Jump to content

Lie as mind control


Scorus

Recommended Posts

On 10/21/2020 at 8:04 AM, g33k said:

Not a fan of finding ways to nerf the Lie spell.

Eurmali are f'ing dangerous.  There's a reason for all the opprobrium heaped upon them.

My Trickster used the Lie spell just last Sunday at the game to get rid of a troll ambush. They were planning to roll rocks down on us. He shouted out to them "flee for your lives, there are Gods down there"! They did. Confused some of the party members, some of whom thought they were gods and some of whom were looking around for the gods in the party, but they all figured out it was a lie quickly. Trolls probably did too, but they were intimidated. However, Rodney's character is quite convinced that his Goldeneye is a God, and is thinking of creating a cult around him. So what would we do without tricksters? Orlanth certainly thinks they are necessary.

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 10/21/2020 at 8:07 AM, g33k said:

That's part of the point.

But I disallow players who want to take Trickster PC's to be good party-members, faithfully and strategically deploying their (considerable!) powers for the greatest advantage to the party, the mission, etc.

Why? When I rolled up my Trickster, just from previous experience he ended up with Honor at 80%. So he is very honorable because that's how he got rolled up, without any assistance except from the dice. And he joined the party the same month that the party leader, his cousin, made Wind Lord, so he is bonded. Since then, our GM has commented that perhaps the only thing worse than an evil Trickster is a good one. His ideas of what should be done for the good of the party aren't always exactly those of anyone else...

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

21 hours ago, g33k said:

how many Eurmali have write-ups in canon; and how many of those have Lie?

  1. Jornkalor Pegasus Plateau p.12 NO
  2. Darvyn Blackfeather Pegasus Plateau p.63 NO
  3. Mernyr the Fox Pegasus Plateau p.80 NO
  4. Jorana Appas Pegasus Plateau p.147 YES
  5. Leana the Elura The Smoking Ruin p.26 YES
  6. Gooseberry Sprig Gamemaster Screen Pack p.63 YES

So 50% have Lie. I suspect that 1 Eurmal shrine in Sartar teaches Lie. 

My experience of Eurmali in RQ:G play is my friend Brian playing the Eurmali in the adventure GMed by Jason Durell at RQ Con Down Under in Nov 2019. Brian did an excellent job, and he suited the character well. 

Edited by AndrewTBP
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 10/21/2020 at 11:46 AM, g33k said:

2.  I actually don't see very much scope for Trickster in most PC parties; it's a bad option (and frankly I'm sorry to see it in the core book). 

I think Trickster PCs can easily work in a group, for the same reason Malkavian PCs also worked in Vampire (the latter actually probably having been inspired by the first, knowing the author...). Does an Eurmali give free reign for some players to act like assholes and ruin people's games? Yes, sure. But I suspect that these players would have been borderline annoying even with a normal character anyway.

In addition to this, remember that (unlike Malkavians) there's a bit of a checks-and-balances system in Glorantha for Eurmalis. The GM should definitely not be afraid to get the Eurmali in as much trouble than the Eurmali causes. For example, Orlanthi people (especially the men) are "emotional, often violently passionate, with swiftly shifting opinions and feelings"... and given the fact that Tricksters exist outside the law in most Dragon Pass cultures, I think it's really not uncommon that a blade suddenly appears near the Trickster's belly or throat. This is why a Trickster PC would probably have an Orlanthi protector in the party. Not only does it create a strong bond between 2 PCs (which is always useful for going from scenario to scenario), it also provides a way to explain why the Eurmali stays reasonable half the time.

What I might not allow is an "unprotected" Eurmali in the party, unless I trust the player. Even then, I would at least recommend it.

  • Like 1

Ludovic aka Lordabdul -- read and listen to  The God Learners , the Gloranthan podcast, newsletter, & blog !

Link to comment
Share on other sites

17 hours ago, lordabdul said:

I think Trickster PCs can easily work in a group, for the same reason Malkavian PCs also worked in Vampire (the latter actually probably having been inspired by the first, knowing the author...). Does an Eurmali give free reign for some players to act like assholes and ruin people's games? Yes, sure. But I suspect that these players would have been borderline annoying even with a normal character anyway.

In addition to this, remember that (unlike Malkavians) there's a bit of a checks-and-balances system in Glorantha for Eurmalis. The GM should definitely not be afraid to get the Eurmali in as much trouble than the Eurmali causes. For example, Orlanthi people (especially the men) are "emotional, often violently passionate, with swiftly shifting opinions and feelings"... and given the fact that Tricksters exist outside the law in most Dragon Pass cultures, I think it's really not uncommon that a blade suddenly appears near the Trickster's belly or throat. This is why a Trickster PC would probably have an Orlanthi protector in the party. Not only does it create a strong bond between 2 PCs (which is always useful for going from scenario to scenario), it also provides a way to explain why the Eurmali stays reasonable half the time.

What I might not allow is an "unprotected" Eurmali in the party, unless I trust the player. Even then, I would at least recommend it.

Remember that -- even if the *player* doesn't want to be an asshole (and granted, some players *do* (alas)), it's still the case that the *character* really is *supposed* to be an asshole (even Bonded).

I agree that there IS some scope for a Eurmali PC; I just disagree about the bit where you say they "... can easily work..."  (YGWV)

  • Like 1

C'es ne pas un .sig

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I had barely started playing RQ, when an old-hand told me the following anecdote:

The party were part of an army laying siege to a castle. Suddenly, a small dragon flew down to their rearguard, ready to wreak havoc. The Eurmali promptly cast a Lie spell at it and shouted towards the dragon: "You look exactly like a ballista bolt". The dragon suddenly became rigid and stiff, with its limbs and wings all stretched up from head to toe. They then mounted the strechted bolt-looking dragon onto their biggest ballista... and shot him to the castle walls. DANG...!!!

  • Like 3

Read my Runeblog about RuneQuest and Glorantha at: http://elruneblog.blogspot.com.es/

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Runeblogger said:

"You look exactly like a ballista bolt". The dragon suddenly became rigid and stiff

If it were my campaign, that would have caused the dragon existential angst as it settled down to eat the party.  Whilst it might be deeply concerned about its appearance, a meal is a meal...

If I were being really generous, I'd have given the players a short respite, whilst it found somewhere to look concernedly at its appearance, before it returned to finish things off.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 10/20/2020 at 10:47 PM, lordabdul said:

Where I don't agree that this spell is "ridiculous" or can be "abused" is that the caster can only control what the target believes. You can't predict what the target will do about it, and I think that's where the GM can have fun with it. You tell them "your family will be killed if you don't....", it doesn't mean they'll do that. It means they'll believe that something or someone is threatening their family and only doing "whatever" will save them. What kind of danger are they in? Where are they? How does the action relates to the danger they're in? Is a spirit responsible, or a God, or a band of trolls, or the Lunars? The target might have a lot of questions for you all of a sudden -- maybe they will think you're just the messenger, or maybe they'll think you're in on it and draw a sword. Maybe they'll rush to check on their family. Anything could happen.

 

Now this is good interpretation, Don’t know if it it is correct, but one has to give it credit if not credence. My question, does it work in your game, are you ok with the idea that an Eurmali is not only a fool but potentially a very dangerous fool equal to an OP humakti or...

On 10/21/2020 at 12:13 AM, Rodney Dangerduck said:

A friend pointed out an even better counterargument  why Lie requires no resistance roll: you cast it on yourself.

 

Can not fault this logic, seems sound.

 

On 10/21/2020 at 12:26 AM, Glorion said:

This is Glorantha. Whether the sun rises tomorrow is never automatic, although persuading Yelm not to rise tomorrow would be a big Heroquest. Haven't had a good Sunstop in centuries... But otherwise points taken. For it not to have unfortunate results does require an imaginative GM.

And this is one I was going mention but as stated by someone else, dawn will give porrf to this lie. 

ETA Eurmal might give porrf but it think the dawn would give proof (damn, I need an editor some days)!

 

On 10/21/2020 at 9:04 AM, g33k said:

Not a fan of finding ways to nerf the Lie spell.

Eurmali are f'ing dangerous.  There's a reason for all the opprobrium heaped upon them.

Yep!

 

On 10/21/2020 at 10:16 AM, Psullie said:

believing something does not automatically result in acting on that belief 

 

This has strongly been pointed out, but it is still a great point.

On 10/21/2020 at 10:21 AM, Stephen L said:

Isn't the whole point of Eurmal to be ridiculous?

 

Isn/t it though. Or one could discuss the meaning and merit of Road Runner and Coyote sketches... like, why an anvil?

 

On 10/21/2020 at 10:42 AM, Rodney Dangerduck said:

I know that Greg famously said "Kill the Trickster".

 

Nope, BOND ‘EM!

 

Edited by Bill the barbarian

... remember, with a TARDIS, one is never late for breakfast!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Bill the barbarian said:
1 hour ago, Bill the barbarian said:

 

 

Isn/t it though. Or one could discuss the meaning and merit of Road Runner and Coyote sketches... like, why an anvil?

Ah yes, the Hallucinate spell, my old favorite. I called it the Roadrunner spell back in RQ2 days, when how it worked wasn't quite nailed down yet. You know, cast Hallucinate on that brick wall that there's an opening. You go through. The guy chasing you however...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 hours ago, Bill the barbarian said:

Isn/t it though. Or one could discuss the meaning and merit of Road Runner and Coyote sketches... like, why an anvil?

My original comment was opaque, apologies.

The point I was trying to make was, isn't it slightly ironic to be talking about game balance when we're talking about an Eurmal spell?

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 10/21/2020 at 5:42 PM, Rodney Dangerduck said:

GM must step in to control their actions

But not in an artificial way.

Just looking in the world around us makes it abundantly clear that lies and illusions are very, very dangerous (far more so than just in current politics).  I'm afraid history is full of horrific examples of what large numbers of people can do if they are made to believe something.  And, Eurmal being part of the Orlanthi mythology, this will be very well understood in Glorantha.

Now, imagine you've a party, perhaps getting on in the world, perhaps one of them is thane of apple lane.  If it gets about that he's got a tame Eurmal, with lie, that's a big threat to the stability of the tribe.  Next moot, when something important is being decided, the Thane could get up and speak, and the tribes decision could be based on a lie, and could set them on a disastrous path (Um, why are we chopping down Tarndisi's Grove, again.  Oh yes, the elves are our enemies, that explains why they're ambushing us!). It's not as if the political stability of the Colymar isn't fragile enough at the moment. Does Asborn want them as neighbours? Sure yes, I remember now, we agreed you could pasture your cattle there.  I'll just move my shrine.

If it were my campaign, with an Eurmal, they would have to understand that if it got out that they had lie or illusions, it was likely that the entire party would be run out of the tribe, or put under some cast iron leash (I'd struggle running more than a few adventures as Leika's lapdogs, without much say in things).  Anything an Eurmali does is going to have to be undetectable, otherwise they'll just be run out of town when the effect wear off.

On 10/21/2020 at 6:36 PM, Scorus said:

"You desperately desire to stab yourself in the heart over and over right now"

I agree with what you're saying (if I've understood!).  A belief I had suicidal tendencies wouldn't make me commit suicide, it would make me seek help immediately.  It might make me buy a remedy the trickster was selling.

Edited by Stephen L
give a sentence a subject, just to give the readers a chance of following it
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Perhaps one of the most powerful ways to use Lie would be to make people believe you're an authority figure that they don't dare disobey. "I'm the Red Emperor in disguise" may not be mind-control, but even completely unreasonable requests are likely to be granted by people who genuinely believe that this is the case.

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 hours ago, Stephen L said:

But not in an artificial way.

Just looking in the world around us makes it abundantly clear that lies and illusions are very, very dangerous (far more so than just in current politics).  I'm afraid history is full of horrific examples of what large numbers of people can do if they are made to believe something.  And, Eurmal being part of the Orlanthi mythology, this will be very well understood in Glorantha.

Now, imagine you've a party, perhaps getting on in the world, perhaps one of them is thane of apple lane.  If it gets about that he's got a tame Eurmal, with lie, that's a big threat to the stability of the tribe.  Next moot, when something important is being decided, the Thane could get up and speak, and the tribes decision could be based on a lie, and could set them on a disastrous path (Um, why are we chopping down Tarndisi's Grove, again.  Oh yes, the elves are our enemies, that explains why they're ambushing us!). It's not as if the political stability of the Colymar isn't fragile enough at the moment. Does Asborn want them as neighbours? Sure yes, I remember now, we agreed you could pasture your cattle there.  I'll just move my shrine.

If it were my campaign, with an Eurmal, they would have to understand that if it got out that they had lie or illusions, it was likely that the entire party would be run out of the tribe, or put under some cast iron leash (I'd struggle running more than a few adventures as Leika's lapdogs, without much say in things).  Anything an Eurmali does is going to have to be undetectable, otherwise they'll just be run out of town when the effect wear off.

I agree with what you're saying (if I've understood!).  A belief I had suicidal tendencies wouldn't make me commit suicide, it would make me seek help immediately.  It might make me buy a remedy the trickster was selling.

In our campaign, Leika brought in my Trickster apprentice shaman, who happens to be a cousin of hers and was raised together with the new Thane of Apple Lane, a Wind Lord she handed her cousin over to, after a few days bonded to Leika after he got back from solitary spying missions. OTOH, she is sending the party off to Pavis to check out this Argrath character... BTW, according to the official timeline, in a couple years Argrath is going to put *all* Tricksters in Sartar under his protection.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

In our RQ3 Dorastor Campaign, one of the PCs tried to heal the Chaotic Great Tree of Hellwood, but one of the Elves was a Trickster and cast lie, shouting "He's killed the Great Tree!" As the PC was a Death Lord of Zorak Zoran, he couldn't see that ending well and fought his way out. He spent the next few years making amends for killing the Great Tree and the Player believed that he had killed the Great Tree, until they went back and saw it alive and well.

  • Like 2
  • Haha 1

Simon Phipp - Caldmore Chameleon - Wallowing in my elitism since 1982. Many Systems, One Family. Just a fanboy. 

www.soltakss.com/index.html

Jonstown Compendium author. Find my contributions here

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 10/24/2020 at 3:55 AM, Stephen L said:

If it were my campaign, with an Eurmal, they would have to understand that if it got out that they had lie or illusions, it was likely that the entire party would be run out of the tribe, or put under some cast iron leash

I think that most people expect or suspect that Eurmalis have spells for lying or making illusions, because that's kinda what Eurmal is about. I mean, even Clever Tongue can be pretty powerful, without going into Lie, but is along the same lines. But if that's how people react in your Glorantha, I would expect Eurmalis to frequently be targeted preemptively by the people, forcing them to become a secret/hidden cult.

 

Ludovic aka Lordabdul -- read and listen to  The God Learners , the Gloranthan podcast, newsletter, & blog !

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, lordabdul said:

But if that's how people react in your Glorantha, I would expect Eurmalis to frequently be targeted preemptively by the people, forcing them to become a secret/hidden cult

Not the general reaction to Eurmal in my Glorantha, Eurmal are too random to have anything more than a fleeting agenda.  I was more wondering how the alliance of an Eurmali with a bunch of adventurers with unreliable motives (at the very least, if not down right murder hoboes) would go down politically. 

Let's just say I wouldn't want them as my neighbours...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 hours ago, Stephen L said:

I was more wondering how the alliance of an Eurmali with a bunch of adventurers with unreliable motives (at the very least, if not down right murder hoboes) would go down politically.

Somebody causing trouble around the tula (especially if it's somebody else's tula!) will get in trouble, Eurmali or not... murder hoboes (or, rather, murder tourists, which is more accurate) are not dealt with kindly around Dragon Pass or Prax. So if the whole party has unreliable motives, they will get run out of the area, or worse, regardless of whether they have an Eurmali in the party or not.

If, however, the party is doing OK things and it's just the Eurmali causing trouble by himself, I would probably:

  1. Have someone come up to the party and ask if anyone of them is the Eurmali's guardian. If so, they will be held accountable: given a warning, asked for compensation, brought in front of the chieftain for a judgment, or whatever else is appropriate given the trouble.
  2. If nobody is the guardian, the NPC might give a fair warning to the party ("I'll kill that idiot if he comes near the marketplace again!"), or even draw his sword and say "Fine, where is that bastard? I've got a word or two for him". Maybe even chastise the party: "You have a friggin' unbonded Trickster? What the Gods is wrong with you?!".

So yeah, the Eurmali can put the rest of the party in trouble... but that's not specific to Tricksters. There's a variety of other character concepts that might get the party kicked out or, at least, paying hefty sums to appease people.

Sartar Companion has a long cult write-up (in HQG form of course) of Eurmal, with a little warning at the beginning that Tricksters are hard to play right, and that players probably misunderstand the concept if they think it's only about playing gags and tricks and making jokes. There's also a mention that nobody in Sartar wants an unbonded Trickster around anyway.

Edited by lordabdul
  • Like 2

Ludovic aka Lordabdul -- read and listen to  The God Learners , the Gloranthan podcast, newsletter, & blog !

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 10/26/2020 at 9:16 AM, lordabdul said:

Somebody causing trouble around the tula (especially if it's somebody else's tula!) will get in trouble, Eurmali or not... murder hoboes (or, rather, murder tourists, which is more accurate) are not dealt with kindly around Dragon Pass or Prax. So if the whole party has unreliable motives, they will get run out of the area, or worse, regardless of whether they have an Eurmali in the party or not.

If, however, the party is doing OK things and it's just the Eurmali causing trouble by himself, I would probably:

  1. Have someone come up to the party and ask if anyone of them is the Eurmali's guardian. If so, they will be held accountable: given a warning, asked for compensation, brought in front of the chieftain for a judgment, or whatever else is appropriate given the trouble.
  2. If nobody is the guardian, the NPC might give a fair warning to the party ("I'll kill that idiot if he comes near the marketplace again!"), or even draw his sword and say "Fine, where is that bastard? I've got a word or two for him". Maybe even chastise the party: "You have a friggin' unbonded Trickster? What the Gods is wrong with you?!".

So yeah, the Eurmali can put the rest of the party in trouble... but that's not specific to Tricksters. There's a variety of other character concepts that might get the party kicked out or, at least, paying hefty sums to appease people.

Sartar Companion has a long cult write-up (in HQG form of course) of Eurmal, with a little warning at the beginning that Tricksters are hard to play right, and that players probably misunderstand the concept if they think it's only about playing gags and tricks and making jokes. There's also a mention that nobody in Sartar wants an unbonded Trickster around anyway.

Yes, any character type can cause problems for a party if played properly. Take Chalana Arroy, going on adventures with a party. What should a Chalana Arroy do when a party member tries to kill a bad guy if it isn't absolutely necessary? Cast Sleep on said party member of course.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

IMO, we've gotten a bit off topic.  Not a surprise!  🙂

In our party, the @GlorionEurmali is bonded mythically to a Wind Lord, and bonded culturally since he's cousin to some of the PCs.  The character has a high Honor and some Loyalties, so may actually behave a bit.  The Wind Lord's Sword Thane is a gruff Humakti who should give the trickster extra incentive to keep in line, while my Vingan, his cousin, is more "flexible with the Truth", but will try to direct the Eurmali's efforts in a positive, useful to the party direction.  This is about the "best" situation one could ever expect for a PC Eurmali.

The Lie spell is still broken and has been for 40+ years.

Putting it on the GM to "nerf" it, or find loopholes, seems to be the best suggestion.  I guess that's what we have to do.  Now that Initiates get reusable rune magic I fully expect the Eurmali to use Lie once or twice a season.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...