Throwing Grenade

[Lloyd Dupont]

31 minutes ago, soltakss said:

First year at senior school, aged 11, we did athletics and tried throwing a javelin. Mine went behind me. I was excused from throwing anything again and had to stick to running and jumping from then on.

So, missing by 10m is very easy.

Extra thought.. Maybe everyone has throw to some degrees, so it's why I think it's easy...

However... I will say hitting someone with a rock is much harder than throwing a grenade at least 10m away (or less) to a target, but it's the same skill!
Hence throwing a grenade, using the same throw skill, should be somewhat more effective than throwing a rock at someone! That's common sense.

Edited October 2, 2020 by Lloyd Dupont

[Atgxtg]

3 hours ago, soltakss said:

First year at senior school, aged 11, we did athletics and tried throwing a discus. Mine went behind me. I was excused from throwing anything again and had to stick to running and jumping from then on.

So, missing by 10m is very easy.

That's more of a discus thing, thanks to the wierd wind up. Grenades tend to be much more straightforward. 

 

12 hours ago, Lloyd Dupont said:

I am not talking about bullet (those are pretty small) but grenade with a big radius!.....

But the thing is, the people who miss 85% of the time in combat do much better outside of it. Most Police, FBI and other trained types hit 75% of the time on the range, but only about 25% of the time in an actual fight. So something similar is probably happening with grenades. 

Of course missing by 5m doesn't matter so much with a greande.

12 hours ago, Lloyd Dupont said:

Anyway, yeah I can imagine that hitting an inconvenient obstacle is a real possibility though! ^^

Yup. It's probably a major factor. Cover is your friend on the battlefield, and most targets probably have a rock, tree, wall, vehicle, or big dumb friend to duck behind, making the throw more challenging. 

Still, if you stick with % missed by times distance thrown, it would be pretty difficult for even an unskilled (Throw 25%) combatant to miss completely. At 20m he'd have to roll a 75 or higher (so 26% chance of a miss) and at 15m he'd have to roll at 96 or higher. That sounds pretty close to what you are looking for.

 

[Baron Wulfraed]

5 hours ago, soltakss said:

First year at senior school, aged 11, we did athletics and tried throwing a discus. Mine went behind me. I was excused from throwing anything again and had to stick to running and jumping from then on.

So, missing by 10m is very easy.

As I recall, both discus and shot-put use full body rotation techniques (spins), and discus is a bit odd to hold onto (finger tips over rim, palm flat on the "top" side). Grenade throws are closer to baseballs, allowing for overhand, sidearm, and underhand tossing. The first and last should tend to be close in azimuth but have more variation in range; I'd think sidearm would have wider spread in azimuth, less spread in range (opening hand too soon will have it roll off the fingers to the side, too late means the arm is going across the body, so likely [right hander] 90deg right to 45deg left).

[hix]

Updating my game now to have three different throw skills, should submariners be their own skill or use an underhand throw augmented by sidearm? Just kidding @Baron Wulfraed I actually found this post very interesting.

[Ian Absentia]

I think as @Kloster, @soltakss, and @Baron Wulfraed rightly point out, there's a surprising variety of "fumbles" that can be rolled for throwing an object, and if that object happens to be an explosive there's an added level of complexity and anxiety that may affect success of the throw.

If we're entertaining discussion of athletics, there's very good reason the shot, discus, and hammer circles are surrounded by cages.  I've witnessed one or two fumbles myself, fortunately to no one's harm.  Had those been explosives, though...

!i!

Edited October 2, 2020 by Ian Absentia
Yes, let's discuss the discus.

[Kloster]

2 hours ago, Atgxtg said:

Of course missing by 5m doesn't matter so much with a greande.

You are right, but throwing a hand grenade at 20 m means YOU are in range of the fragments. Which means you dont take time to aim, contrary to javelin throw or shot put (where the risk to the thrower is minimal). Which means, if you are not too stupid, you don't take time to aim and you duck to safety as soon as possible. And as I am (more properly was) able to put an arrow within 10 cm to center at 50 to 100m (depending to circumstances) and a javelin in the right quarter at more than 50 meters, I've never been able to put a grenade at( less than 15 meters of the target if I respect the safety conditions I was to ues, even if the range was below 15m. Of course, throwing one through a window and ducking works and keep you safe.

1 hour ago, Baron Wulfraed said:

As I recall, both discus and shot-put use full body rotation techniques (spins), and discus is a bit odd to hold onto (finger tips over rim, palm flat on the "top" side). Grenade throws are closer to baseballs, allowing for overhand, sidearm, and underhand tossing. The first and last should tend to be close in azimuth but have more variation in range; I'd think sidearm would have wider spread in azimuth, less spread in range (opening hand too soon will have it roll off the fingers to the side, too late means the arm is going across the body, so likely [right hander] 90deg right to 45deg left).

We were thorwing sidearm most of the time.

[olskool]

Since nobody has even brought this up, I will.  The US frag grenade weights 0.48kg and is shaped like a baseball for a reason.  I did qualify EXPERT with the hand grenade but it was a LONG TIME AGO (I served from '88 to '96).   To qualify EXPERT you had to have straight "GOs" in ALL of the grenade tests.  Those tests were;

1) Properly Identify various Hand Grenades.

2) Hit a BUNKER TARGET (1m high x 2m wide square target) from the prone position from 10 meters out.

3) Hit a TARGET BEHIND COVER from the prone position at 20m.

4) Hit a TWO-MAN FIGHTING POSITION from the standing position from 35m

5) Hit a TRENCH from the standing position from 25m.

6) Hit a VEHICLE from the kneeling position from 25m.  

A "hit" involved being 5m or closer to the designated target.  This earned you a "GO" on the US Army's "GO/NO-GO" standard for the test.  The throw has more to do with throwing a baseball and the BUNKER target actually requires you to roll over (you're prone, remember) and throw DIRECTLY at the 1m X 2m opening with a hit scored only IF it passed inside the structure.  The farthest I have ever witnessed a grenade thrown was in Basic ('88).  A kid named Causey lobbed a practice grenade 70 meters.  My longest throw (and the throw that got me my expert badge) was 50 meters at a 4-man cluster target.  I put it right in the middle of the targets.  Disclaimer... I played baseball in High School and I played Right Field.  Throwing a grenade just came natural to me.   

Edited October 2, 2020 by olskool

[Atgxtg]

1 hour ago, Kloster said:

You are right, but throwing a hand grenade at 20 m means YOU are in range of the fragments.

Oh yeah. That's why I mentioned previosuly that fragmentation greandes are reffered as defensive grenades, as they must be thrown from some sort of defensive position to avoid the fragments. 

1 hour ago, Kloster said:

Which means you dont take time to aim, contrary to javelin throw or shot put (where the risk to the thrower is minimal). Which means, if you are not too stupid, you don't take time to aim and you duck to safety as soon as possible. And as I am (more properly was) able to put an arrow within 10 cm to center at 50 to 100m (depending to circumstances) and a javelin in the right quarter at more than 50 meters, I've never been able to put a grenade at( less than 15 meters of the target if I respect the safety conditions I was to ues, even if the range was below 15m. Of course, throwing one through a window and ducking works and keep you safe.

I can buy that. Another factor worth mentioning is the "Hey that guy is trying to kill me!" aspect to all this. Historically, those using more deadly (or deadly looking.sounding) weapons tend to draw more fire. So if they enemy actually seems someone preparing grenade they will probably concentrate fire of him to prevent it, which gives the thrower even more incentive to hurry up.

1 hour ago, Kloster said:

We were thorwing sidearm most of the time.

That's pretty much the standard throw, if I recall correctly. Not as accurate but better distance.

[Baron Wulfraed]

And just to toss (no pun intended) some other numbers into this...

Assuming a sidearm (level/horizontal) throw, the grenade will be about 5ft (I don't think in metric, so sue me) above ground. That means solving for (if I haven't made any mistakes):

5 = 1/2 * 32 * T^2

5 = 16 * T^2

5 / 16 = T^2

sqroot(5 / 16) = T

The grenade will hit ground in 0.56 seconds. assuming a target 66 feet away (~20m) means

66 = 0.56 * V

66 / 0.56 = V

or 117.9 feet/sec => 7074 feet/min => 42440 feet/hour

or 80 miles an hour. A professional baseball pitcher's fast ball is around 90-100 mph. I really doubt the typical grenade tosser approaches that capability. So, that leads us to lobbing the grenade -- and that means having to split the velocity into vertical (up) and horizontal, and incorporating the starting vertical velocity into the acceleration of gravity. Left as an exercise for the student.

[Atgxtg]

22 minutes ago, olskool said:

Since nobody has even brought this up, I will. 

Thanks for the grenade range data. 

So it looks like a success in BRP should be anything within 5m (1s4+1?), a special probably within 1-2m (1d2), and a critical right on the money.

 

[Atgxtg]

3 minutes ago, Baron Wulfraed said:

And just to toss (no pun intended) some other numbers into this...

A sidearm throw isn'tt horizontal, as the thrower is either lying on his side, or leaning sideways. A typical grenade is in the air for a second or two, and that's why they have 4 second fuses. The idea was not to give the enemy enough time to grab it and throw it back - something that used to happen in the early days of WWII, when the fuses were 7 seconds.

 

 

[olskool]

I don't think you need multiple throwing skills but rather an adjustment to the difficulty level for a given type of throw.   The HARDEST type of throw would be the point pitch.  Essentially the throw of a baseball pitcher at a POINT TARGET.  These are ranged at 10m and 20m by the Army because hitting a point in space is hard.  I'd say that a DIRECT THROW should be STR in meters is Short Range (please note that I use FOUR range bands in my own game) and then you would add STR in meters and increase the Difficulty for each additional range band after SHORT.  A Direct Throw would hit a man-sized target directly.  The longer-ranged throw would be the LOB.  This throw is for range and your goal is to get it close so someone can move just a little and catch it or so it will land in close proximity to a target.  The LOB should have a Short Range of [STRx2 meters] and you would add that amount for each added Range Band (once again, I use 4 range bands in my game) while increasing the Difficulty by one level per added range band.  Keep in mind that even Little League players can throw a baseball (which is around 1/3rd the weight of a grenade) about 100 meters.  The "Extreme Precision Throw" is so hard that Green Beret Sgt. Sanderson gained legendary status when he hit those riflemen in that 4-story window from 50 METERS WITH A THROWN FRAG!   A dozen Rangers watched him do it!  I heard about it a couple of days later and I was in Kismayo on the Southern end of the COUNTRY (The Moge is in the North)!  It even made it into the movie! 

  

Edited October 2, 2020 by olskool

[Ian Absentia]

39 minutes ago, olskool said:

Keep in mind that even Little League players can throw a baseball (which is around 1/3rd the weight of a grenade) about 100 meters.    

Well, the ones who play Little League baseball, sure.  There's a reason why lots of kids turn to soccer and track & field, though.   Some people need to be discouraged from throwing grenades.

On the other hand, there's a reason why we track coaches try to recruit outfielders for javelin.  We do not, however, let them handle live ordnance.

!i!

Edited October 2, 2020 by Ian Absentia
Manic possessive.

[Atgxtg]

12 minutes ago, Ian Absentia said:

On the other hand, there's a reason why we track coaches try to recruit outfielders for javelin.  We do not, however, let them handle live ordnance.

LOL! That's a wise choice. Graduation levels could drop dramatically otherwise. 

[Baron Wulfraed]

18 hours ago, Atgxtg said:

A sidearm throw isn'tt horizontal, as the thrower is either lying on his side, or leaning sideways. A typical grenade is in the air for a second or two, and that's why they have 4 second fuses. The idea was not to give the enemy enough time to grab it and throw it back - something that used to happen in the early days of WWII, when the fuses were 7 seconds.

All of 4 seconds? So much for my mental impression of 3 second fuses...

 

[soltakss]

20 hours ago, olskool said:

A "hit" involved being 5m or closer to the designated target.  This earned you a "GO" on the US Army's "GO/NO-GO" standard for the test.  The throw has more to do with throwing a baseball and the BUNKER target actually requires you to roll over (you're prone, remember) and throw DIRECTLY at the 1m X 2m opening with a hit scored only IF it passed inside the structure.  The farthest I have ever witnessed a grenade thrown was in Basic ('88).  A kid named Causey lobbed a practice grenade 70 meters.  My longest throw (and the throw that got me my expert badge) was 50 meters at a 4-man cluster target.  I put it right in the middle of the targets.  Disclaimer... I played baseball in High School and I played Right Field.  Throwing a grenade just came natural to me.   

Which shows that Throw is a good enough skill for hand grenades, thanks for the expert opinion.

Throwing water balloons isn't quite the same, obviously.