking about a stall speed, it implicitly assumed they could somehow fly.

The question was about their maneuverability, especially with a rider.

In that case, I refer you to the documentary evidence already provided, of a clip of a Hippogriff hovering.

[g33k]

5 hours ago, soltakss said:

In that case, I refer you to the documentary evidence already provided, of a clip of a Hippogriff hovering.

vid checks out.

[H3nry]

Like everyone else here, I immediately put Hippogriffs into my campaign. However I was unhappy they didn't include the raptor's most devastating attack: the stoop.

Being a geek, I went the physics route (giving it a terminal velocity) and based the stoop attack on a peregrine falcon. I also threw in some extra rolls and a limitation to make this devastating attack (it does ~500 points of damage) a bit more difficult.

Here's what I came up with:

Stoop     55%    1D6+2D6+"Falling Damage"    1/2R on SR 9

The terminal velocity of a stooping hippogriff is 90M/S, reached in 9.18S after a distance of 413.25M giving a maximum “falling” damage of 138D6. Given the climb rate of a Hippogriff is 36M/S, it takes 1 mêlée round to climb to that distance, so a stoop attack can be done every other round on strike rank 9. If the hippogriff has a rider, to successfully use the stoop attack the rider must make a successful Fly/Ride (Hippogriff) roll and the Hippogriff must make a successful Fly roll, before rolling the stoop attack roll. The damage bonus for a stoop attack with rider should add in the SIZ of the rider when calculated. Lastly, in order to avoid crashing into the ground, a stoop attack can only be used on a target of SIZ 10 or larger.