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46 minutes ago, two_fishes said:

I'm curious about the cost of a hide of land, if PCs ever need to sell land, or wish to expand their holdings. Is this is thing that can be done?

You have to keep in mind that the PC's don't typically "own" the land, but receive it from the clan.  It's the clan (or in some cases the temple) that holds the land (a gift from Ernalda).  So, the clan chief designates one of the PC's to manage the land (perhaps making them a thane).  If the PC does well, perhaps the clan chief favors them and grants them more to manage.  Or the PC offends the clan chief, and he withdraws the land from them.  So, if the PC is managing a hide of land, and hopes to manage more, than they will perform deeds or quests that aid the clan (and the clan chief) with the expectation that they will be rewarded with more to manage.  

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1 hour ago, jajagappa said:

You have to keep in mind that the PC's don't typically "own" the land, but receive it from the clan.  It's the clan (or in some cases the temple) that holds the land (a gift from Ernalda).  So, the clan chief designates one of the PC's to manage the land (perhaps making them a thane).  If the PC does well, perhaps the clan chief favors them and grants them more to manage.  Or the PC offends the clan chief, and he withdraws the land from them.  So, if the PC is managing a hide of land, and hopes to manage more, than they will perform deeds or quests that aid the clan (and the clan chief) with the expectation that they will be rewarded with more to manage.  

This is specifically the model in Sartar (and presumably most/all places that Ernalda & Orlanth are the dominant F & M deities); so it's default for PC's.

There are some places where a good Orlanthi adventurer might go to "own" land, but that would mostly be somewhere outside of Sartar & away from his clan & family.

 

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52 minutes ago, g33k said:

This is specifically the model in Sartar (and presumably most/all places that Ernalda & Orlanth are the dominant F & M deities); so it's default for PC's.

There are some places where a good Orlanthi adventurer might go to "own" land, but that would mostly be somewhere outside of Sartar & away from his clan & family.

Yep. If the PCs don't get the land from a clan/tribe chieftain or a temple priestess, they probably got that land themselves by killing or driving the previous owners away, in which case it's free :D   (well, it's the price of the raid, I guess).

Going to some wild and somewhat uninhabited place like Balazar or even Pent or whatever, all you need to do and setup a fence and you're good. The only problem is when monsters, nomads, or whatever else roams those lands comes back around and finds your stead. They will probably not take kindly to it.

In a most civilized place line the Lunar Provinces, lands owned by nobles probably get sold and bought in a more traditional way. In that case, depending on how good the location is (roaming Chaos monsters? Frequent raids from the neighbours?), I would consider the money the land is worth per year, and multiply that by between 5 to 20 years... up to 40 years for a place like Glamour or Nochet. So if a typical hide of land produces 80L/year, I would set the selling price between 400L and 3200L... but that might be accompanied by "softer" terms like political agreements and such.

Edited by lordabdul
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It is possible to be gifted land, in which case the PC actually owns the land, although this is rare. Have a look at demesne land in the Middle Ages for a very similar concept, land held in your own right rather than holding it from a Lord or King.

What is more common is to be given the land for yourself and your descendants to use forever. The land still remains the property of the clan and the PCs and their descendant act as if they owned the land. It might be possible to transfer the title of the land to someone else, depending on the agreement, in which case someone else would use the land instead and could buy the use of the land, if not the land itself.

6 hours ago, lordabdul said:

In a most civilized place line the Lunar Provinces, lands owned by nobles probably get sold and bought in a more traditional way. In that case, depending on how good the location is (roaming Chaos monsters? Frequent raids from the neighbours?), I would consider the money the land is worth per year, and multiply that by between 5 to 20 years... up to 40 years for a place like Glamour or Nochet. So if a typical hide of land produces 80L/year, I would set the selling price between 400L and 3200L... but that might be accompanied by "softer" terms like political agreements and such.

20 times annual income seems right, but Bargaining could come into play.

 

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I am not sure that it will help but in the Early Middle Ages, in the East, one considered that the owner of a land would make an annual profit of 4.16% of the value of the land (net profit all things paid). This is for land they did not cultivate themselves but rented. So a good parallel for thane's land given to cottars for instance. I could check for small land-holders cultivating the land directly. So, yes, if a typical hide of land produces 80L/year, then its ideal cost would be ca. 1900 L, or 24 years of revenue. Since the exemple comes from the Eastern Roman Empire, it could help for the civilized lands like the Lunar empire.

As far as Sartar-like countries are concerned, "buying land" could also be possible I think. if someone comes back from an adventure with booty or cows, I think it could manage to give this to the clan against the allocation of extra lands. Obviously it is not ownership and as such not a purchase but the economic results would be similar. Under Lunar occupation, it could be even easier as the booty could be used to pay part of the Lunar tribute due by the clan. Because as far as I know, paying in cows would be impossible. A cow herd, in primitive agricultural conditions, grew by 1/8th each year so for a 1000 person clan, the tribute would be 200 cows, the total growth of an herd of 1600 heads. And obviously this will kill the herd on the long run. So to be "viable" the herd should be much bigger (I can't do the math, sorry) and this could prove difficult. As such alternative form of payment, including adventurers' booty would be very important for the clan's economy, with land allocations in return a good solution.

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Like others have said, there are huge practical issues here, but as a benchmark, you could say 500L. My reasoning here is that 20 cows produce as much income as a hide of land, and so should be similarly valued.

Although this discounts the need for land for the cattle, so if this is a limiting factor and you want to make things more complicated, add a cost for that (unclear what).

At 500L and hiring one person for the job and 20% to the temples, and barring problems like raids, the ROI comes out at 6%, which seems reasonable. The inevitable wars and raids will then bring this number down.

Edited by Akhôrahil
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good question, a lot of good aswers

On my side, if you want to own a land in sartar (or sartar-like) it is very easy : create your own clan and claim the ground ! (hum the concept is easy, isn't it ?)

But what about ownership in a sartarite city ? what about a shop in the heortling village ? not clear, for me

Sun county and Dorastor described (in my oriflam version) well what seems a kind of ownership : the count/chief "gives" you a land, if you are able to manage it, it is yours ( = you have the right to be here) and your heir will gain it after your death (if the heir is able to manage it too). That means a land has to be managed, not just owned.

I m note sure than in "more civilized" country (like lunar) ownership is easier.

- you may have to prove some "right to own" (a kind of nobility ? moon likes social mobility or just social nobility ?)

- you have to find a seller. I m not sure it is so easy.

 

 

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In countries were land ownership is a thing, considering how underpopulated most areas are, it should be pretty easy to do it as long as you want to clear new lands. Buying already well-developed land is another matter. Most probably you will have something akin to emphyteutic leases from some powerful institution (temple, aristocratic family); so in the end something not so different from the Sartarite situation.

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1 hour ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

... On my side, if you want to own a land in sartar (or sartar-like) it is very easy : create your own clan and claim the ground ! (hum the concept is easy, isn't it ?) ...

YGMV

But I think you're mistaken, even in this case.  For the "Storm Tribe" peoples -- which in modern times means the Storm/Earth marriage -- the land *IS* Ernalda; and you cannot "own" -- nor buy nor sell -- Ernalda.

Ultimately, all mortals are more "stewards" of the land, than owners.  The "thane" is steward as granted by their clan; but the clan's claim is equally one of "stewardship" as granted by the Ernaldan temple, or directly by Ernalda, or another spiritual agency derived/delegated from Ernalda.  Even Orlanth's kingship:  yes, he did many heroic deeds and so forth; but fundamentally, it was marriage to Ernalda that made him "king" (and part of the reason why there was so much rivalry for her hand).  Kingship of Sartar is (often) similarly derived as marriage to the FHQ (leading Earth-Priestess in the region).

I agree that a "new clan" (either just retcon'ed into place by a GM/group so they can have more freedom in a campaign; or carved out of existing territories via in-game action of conquest/politics/etc) can get a chunk of land that's "theirs" -- but it's still Ernalda's.  If they treat the land badly, if they make Ernalda unhappy... why then, "their" land will stop being bounteous or fruitful.  Crops will fail, herds will dwindle, etc etc etc; because it's Ernalda Herself who is giving them all that, and She won't do it if they're being jerks.

 

Edited by g33k
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1 hour ago, g33k said:

YGMV

But I think you're mistaken, even in this case.  For the "Storm Tribe" peoples -- which in modern times means the Storm/Earth marriage -- the land *IS* Ernalda; and you cannot "own" -- nor buy nor sell -- Ernalda.

Ultimately, all mortals are more "stewards" of the land, than owners.  The "thane" is steward as granted by their clan; but the clan's claim is equally one of "stewardship" as granted by the Ernaldan temple, or directly by Ernalda, or another spiritual agency derived/delegated from Ernalda.  Even Orlanth's kingship:  yes, he did many heroic deeds and so forth; but fundamentally, it was marriage to Ernalda that made him "king" (and part of the reason why there was so much rivalry for her hand).  Kingship of Sartar is (often) similarly derived as marriage to the FHQ (leading Earth-Priestess in the region).

I agree that a "new clan" (either just retcon'ed into place by a GM/group so they can have more freedom in a campaign; or carved out of existing territories via in-game action of conquest/politics/etc) can get a chunk of land that's "theirs" -- but it's still Ernalda's.  If they treat the land badly, if they make Ernalda unhappy... why then, "their" land will stop being bounteous or fruitful.  Crops will fail, herds will dwindle, etc etc etc; because it's Ernalda Herself who is giving them all that, and She won't do it if they're being jerks.

 

you are absolutely right

I was more on "who in mundane world can decide to allot lands."

of course, there are the gods, and my gods seem more difficult than others gm (as they decide if the rune magic will work or not)

I m not sure about the mundane role of earth temples. Does that mean that earth temple (so priestess) allot land to a clan ?  Or do the temple explain what is good for ernalda to the clan claiming/defending/plowing the land ?

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55 minutes ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

...

I m not sure about the mundane role of earth temples. Does that mean that earth temple (so priestess) allot land to a clan ?  Or do the temple explain what is good for ernalda to the clan claiming/defending/plowing the land ?

I think it depends.

In a sort of "theoretical" manner, everyone realizes the earthly supremacy of the Earth Queen, and how everything comes from her.

In a practical manner... some temples are larger, and have vast swaths of land that they assign to various groups... and can re-assign away from any group that behaves badly enough (making them landless, unless they have other land outside the sway of that Earth Temple (more realistically, I'd expect the Earth temple to re-assign *part* of the land, to be returned in some time (say... 3 years, or 5, or 10) if the erring land-holder amends their behavior).

In other cases, a Clan may have existed on land that had NO functioning Earth Temple for many generations; and so when a High Priestess arrives, and a temple is founded, the Clan "acknowledge" that the Earth Queen is supreme, but neither Clan Ring nor Temple Priestess expects quite the same relationship (and yet, in a worst case scenario -- the land is STILL Ernalda's, and gives or withholds Her blessings at Her will...).

And, of course, YGMV!

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5 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

On my side, if you want to own a land in sartar (or sartar-like) it is very easy : create your own clan and claim the ground ! (hum the concept is easy, isn't it ?)

Yes. As a clan, you can claim ownership of a piece of land (or a couple of pieces of land).

 

5 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

But what about ownership in a sartarite city ?

In a Sartarite city, all city ground is owned by an organisation carrying the city and the city ring. That can be tribal areas belonging to one of the confederated tribes (administrated by the tribal manor in the city), there are guild- and temple-owned areas, and there may be cases where the clan previously owning the city site may retain possession of parts of the city ground. (Postulated for the Arsgol-Clan in Jonstown, at the very least in Ingo Tschinke's quite influential version which used material from Greg to an extent. I can't tell whether certain details came from Greg or whether they were created by Ingo and friends.)

The buildings on this ground might be private property, on an inheritable rent, or they may be the property of the land-owning organisation.

5 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

what about a shop in the heortling village ? not clear, for me

Heortling villages are usually owned by a single clan, although there may be villages with inhabitants from various clans. Such villages may be on ground owned by a major temple rather than a clan or tribe.

 

Tribes usually don't own most of the land occupied by the tribe directly. Their clans do. The tribal temple (to wit, the king's direct support structure) will own the portions of the confederated city (if in a confederation, which most tribes in Sartar are), it will own land where tenants are settled (I suspect Apple Lane is such a case), even when those tenants belong to one (or several) of the constituent clans, and they may have been granted traditional grazing or hunting ranges from the constituent clans upon the clans joining the tribe.

5 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

Sun county and Dorastor described (in my oriflam version) well what seems a kind of ownership : the count/chief "gives" you a land, if you are able to manage it, it is yours ( = you have the right to be here) and your heir will gain it after your death (if the heir is able to manage it too). That means a land has to be managed, not just owned.

A chief or other leader has given you (and your family) the land, and it is fairly unusual (though not unknown) to revoke such a lease unless your family grossly mis-manages that resource. 

I have always been a little uncertain how assigning carl/freeman and cottar/tenant status is handled for a household, especially if it is a new branch off an existing household (like a brother of the son who inherits the position of steadholder from the parent, wishing to keep out of that new steadholder's hair). Will a single bloodline end up distributed among carl and cottar households?

 

5 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

I m note sure than in "more civilized" country (like lunar) ownership is easier.

It's really Dara Happan, and I have the idea that all land is held by Yelmic nobility. (Which will be almost completely lunarized by the 8th Wane, but certainly not completely up to the 4th Wane.) Dara Happan society is terribly stratified.

Dara Happan overseers also manage places in Peloria which may have different concepts of land ownership.

 

From what we know about land grants to e.g. Duke Raus, Renekot the Stone, or Ethilrist, the Red Emperor assumes the authority to assign a piece of land to someone as a reward, often apparently without checking previous ownership of that land. It is easy to be generous with land that you don't really control (yet).

Glorantha wouldn't be Glorantha if claiming a piece of land would not involve some contract with the Land Goddess, represented either by an already existing earth temple, or represented by an earth priesthood you bring along with you. Even the Malkioni and Brithini appear to go through these steps.

 

5 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

- you may have to prove some "right to own" (a kind of nobility ? moon likes social mobility or just social nobility ?)

You will have to grease palms, pay tributes, and you may have to battle it out to be able to take a claim. Without a big-name sponsor, the tributes asked of you can be ruinous - the enmity between the Colymar and the Malani stems in part from the migration history of the Malani, and the Colymar asking tribute for their right to pass through. One mythological case of land ownership dispute is the story of the Lawstaff Quest, briefly suggesting two rivaling Orlanthi proofs of ownership.

A title to a piece of land usually comes with a tax or a tribute you are expected to pay to an authority or five. In the Empire, that includes imperial, satrapial and probably other subordinate offices' taxes. Being a tax payer to such an autority is a form of nobility. The lesser the status of the institution or person getting your taxes, the lower your status will be, and vice versa.

In a strict Dara Happan environment, there will be a requirement for nobility in order to control land which has certain tax requirements. In a Lunarized Lodrilite environment, such mobility is a lot easier, but then the entire native Lodrilite society is treated like Dara Happan lower tier population by the overseers.

5 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

- you have to find a seller. I m not sure it is so easy.

I think it will be fairly easy to find a noble landholder in desperate needs for funds, willing to lease you some piece of land. Willing to give up their claim entirely will be rare.

A king may confiscate the land of traitors, and distribute it to some other follower(s).

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I've been reading...  Michael Hudson's book, "and forgive them their debts":  

In ancient Babylonian society, and its predecessor Tigris / Euphrates city states, land ownership was originally vested in the family or village.  There was no provision for selling it, it was just inheritance and bloodline.  That's your late neolithic and early bronze age situation.

But then someone had a bright idea:  Pay some poor and aging head of household to adopt you and name you heir.   The adoptee contracted to support the adopter as a parent, in principle.  Evidently with very specific written terms, according to tablets that survive today.  Eventually the adoptee would inherit. 

A second method of obtaining private ownership of land outside of tradition was in form a lease in exchange for a loan, but the original owner of the land would seldom be able to redeem it because the loan rates were usurious, 33% or 50% annually.  This would be easy to do in famine years, a take it or leave it situation.  And the heirs would inherit ownership in form, but they also inherited the debt.  The heirs became tenant farmers in actual fact, and the "lender" was entitled to the agricultural production of the land minus whatever he gave the tenants.  If they weren't satisfied with that they could leave and become homeless.

Thus alienation of the land for cash (or trade goods, grain in famine years) was originated.  It took generations, but these two methods were how big private landholding originated, outside of the previous methods of hereditary high priesthood of a temple or of kingship.  And the concentration of wealth begot more wealth, and tenant farming for rent, which weakened the society:  Where previously the king raised his army and collected taxes from the land holding peasant families, there was a shortage of such peasant families, therefore weaker monarchies unable to defend their city-state, and the city state went down to invasion.  It was a cycle.

It became a virtuous act for kings to declare a cancellation of debts and reversion of land to the original families: a jubilee.   When the private large landholders grew too powerful for the kings to do that, the city state went down.

So, back to Glorantha:  In principle your character wanting to obtain land could use one of those methods.  But beware, the Babylonian societies of the bronze age didn't like them, they were cheating outside of the traditional social contract.  And jubilees were popular.  What will your Sartarite society think?

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On 10/4/2020 at 8:32 PM, lordabdul said:

Yep. If the PCs don't get the land from a clan/tribe chieftain or a temple priestess, they probably got that land themselves by killing or driving the previous owners away, in which case it's free :D   (well, it's the price of the raid, I guess).

 

Do note that this land will still not belong to the adventurers, it will still belong to the clan, Unless they decide to remove themselves from the protection of the clan and make their own clan. Of course I would say they have a damn good claim at farming it for the clan, though!

 

14 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

On my side, if you want to own a land in sartar (or sartar-like) it is very easy : create your own clan and claim the ground ! (hum the concept is easy, isn't it ?)

 

As I said above, but again there is a downside, Unless you can protect yourself, a  new clan is not protected by any existing law. Lacking legal protection what will keep the wolves at bay? Why won’t someone take away what they have worked so hard to gain?

13 hours ago, g33k said:

But I think you're mistaken, even in this case.  For the "Storm Tribe" peoples -- which in modern times means the Storm/Earth marriage -- the land *IS* Ernalda; and you cannot "own" -- nor buy nor sell -- Ernalda.

So never mind the mundane let’s go spiritual and we find this works too! In GLorantha it seems hard to operate the mundane form the spiritual/magical!

 

 

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Some years ago I compiled RW price lists from across the bronze age 'Near East', which are remarkably consistent.  The prices are in 'heavy' shekels as far as can be told, a standard measure even before coinage.  1 mina = 60 shekels, 1 talent = 60 minas.  (The sources being a variety of national Law Codes and actual sales documents.)

 

Real Estate

Acre of land around settlement                                                 3

                    near the                                                               2

                    further from the settlement                                 1

Acre of established vineyard                                                    60

House rent                                                                                    1.5/year

House rent, noted as bordering a field                                      4, plus 3 baskets of dates/year

House Purchase                                                                           5 talents & 30 minas of lead!

 

These prices refer, of course, only to states where private ownership of land was normative.

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22 hours ago, Ali the Helering said:

Some years ago I compiled RW price lists from across the bronze age 'Near East', which are remarkably consistent.  The prices are in 'heavy' shekels as far as can be told, a standard measure even before coinage.  1 mina = 60 shekels, 1 talent = 60 minas.  (The sources being a variety of national Law Codes and actual sales documents.)

SNIP for brevity. 

Ali, I am having a hard time understanding this, could you expound on the acres around a property a bit more. Apologies for being obtuse.

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Proximity to housing meant less time lost due to walking to and from work and hence higher productivity, a lower probability of large predators, and somewhere to run to in the event of bandit raids.  If you were purchasing it, the closer it was the higher the probability that the land had been 'improved' by previous owners, so the price increased commensurately.   

The peculiar thing (to our way of thinking) is that these prices appear to have been stable across a wide area of numerous nations for many hundred years.

Since the house rent when 'bordering a field' is so much higher I can only assume that the field is included, but I have no evidence for this.

Very sorry for being confusing!

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1 hour ago, seasparrow said:

I asked this question on the Facebook group, recently, and got some good answers. I explicitly asked with a view toward creating "gameable moments" in an upcoming campaign, and I urge everyone to adopt that attitude, or as the Olds say around here, "Maximum Game Fun."

Ahem.  "Olds"? 

Grognards, if you don't mind. 

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