Strike Rank confusion

[Adaras]

Hi everyone

So I bought the PDF cause I love bronze age stuff and really digging the book  even though it could really use some stuff for the GM like NPCs and a Bestiary.

Anywho.

Strike Ranks! They took me some time to wrap my head around. 

I decided to look at some of the pregenerated characters to get some help but some of them seems to be calcuated wrong? 

Vasana Farnan have a lance that is listed as having Strike Rank 6 but her Dex SR is 3 and her size SR is 2. The Lance has a sr of 0.
Then why is she listed as 6? should it be 5?

Yanioth Vareena is listed as having a dagger that strikes at 6

Her Dex SR is 2 and Size sr is 1. But a Dagger especially the type of damage it deals its sr is 4 so she could be at 7 no?

Its a thing I believe really could have used some more clarification

[PhilHibbs]

25 minutes ago, Adaras said:

I decided to look at some of the pregenerated characters to get some help but some of them seems to be calcuated wrong? 

Vasana Farnan have a lance that is listed as having Strike Rank 6 but her Dex SR is 3 and her size SR is 2. The Lance has a sr of 0.

Hm, my spreadsheet seems to agree.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Chl3uNpxfzUp3kyGCc8P2-2ow5rYA3iBYbqoFzkf5PA/edit?usp=sharing

Maybe there is some special rule about lance SR to do with the mount you are on, like damage bonus, but if anything then that would reduce it and not increase it. I've had a search of the rules and can't find anything so I assume it's just a mistake, possibly a hold over from an earlier iteration of the rules. Well done, spotting a new one after all this time!

Vishi Dunn's appears to be correct.

Edited October 9, 2020 by PhilHibbs

[soltakss]

1 hour ago, Adaras said:

I decided to look at some of the pregenerated characters to get some help but some of them seems to be calcuated wrong? 

They could well be slightly wrong, especially if weapons stats changed during the writing process. 

Stats are notoriously difficult to get 100% right.

1 hour ago, Adaras said:

Vasana Farnan have a lance that is listed as having Strike Rank 6 but her Dex SR is 3 and her size SR is 2. The Lance has a sr of 0.
Then why is she listed as 6? should it be 5?

As Phil says, this is likely to do with her mount. Most mounts are big, so have SIZ SR of 0, but are not nimble, so have higher DEX SR.

1 hour ago, Adaras said:

Yanioth Vareena is listed as having a dagger that strikes at 6

Her Dex SR is 2 and Size sr is 1. But a Dagger especially the type of damage it deals its sr is 4 so she could be at 7 no?

Yes, that is probably right.

1 hour ago, Adaras said:

Its a thing I believe really could have used some more clarification

You are correct.

Some people don't mind and just use the stats in the book, regardless of whether they are right, RQ works perfectly well if the stats are not exactly the same as the rules would imply.

However, when learning a new system, it can be jarring if the rules say one thing and Pregenerated Characters say another, especially if they are used as good examples of the rules.

I am sorry to say that you are likely to find many such examples when going through the rulebook.

[Redjac]

I am confused too.

How many arrows can one fire with a composite bow? 

Assuming a DEX SR of 1 and a prepared arrow with a quiver to draw new arrows, can one fire arrows on SR 1, 6, and 11? 

The Hunter in the Pre-generated characters has only a SR of 6 by the bow.

Any help appreciated.

Redjac

[Stephen L]

35 minutes ago, Redjac said:

Assuming a DEX SR of 1 and a prepared arrow with a quiver to draw new arrows, can one fire arrows on SR 1, 6, and 11

Correct, although I assume it's an additional 5 to reload, so it would be SR1 fire, SR2 start reload, which would mean the next at SR 7. 

If you don't have the arrow at the ready, it would go off at 6 (and then 12).  Perhaps that's what the sheet refers to?

However, the info doesn't really fit easily on a character sheet, so I generally leave it at 1/MR or S/MR when I'm filling out character sheets.

Edited October 9, 2020 by Stephen L
typo...

[Stephen L]

5 hours ago, Adaras said:

it could really use some stuff for the GM like NPCs and a Bestiary

There's a few useful resources.

First the Bestiary:

https://www.chaosium.com/runequest-glorantha-bestiary-hardcover/

But really, if you want to play RuneQuest, get the slip case set, it has *everything* you need, the GM screen is so much more than just a screen, it has adventures and a fantastic campaign setting.

https://www.chaosium.com/runequest-roleplaying-in-glorantha-slipcase-set/

Now for NPCs, there's lots on the web:

To auto generate NPCs:
https://www.cradleofheroes.net/

Phil Hibbs has spreadsheets, covered in this thread.

 

There's also a generator from Dan Z here:
https://basicroleplaying.net/rqg/

I've one I've written myself, available on request (in c# .net), but I've output a range of NPCs and a few creatures for download here (added to when I need to for my campaign, most recently ducks)

There's NPCs on the Jonstown Compendium in Akhelas' Heortlings of Sartar
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/315742/Heortlings-of-Sartar

If you don't mind conversion from RQ ii, you could use fangs (or even don't bother converting, the players won't notice!):
https://www.chaosium.com/content/FreePDFs/RuneQuest/Classic/CHA4002- FANGS - Monster Stats.pdf

or indeed, there's a bundle of RQii stuff including packs of NPCs
https://www.chaosium.com/runequest-old-school-resource-pack/

 

[coffeemancer]

dont weapons also have different SR based on how close you are? a guy with a lance vs a guy with a fagger will have the best SR until the guy with the dagger is all up in his grill and his lancetip is nowhere near daggerguy?

[Scotty]

5 hours ago, Adaras said:

I decided to look at some of the pregenerated characters to get some help but some of them seems to be calculated wrong?

Yes, there are a few errors, some were corrected in the GM screen pack (not these).

5 hours ago, Adaras said:

Vasana Farnan have a lance that is listed as having Strike Rank 6 but her Dex SR is 3 and her size SR is 2. The Lance has a sr of 0.
Then why is she listed as 6? should it be 5?

Correct, DEXSR 3 + SIZSR 2 + Lance SR 0 = 5

5 hours ago, Adaras said:

Yanioth Vareena is listed as having a dagger that strikes at 6

Her Dex SR is 2 and Size sr is 1. But a Dagger especially the type of damage it deals its sr is 4 so she could be at 7 no?

Correct, DEXSR 2 + SIZSR 1 + Dagger SR 4 = 7

I will send these to Jason and I've added them to the corrections page:

https://wellofdaliath.chaosium.com/home/catalogue/publishers/chaosium/runequest-roleplaying-in-glorantha-players-book-print/cha4028-runequest-roleplaying-in-glorantha-qa-by-chapter/cha4028-runequest-roleplaying-in-glorantha-chapter-03-pregenerated-adventurers-qa/

[Stephen L]

4 hours ago, soltakss said:

As Phil says, this is likely to do with her mount. Most mounts are big, so have SIZ SR of 0, but are not nimble, so have higher DEX SR.

I can't see why the mount would matter, Vasana's still the one holding the lance.  If she was riding some really big monster (maybe she's become a dragon rider), then the monster's head would get there before the pointy bit of the lance.  Although riding a dragon, I suspect you don't really need a lance.  Looks good, though, especially with a pennant.

[Stephen L]

21 minutes ago, coffeemancer said:

lance vs a guy with a fagger will have the best SR until the guy

I think RQiii had rules for closing with foes with longer weapons (might be mistaken, it's ages since I've played RQiii), but not that I recall in RQinG.

[Atgxtg]

2 hours ago, Stephen L said:

I think RQiii had rules for closing with foes with longer weapons (might be mistaken, it's ages since I've played RQiii), but not that I recall in RQinG.

Yes it did. Generally speaking the character with the shorter weapon couldn't strike the one with the longer weapon until he successfully closed. Then the character with the longer weapon couldn't strike until he backed away.

[DreadDomain]

4 hours ago, coffeemancer said:

dont weapons also have different SR based on how close you are? a guy with a lance vs a guy with a fagger will have the best SR until the guy with the dagger is all up in his grill and his lancetip is nowhere near daggerguy?

RQG has not reintroduced this rule yet. Hopefully it will in a future supplement.

2 hours ago, Atgxtg said:

Yes it did. Generally speaking the character with the shorter weapon couldn't strike the one with the longer weapon until he successfully closed. Then the character with the longer weapon couldn't strike until he backed away.

This is not quite how RQ3 RAW worked. If two combattants were fighting at "engagement range" (the longer weapon fighter keeps the short weapon fighter at a distance), normal SR would apply. Short weapon fighter (SWF) can attack at his normal SR, which is most likely after the longer weapon fighter (LWF) can attack.

SWF could attempt to close by moving closer (taking an extra SR before he acts). LWF could keep SWF at bay by maneuvering out (also taking an extra SR before he acts). If LWF would not or could not move away, combattants would start the next SR at closed range.

Once closed, SWF would always act before LWF (which we interpreted as "the SR before the LWF acts). While closed, LWF could only choose to attack or parry or dodge.

[Arcadiagt5]

12 hours ago, Adaras said:

Hi everyone

So I bought the PDF cause I love bronze age stuff and really digging the book  even though it could really use some stuff for the GM like NPCs and a Bestiary.

Anywho.

Strike Ranks! They took me some time to wrap my head around. 

Welcome and yes SRs do take some getting used to. I have some relatively new players in my Roll20 game & this is how I recently explained it in our discord:

In melee there are three components:

• How fast you are (DEX)
• How much reach you have (SIZ)
• How long your weapon is.

In general you can only attack once in melee. Partial exceptions apply for two weapon use (if you're crazy enough to go there), and skills over 100% where you can elect to split your skill if your melee SR is <= 6. Or three ways if you somehow get to 150% and a MSR of <= 4. 

In missile fire there are, for most cases, two components:

• How fast you are (DEX)
• The flat 5 SRs needed to pull a weapon out, put a weapon away, load an arrow, etc.

So, assuming you loaded last round, your first arrow goes on DEX (or 1 if your DEX SR = 0), and the second on DEX + 5 + DEX again. If you weren't loaded last round, your first shot goes on 5 + DEX. In either case if you have 5 left but not 5 + DEX, you can reload but not shoot. If you don't have 5 left, you can't reload this round. 

For movement each 3m (6m if you have Mobility cast) costs you 1SR. If you spend more than half your movement, you can't engage in melee, cast spells, or shoot missiles. (Exception applies for lance charges in my house rules because moving fast is the whole point)

For spells there are four components:

• Type (Rune/Spirit/just say no to Sorcery)
• How fast you are (DEX, spirit magic only)
• Time to refocus on the next spell (5, spirit magic only)
• Magic points (both)

Rune Spells: You cannot cast any other magic in a round where you case a rune spell. It goes off on SR1 + any SRs you spent moving + (MP-1). NB: You can add MP to a rune spell that otherwise does not need them to punch through countermagic. e.g. A Lightning-1+0 bounces off Countermagic-4. A Lightning-1+4MP kills the Countermagic and then has a chance to affect the target.

Spirit Magic: First spell goes off on DEX+(MP-1)+ any SRs you spent moving. Requires a free hand or that you be holding the relevant focus/target of the spell (e.g. casting bladesharp on the sword you're holding). For the second spell in the same round, even if it's a repeat: +5+DEX+(MP-1). So two 1 point Disruption spells can often happen, but two Heal-6 can't (because there's 15 SRs right there before DEX, and you generally can't carry stuff between rounds). 

Mixing and Matching: This depends on your status. If you are not yet engaged in melee you can move to engage, cast a spell, then attack. Once engaged (in subsequent rounds), you are pinned (so are your opponent(s)). Moving triggers an attack of opportunity (generally). If you don't move you can a) defend and cast spells or b) attack and defend. Moving, casting, and missile fire can be combined, but be aware that this is likely to cost you your second shot that round. 

I hope this helps. 

[Arcadiagt5]

8 hours ago, Redjac said:

Assuming a DEX SR of 1 and a prepared arrow with a quiver to draw new arrows, can one fire arrows on SR 1, 6, and 11? 

I think this requires a DEX SR0 to achieve, if then*.

If already loaded, the sequence is DEX (or 1 if 0)+5+DEX (or 1 if 0)+5+DEX (or 1 if 0). 

So bold below is when the shots take place

• DEX SR=0 ==> 1+5+0+5+0 = 11. 3 shots, weapon unloaded. Next round: 5+0+5+0=10. 2 shots, weapon unloaded. Rinse, Repeat, can move 2 each round, or cast Spirit Magic up to 3MP*
• DEX SR=1 ==>1+5+1+5=12. 2 shots, weapon loaded. Rinse repeat. But moving or casting costs a shot. 
• DEX SR=2 ==> 2+5+2=9. 2 shots, weapon unloaded. Next round: 5+2+5=12. 1 shot, weapon loaded. Some flexibility for moving/casting ROF alternates 2/1
• DEX SR=3 ==> 3+5+3=11. 2 shots, weapon unloaded. Next round is: 5+3 = 8. 1 shot, weapon unloaded. ROF after first round always 1, with move/casting allowance.
• DEX DR=4 ==> 4+5=9. 1 shot, weapon loaded. Rinse repeat, 3SRs to move/cast with. 

* I'm not sure but there may have been a rule clarification somewhere that this interpretation is wrong, and that DEX SR0 should be treated as if it were DEX SR1 for missile fire. 

EDIT: Found it = Scroll down to Rate of Fire here: https://wellofdaliath.chaosium.com/home/catalogue/publishers/chaosium/runequest-roleplaying-in-glorantha-players-book-print/cha4028-runequest-roleplaying-in-glorantha-qa-by-chapter/cha4028-runequest-roleplaying-in-glorantha-chapter-08-combat-qa-part-2/

If I'm reading that correctly, DEX SR=0 should be treated as if it is DEX SR=1 for the purposes of missile fire. So 2 shots a round is the maximum. 

Edited October 10, 2020 by Arcadiagt5

[Stephen L]

I play almost exactly as described by Arcadiagt5, thanks

6 hours ago, Arcadiagt5 said:

DEX SR0 should be treated as if it were DEX SR1

That isn't clear to me from the clarification.

I play Dex SR = 0, fire at 0/5/10 (prepared), 5/10 unprepared.

However, I think we need clarification of the clarification!  (That almost deserves a smiley, except that I can't bring myself to use emoticons. What's wrong with (an) exclamation mark?  I agree, though, that more than one is beyond the pale.)

I am comfortable with the concept of something happening at SR0, but perhaps that's just my maths background.

7 hours ago, Arcadiagt5 said:

For spells there are four components

Magic, I only allow one spell each MR, regardless of type of magic.  But I now can't find the rule.  I'm beginning to think I've carried this across from RQii/iii?  

7 hours ago, Arcadiagt5 said:

just say no to Sorcery

Indeed.  I skipped this section when reading the rules, anxious to get on with the fun.  I can get away with it because my players have *no* interest in rules, that's the GM's responsibility alone.  They just look at their character sheets for something written down that looks as though it might be useful.  However, some of the younger players are now beginning to help explain things to mummies and daddy.

[Arcadiagt5]

3 minutes ago, Stephen L said:

I play almost exactly as described by Arcadiagt5, thanks

You’re welcome!

4 minutes ago, Stephen L said:

That isn't clear to me from the clarification.

I play Dex SR = 0, fire at 0/5/10 (prepared), 5/10 unprepared.

However, I think we need clarification of the clarification!  (That almost deserves a smiley, except that I can't bring myself to use emoticons. What's wrong with (an) exclamation mark?  I agree, though, that more than one is beyond the pale.)

I am comfortable with the concept of something happening at SR0, but perhaps that's just my maths background.

From a mathematical perspective I wouldn’t have much of a problem with it either. From a myth perspective it creates the possibility of arrows going off before Rune Spells and that doesn’t feel right to me. But, yes, I think the clarification could do with some explanation as to why DEX SR0 is effectively SR1 in missile combat but actually SR0 in melee combat.

9 minutes ago, Stephen L said:

Magic, I only allow one spell each MR, regardless of type of magic.  But I now can't find the rule.  I'm beginning to think I've carried this across from RQii/iii?  

RQG RAW P194, second column: “Any subsequent spells require 5 strike ranks to prepare, even if the same spell is being used.” I also apply DEX on top, but on reading it again maybe I shouldn’t. I'll have to think about that. 

16 minutes ago, Stephen L said:

Indeed.  I skipped this section when reading the rules, anxious to get on with the fun.  I can get away with it because my players have *no* interest in rules, that's the GM's responsibility alone.  They just look at their character sheets for something written down that looks as though it might be useful.  However, some of the younger players are now beginning to help explain things to mummies and daddy.

As far as sorcery goes I generally point to the existence of this... thing. I'm sure it’s very good for what it does (I have some other play aids from the and they’re very good), but if a set of mechanics needs something like that to manage quickly, then just say no. 

[Stephen L]

32 minutes ago, Arcadiagt5 said:

RQG RAW P194

Thanks.

That also raises the spectre of multiple arrows in a round having speedart on them.

I have a vague recollection (maybe a rule clarification), that spells cast on a weapon you're holding don't have the 5SR cost for swapping between spells / melee actions.  In which case an Dex SR 0 (elf for example), might cast speedart on SR0, then add 0 to fire arrow (i.e. still at 0), then 5 to draw arrow and prepare new spell (if you allow both preparation actions to be in parallel rather than series), then fire again with speedart at 5, and again at 10.

Edited October 10, 2020 by Stephen L
Correct

[Arcadiagt5]

21 minutes ago, Stephen L said:

Thanks.

That also raises the spectre of multiple arrows in a round having speedart on them.

I have a vague recollection (maybe a rule clarification), that spells cast on a weapon you're holding don't have the 5SR cost for swapping between spells / melee actions.  In which case an Dex SR 0 (elf for example), might cast speedart on SR0, then add 0 to fire arrow (i.e. still at 0), then 5 to draw arrow and prepare new spell (if you allow both preparation actions to be in parallel rather than series), then fire again with speedart at 5, and again at 10.

You’re welcome again.

I definitely wouldn’t allow those preparations to take place in parallel. I allow people to draw/change weapons whilst moving because those are both physical task that can be trained/drilled for reasonably well. Combining spiritually focusing your mind on a subsequent spell with pulling a weapon? That starts reminding me of the “you have to make an INT roll to do physical things and spirit combat in the same round” so I either wouldn’t allow it, or I'd impose an INT roll of no higher than INTx3 or both actions fail. 

EDIT: On second read I think you’re conflating the free hand with preparing the weapon. Yes you can cast speedart on the arrow in the bow (assuming that your speedart focus is carved into the bow), but pulling a new arrow is 5SRs, and preparing to cast a second speedart is another (and different) 5SRs. 

Having said that, speedart is a temporal passive. So there’s no reason why the sneaky elf can’t spend 5 rounds casting speedart on 10 arrows, and 5 rounds using those arrows just before the 2 minutes runs out. Assuming that said sneaky elf gets to plan when to start the engagement that precisely. 

 

Edited October 10, 2020 by Arcadiagt5

[DreadDomain]

9 hours ago, Arcadiagt5 said:

Moving triggers an attack of opportunity (generally).

It's the case in RQ3 but is it also the case in RQG? Or are you talking about an opponent disengaging by fleeing?

Edited October 10, 2020 by DreadDomain

[Arcadiagt5]

22 minutes ago, DreadDomain said:

It's the case in RQ3 but is it also the case in RQG?

I was simplifying. The options are spelled out in full on RQG p195 and essentially boil down to:

• Spend a full round on pure defence, after which you're considered disengaged and can move away  at the end of the round or on SR6 if you're mounted and your opponent isn't. Can't be done at all if you're on foot & the opponent you're trying to disengage from is mounted. 
• Succeed in a Knockback attack, and move away after they're knocked back or down. Good luck. 
• Just move away anyway. This triggers the attack of opportunity which can't be parried or dodged. How good is your armour? 

Edited October 10, 2020 by Arcadiagt5

[Runeblogger]

I'd like to throw in this example of play that Trotsky did and I corrected a little bit:

https://elruneblog.blogspot.com/2020/09/playing-runequest-glorantha-den-of.html    👈

It could be useful for @Adaras and others to clear some things up. (But if you spot any misinterpretations, please let me know.)

[Bill the barbarian]

On 10/9/2020 at 5:48 AM, Adaras said:

Vasana Farnan have a lance that is listed as having Strike Rank 6 but her Dex SR is 3 and her size SR is 2. The Lance has a sr of 0.
Then why is she listed as 6? should it be 5?

Yanioth Vareena is listed as having a dagger that strikes at 6

Her Dex SR is 2 and Size sr is 1. But a Dagger especially the type of damage it deals its sr is 4 so she could be at 7 no?

Its a thing I believe really could have used some more clarification 

 

Well id no one else will give you likes for discovering a new item 2 years after release (really guy and gals, no likes for that) I will give him one.

Edited October 10, 2020 by Bill the barbarian

[Stephen L]

4 hours ago, Arcadiagt5 said:

“you have to make an INT roll to do physical things and spirit combat in the same round”

Except that pulling and nocking an arrow doesn't require thought, it's muscle memory.  Definitely not an Int roll thing.

And p194 under Magic attacks and Strike ranks:

Quote

However, casting a spell such as Bladesharp or Fireblade
on a weapon held in the hand and striking with it in the
same round only involves adding the normal strike rank to
cast the spell to the normal strike rank for that weapon for
that melee round.

And I'd count Speedart as the archer's Bladesharp.

Be very afraid the next time you go into an elf wood...  

 

[Psullie]

Page 192 states that any combination that results is SR 0 is treated as SR 1. No matter how dextrous, big or ready you are you can't go faster than SR 1. These are not absolute timings but order of action, if you are first you are first. When SR's are the same defer to DEX, if DEX is the same then both action occur simultaneously. Rune spells, unless boosted go off on SR 1, but is possible for someone with higher DEX to get the attack in first and disrupt a Rune spell. 

P194 does say that while most spells require 1 hand free, casting some spells in combat is permitted without the 5 point penalty as long as one hand is free. It is up to games master to make the call re missile weapons bing two handed etc. It also costs 5 SR to ready a new spell.

So the elf casting Speedart (allowing for two-handed use) on SR 1, then casts Firearrow (2 MP) (which is incompatible with speedart) on SR 7 (1+5+(2-1)) and looses arrow also on SR 7, then another arrow on 12. The smarter choice is to cast Speedart several times before combat as the missiles are primed for 2 minutes, then just grab and go: SR 1,  SR 6 & SR 11. And with a DEX of 19+ you'd likely get your first attack in before any Rune magic.

 

[Akhôrahil]

23 hours ago, Redjac said:

I am confused too.

How many arrows can one fire with a composite bow? 

Assuming a DEX SR of 1 and a prepared arrow with a quiver to draw new arrows, can one fire arrows on SR 1, 6, and 11? 

Not quite.

SR1: Fire!

SR6: Reload done

SR7: Fire!

SR12: Reload done