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Non-dwarven mining and quarrying?


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9 hours ago, Joerg said:

The silver mines in the foothills of the Stormwalk Mountains in Heortland are quite likely following veins of the metal into clefts and caves, and man-made tunnels into those rocks. The geology there starts with limestone but has tectonics beneath those layers - whether from Larnste stomping on Krarsht or from the sons of Veskarthen pushing up the surface from below to create their own peaks.

Is there a source/reference for such silver mines?  I don't recall ever seeing such noted.

9 hours ago, lordabdul said:

having Sartarite clans obtain most of their bronze and other ores from Heortland (along with whatever still active mines there are in Dragon Pass) would solve a lot of problems: these are trade routes that are quite far enough that the Lunars couldn't really disrupt them except for the short time they had control over the Holy Country (and so we can ignore this whole topic for most of the Lunar occupation and subsequent Hero Wars, and go back to having fun with heroquests and powerful magics and giant bats). Plus, it kinda makes sense since the people of Sartar and Heortland have some shared history and culture.

If there were though, then that would seem like something the Lunars would have exploited during their invasion.  Yet, the focal points of their invasion seem to be:  1) Karse with access to Nochet; 2) Durengard and perhaps Belintar's magic road (or perhaps the Jelenkev temple of knowledge).  If metals were the goal, it seems far more likely that we'd have seen this in the way the Lunar occupation occurred, and in ongoing trade efforts. 

This doesn't mean that there aren't supplies of bronze, etc. in Heortland - and the presence of Smithstone strongly suggests there is somewhere around the Marzeel valley - but we don't really know where.  

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3 hours ago, jajagappa said:

If metals were the goal, it seems far more likely that we'd have seen this in the way the Lunar occupation occurred, and in ongoing trade efforts. 

I don't think metals are ever the goal. This is Glorantha after all, so the mysticism and mythological always come first. The rest is just gravy.

What I'm saying is that the Lunars' rule over southern Sartar and the Holy Country was short enough that, while they may have controlled the mines there for a bit (I don't think they needed them though), they were pretty soon out of reach of them. This means that for the rest of their Sartarite campaigns, cutting off metal supplies from the rebellion wasn't an option, which means we don't need to diverge from canon much, if at all (if we ever wanted to).

What it does open up however, are adventures where the PCs need to go to Hendrikiland or something to strengthen or rekindle relationships with allies that can provide raw materials or manufactured gear to, say, Kallyr (in pre-1625) or possibly Argrath (in post-1625)... Argrath probably doesn't need it much, but it can be an interesting avenue of storytelling for Kallyr's rebellion. Would I rather serve Kallyr by going on missions retrieving magical items, killing monsters to fulfill ancient prophecies, spying on Lunar deployments, doing heroquests, exploring ruins, and so on? Sure! But I would also like doing other things too! I think that being part of Kallyr's rebellion needs a sense of desperation and recklessness (pre-1625), and being low on resources (damaged armours and shields, too few arrows, etc.) is a big part of it. An adventure or two trying to secure new gear would fit well IMHO. This is less applicable post-1625, however, which is the default RQG setting.

Edited by lordabdul
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Post-Dragonrise, of course, there are major political disruptions that would also call tributary relationships between mines and tribes and kingdoms into question, leaving room for missions to reestablish those relationships, or find cash reserves, or renegotiate the terms. And of course one of the simplest ways to make good is to defend the little mining town from bandits, or perhaps to orchestrate the downfall of the corrupt, greedy nobles and the brutal gang that war for control of the mine by strategically switching sides, or clearing out some krarshtkids...

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5 hours ago, jajagappa said:
15 hours ago, Joerg said:

The silver mines in the foothills of the Stormwalk Mountains in Heortland are quite likely following veins of the metal into clefts and caves, and man-made tunnels into those rocks. The geology there starts with limestone but has tectonics beneath those layers - whether from Larnste stomping on Krarsht or from the sons of Veskarthen pushing up the surface from below to create their own peaks.

Is there a source/reference for such silver mines?  I don't recall ever seeing such noted.

They came up talking to someone with better access to Greg's documents than I have - I know for sure I didn't invent those, and I remember I had to rationalize the presence of star folk bones in the region. Not too hard, though, given the archer demons at the Batte of Aurochs Hills.

I am sure it came up in earlier discussions on metals and mining.

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4 hours ago, Eff said:

Post-Dragonrise, of course, there are major political disruptions that would also call tributary relationships between mines and tribes and kingdoms into question, leaving room for missions to reestablish those relationships, or find cash reserves, or renegotiate the terms.

Nice ideas for some adventures, thanks! This kind of adventure is nice because it can always feed back directly into the clan's fortunes or misfortunes, which the GM can then use to build up how the adventurers and their community rise and fall within their tribe/confederation/kingdom.

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7 hours ago, lordabdul said:

the Lunars' rule over southern Sartar and the Holy Country was short enough that, while they may have controlled the mines there for a bit (I don't think they needed them though), they were pretty soon out of reach of them.

I just don't see the particular evidence for metals/mines in Heortland (aside from the presence of Smithstone).  

5 hours ago, Joerg said:

They came up talking to someone with better access to Greg's documents than I have

It's just nothing that I recall seeing to date as ever published or noted.  The myths don't speak of any major god time battles (except maybe below the Heortland cliffs vs. the sea gods) that would leave god bones.  The mountains seem to either have been raised by Larnste's stomp or have something of an Earth origin (subsequently taken by the Storm gods).  And the trade route through Heortland doesn't overly suggest anything either.  

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8 hours ago, lordabdul said:

Sure, I don't know, I'm just going along with the idea that was proposed :)  Where would you place active mines instead?

I like the idea, too - what I'm really trying to 'dig out' is whether there is anything published or written by Greg that indicates or suggests any metals (and if so of what type) in the Storm Mountains.  

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On 11/2/2020 at 5:26 AM, jajagappa said:

I like the idea, too - what I'm really trying to 'dig out' is whether there is anything published or written by Greg that indicates or suggests any metals (and if so of what type) in the Storm Mountains.  

I would ask -- are the Storm Mountains formed (in part or whole) by the corpses of fallen deities?

If so, then I ask:

  1. do they represent fallen Storm deities?  which would make some sense!
  2. do they represent fallen Earth deities?  which would make another kind of sense
  3. do they represent both (1) & (2)?  and is the "most sensible" of all ???
  4. do they represent the foes of fallen Storm and/or Earth deities?  And if so, which one(s)?
  5. are they a vast burial-mound for all of the above?  which would make them among the most-varied in all Glorantha, AFAIK

Or do they not have any fallen deities at all (in which case... probably not much metal).

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1 hour ago, g33k said:

I would ask -- are the Storm Mountains formed (in part or whole) by the corpses of fallen deities?

If so, then I ask:

  1. do they represent fallen Storm deities?  which would make some sense!
  2. do they represent fallen Earth deities?  which would make another kind of sense
  3. do they represent both (1) & (2)?  and is the "most sensible" of all ???
  4. do they represent the foes of fallen Storm and/or Earth deities?  And if so, which one(s)?
  5. are they a vast burial-mound for all of the above?  which would make them among the most-varied in all Glorantha, AFAIK

Or do they not have any fallen deities at all (in which case... probably not much metal).

There is an old essay by me on the geology of the Storm Mountains that should give a lot of my answers to your questions.

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7 hours ago, g33k said:

I would ask -- are the Storm Mountains formed (in part or whole) by the corpses of fallen deities?

If so, then I ask:

  1. do they represent fallen Storm deities?  which would make some sense!
  2. do they represent fallen Earth deities?  which would make another kind of sense
  3. do they represent both (1) & (2)?  and is the "most sensible" of all ???
  4. do they represent the foes of fallen Storm and/or Earth deities?  And if so, which one(s)?
  5. are they a vast burial-mound for all of the above?  which would make them among the most-varied in all Glorantha, AFAIK

Or do they not have any fallen deities at all (in which case... probably not much metal).

Even before reading Joerg's essay (which I don't know how much aligns with published material), I believe the canonical story of Stormwalk Mountain is that it was a giant that got its head twisted off by Storm Bull.

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8 hours ago, g33k said:

I would ask -- are the Storm Mountains formed (in part or whole) by the corpses of fallen deities?

If so, then I ask:

  1. do they represent fallen Storm deities?  which would make some sense!
  2. do they represent fallen Earth deities?  which would make another kind of sense
  3. do they represent both (1) & (2)?  and is the "most sensible" of all ???
  4. do they represent the foes of fallen Storm and/or Earth deities?  And if so, which one(s)?
  5. are they a vast burial-mound for all of the above?  which would make them among the most-varied in all Glorantha, AFAIK

Or do they not have any fallen deities at all (in which case... probably not much metal).

The Guide p.258 doesn't provide a lot of detail, except that Storm Bull fought a Mountain God and twisted him into a spiral shape.

"Storm Mountains: These formidable crags rise abruptly from the Heortland Plateau, separating it from Prax. Forests cover their upper slopes. Several clans of Wind Children live in aeries which cluster about the steep peaks and cliff faces of these mountains.
Stormwalk Mountain: The largest peak of the Storm Mountains, Stormwalk is one of the Great Sacred Mountains of the Orlanthi. Urox the Storm Bull took a mountain god and twisted its head off, and the mountain is the body." - that suggests Earth gods defeated by Air, though less of the actual origin.

However p.234 notes "When Chaos came into the world, Larnste the Mover saw a squirming thing twisting its way through the land. He tried to stamp it out, making a great dent in the earth. The impact of his stamp raised the Storm Mountains, yet he did not kill the Chaos thing." - so that is one origin, displaced Earth.

Thunder Rebels p.15 (a less canonical source) noted: "Stormwalk was a rock monster, a foe of our ancestors,..." and "Urox raised the other Storm Mountains to prevent a fight between his friends Tada and Vingkot." - here's another origin, though not explicitly how Storm Bull raised them (children of Storm and Earth?), though at least Stormwalk was an Earth god.

Heortling Myth p.43: "Fourth is Stormwalk. It was a foe, the Rock Lord" - consistent reference of this as an Earth god.  However, there's no other reference to the Storm Mountains in here.

RQ Companion p.27 also notes the Larnste origin: "When Chaos came into the world, Larnste, the Walker, saw a squirming thing twisting its way through the world. He tried to stamp it out, making a great dent in the earth. The impact of his stamp raised the Storm Mountains"

And p.33: "East of the farmlands rise low wooded hills, then a steep range called the Storm Mountains. Most prominent among them is Stormwalk, where the Storm Bull supposedly resides at times. The rugged nature of this land prevents passage between Heortland and Prax, which lies on the far side of the Storm Mountains."  - no origin, just a steep range that's difficult to cross.

So, back to your options:

  • do they represent fallen Storm deities?  which would make some sense! 
    • no indication of this, but Storm deities may have fallen upon them
  • do they represent fallen Earth deities?  which would make another kind of sense
    • at least one - so there could be some copper there; but also the most sacred of the mountains
    • the Larnste stories are the only real "origin" story for the range - displaced earth, so presumably displaced Earth deities?
  • do they represent both (1) & (2)?  and is the "most sensible" of all ???
    • mostly (2) based on existing texts
  • do they represent the foes of fallen Storm and/or Earth deities?  And if so, which one(s)?
    • the Flood of the Sea gods should have approached (perhaps surrounded?) these mountains (unless the mountains came later) - there were a lot of battles between Storm and Sea, so possibly you might have Sea gods clawing at the mountains to tear down and Storm gods dwelling atop and striking back - that would mean some sea-metal and some bronze
    • Star gods - further north you get the Red Archers of the Auroch Hills or the Cinder Pits of the Starfire Ridges.  No references to similar here.  But Garan Low-star fell near Whitewall (Garanstone) to aid Vingkot's kin and found the Star tribe.  A little bit of star metal/silver perhaps around the Finovan Hills?
    • no Sun gods referenced around here, so no suggestions of gold
    • no Darkness gods references around here, though the Shadow Plateau is not that distant and the Kitori Woods abuts the Storm Mountains - are the Kitori/trolls possibly mining something? It's a possibility, but probably not lead
    • and we don't know the forgotten deity of God Forgot (a Moon deity?) - there could be some forgotten legend of such crawling up to the mountains south of Stormwalk to die, or perhaps just some vein of silver is all that is left of such a deity?
  • are they a vast burial-mound for all of the above?  which would make them among the most-varied in all Glorantha, AFAIK
    • possibly Larnste's Footprint buried other underlying Earth gods so that you get displaced Earth gods atop other Earth gods?
  • Or do they not have any fallen deities at all (in which case... probably not much metal).
    • There's no strong suggestion, hence my inclination that there is little metal, or whatever there is happens to be hard to get to. 

My thoughts: maybe some copper, used by the redsmiths of Smithstone; maybe some natural bronze, though near the surface and perhaps mined out centuries before; bits of sea-metal, though that is more likely buried within the sediment of the Heortland Plateau; possibly some bits of star silver on mountain peaks, or a vein of silver in the south.

 

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