RQG sorcery & other magics (rant)

[Lordabdul]

6 hours ago, Jape_Vicho said:

I don't get why some of you say sorcery isn't powerful in the lore

I don't think anybody is saying that. Sorcerers actually tend to be super bad-ass and super powerful. I think what we're saying is that sorcerers don't routinely improvise spells on the go. I think they go adventuring with a whole bunch of stuff prepared in advance. IMO, "battle wizards" tend to have an arsenal of trinkets and artifacts that contain monstrous spells prepared and grown over days and weeks and months, ready to be unleashed on unsuspecting enemies. And don't forget Lunar magic benefits from the glowspots. Of course, YGMV and all that jazz.

5 hours ago, icebrand said:

"Better" may be relative, but you are giving me an abstract idea that doesnt help. The sorcery in RQG, as it is, is much weaker than in RQ3

A quick look in my RQ3 books seems to indicate they basically divided a whole bunch of stuff by two in RQG. Duration starts twice shorter than in RQ3, manipulation takes twice longer (2 SR per MP), and so on. So yes, it looks like RQG nerfed it, very much on purpose. I could be wrong, but I suspect it is to "force" sorcerers to prepare stuff in advance instead of improvising it in the heat of moment. My suspicion is mostly based on the presence of a non-negligible "Sympathetic Magic" section in RQG, which gives advantages in preparing spells.

I understand it's a big change in terms of gameplay, especially if your vision of Glorantha doesn't support it. Just keep the RQ3 rules. I don't think anybody will change their minds here. But you shouldn't feel too alone, there's a fair number of RQ3 holdouts around here.

Quote

If i spend 3 rounds casting a spell, i expect a battle-ending, world shattering spell, not "+2d6 damage" or whatever.

See, that's a good example where my Glorantha and gameplay expectation differs. I don't expect that, in a mythical world, some logician sorcerer can end a battle in 3 rounds of improvised casting, while someone who can invoke the power of gods cannot. It should take more work than that. Alchemists prepare powerful potions during long nights of experimenting, not by being bartenders assembling a cocktail in 30 seconds. And like I said, I envision Gloranthan sorcerers more like alchemists, not like Magic-Missile-wielding D&D wizards. The rules are only wrong if they don't match the setting, so maybe you have a problem with the setting.

I'll leave it to other people to argue whether the RQG rules actually match what we know of Gloranthan canon, or if they're actually broken in that sense.

Edited November 12, 2020 by lordabdul

[David Scott]

11 hours ago, icebrand said:

Yes, my sorcerers do that too. But they also cast spells. I cant tell a guy who has 210% evoke fire (form/set fire in RQ3) that his favorite spell is completely useless.

11 hours ago, icebrand said:

Yeah the problem is that the main PC sorcerer is a Hrestoli magus. He has been playing the character since 1997 (not on the reg anymore). He always explored hostile territory and fought stuff, he wasnt a magical gadgeteer, sorcerers never were, not in RQ3, not in Gods of Glorantha, and not in HeroWars/HeroQuest. This is a radical departure of what gloranthan sorcery ever was.

Moving this forward. The sorcery depicted by RQ3 was never the Gloranthan sorcery that Greg wanted. As we were preparing the Guide, we started to go through his notes in detail that we now had access to. The West of his early unpublished writing became apparent and one of the key documents we found was the Xeotam Dialogues: https://wellofdaliath.chaosium.com/for-understanding-the-malkioni-approach-to-sorcery-runes-and-gods-the-xeotam-dialogues-written-by/

Ultimately the sorcery of RQ3 will never completely mesh with that of RQG, however you might want to consider:

• Allowing precasting into an object, so evoke fire (just keep the name) could be stored ready to use in a ring for example and cast on DEXSR plus the usual (RQG and RQ3) plus magic points per SR. Keep it simple Perhaps limit the number of precasts by some factor, and make it a ritual that costs the amount of Free Int in ours so the adventurer has to spend down time doing wizardly things.
• Just let them have Mastery of the revelant runes and techniques.
• Just adapt the spells, go through with your player and decide what fits. My players make up spells all the time.
• Sorcery has not been fully explored yet. You can easily adapt what you have.

Keep using RQ3 Sorcery, it won't make a difference, except the 10 / 12 SR difference (maybe)

4 hours ago, Bill the barbarian said:

I had a great time playing rolling and running sorcerers in RQ3.

I did too, we initially tested the RQ3 sorcery rules by creating four troll rune levels and doing Snake pipe Hollow. I had an Arkati sorcery who's main weapon was a staff of darkness (form set darkenss) with damage boosting on it. It was still a tough adventure.

While I'm sympathetic to problems converting older characters, I'd either just not change or compromise in the conversion. Ultimately is the balance of change worth the effort. In other games, I'm still playing Exalted 2 not 3, Star Wars D6 not whatever the latest version is, MegaTraveller not 5th Ed, it took me 5 years to upgrade to CoC 7th from 4th, etc.

[coffeemancer]

our sorcerer does two things: boost his skills and steal breath.

steal breath is kinda OP in my opinion... 

Edited November 12, 2020 by coffeemancer
got my breath stolen

[tnli]

Interesting idea on pre-cast spells, a ritual that take hours equal to the intensity of the spell, and maybe each pre-cast spell takes a point of Free INT untill released or dismissed? 

Would you pay the MP cost when doing the ritual, or at the time of releasing the spell? When would you roll for it? How long would it take to release the spell? DEX SR + Intensity SR? 

Speaking on empowering the sorcerers, I've been thinking on maybe allowing a sorcerer to claim an Inscription taken from another sorcerer as their own. I figure it would take a season's worth of study to claim it, and require the would-be-owner to fulfill all the requirements of making the Inscription (like mastery of each rune and technique of the spell) and to sacrifice a point of POW to claim the Inscription as their own. A roll would likely also be included, maybe opposed spell roll against the previous owners spell skill, or POW vs. POW, or something. Ideas? 

[Joerg]

12 hours ago, icebrand said:

Yeah the problem is that the main PC sorcerer is a Hrestoli magus.

A Hrestoli magus - are we talking Loskalmi New Hrestoli here, or classical Seshnegi and Ralian Hrestoli?

A Loskalmi magus would be at least a passable swordsman and rider, and would usually be able use weapon augments on himself as he would do on the units he serves with - at least in my understanding of Loskalm.

Loskalmi men-of-all and sorcerers have two modes - serving their community, or taking on a quest to further their individual advancement, in a spiritual way more than in terms of loot. Their material needs are covered by their state/society, they don't really own what they carry or wear, and what they bring back from their quests may be given for them to carry, or may be used by some other deserving man-of-all or sorcerer. Think Star Trek confederation officers in terms of "acquisitions".

Linealist Hrestoli have a hereditary sorcerer caste. A Linealist Hrestoli sorcerer has the option but not at all the obligation to become a man-of-all. If the sorcerer wants to be able to defend himself in a pinch or to make camp without waiting for a servant to do everything, he should take the man-of-all route, though. Adventuring without that can be tedious.

But let's assume that the Hrestoli sorcerer opted to outsource all menial tasks as well as all combat. What magics did a RQ3 sorcerer have to cast effective sorcery spells on the fly? Effectively the same he still has - Command <species> on bound critters, whether in crystals/matrices or in beasts. In RQ3, stuff like Palsy or Smother were nice in multispell, against the odds scattered attacks if you want to finish the incantation in the same melee round. In RQ3, you also had a familiar.

Unless you used Sandy's vows and blessings rules.

None of that translates well into RQG, except for the bound critters. But then, the RQ3 rules weren't really suited to play Malkioni mages, as Arlaten from Strangers in Prax proves rather than contradicts. The Griffin Island Halcyon var Enkorth was a warlock. Some of the sorcerers presented in fan publications who combined rune magic and sorcery were similar.

It takes some form of illumination, access to a wyter and a good dose of crazy to become such a sorcerer.

 

 

 

12 hours ago, icebrand said:

He has been playing the character since 1997 (not on the reg anymore). He always explored hostile territory and fought stuff, he wasnt a magical gadgeteer, sorcerers never were, not in RQ3, not in Gods of Glorantha, and not in HeroWars/HeroQuest. This is a radical departure of what gloranthan sorcery ever was.

If your RQ3+ campaign managed to produce a believable Hrestoli sorcerer, more power to you, and would you share that character sheet?

Gloranthan sorcery in RuneQuest - we saw a few attempts at that.

One was the attempt at RQ4 Adventures in Glorantha, created for Avalon Hill by the "Gang of Four", which made it into a workable set of playtest rules. Unfortunately, it didn't quite get Greg Stafford's approval at the time.

Another attempt was Sandy Petersen's system of vows and blessings.

Paul Reilly was using a runic sorcery system, apparently loosely based on Ars Magica, but that never saw any form of publication.

Mongoose offered a sorcery system and applied it to their Second Age setting, but MRQ1 mistakenly applied the runes to Battle Magic rather than sorcery, missing that opportunity to get it somewhat right. I know that people had fun with that, but I don't know how well it reflected Glorantha - from what I know, Greg Stafford never checked whether those products fit his vision. The only product which had his direct input was "Dara Happa Stirs", arguably the high point of MRQ publications for Glorantha.

 

Outside of RuneQuest, we received a different approach to Gloranthan sorcery in Hero Wars and HeroQuest 1 and 2/Glorantha.

HW and HQ1 worked on the basis of Revealed Mythologies and The Missing Lands, with the Malkioni having something like a church with liturgists and officiating wizards, and with sorcery coming in grimoires and scripture. RQG has yet to come up with a parallel to the grimoires that even HQ2/HQG used

HQG and RQG use the same six sorcerous Techniques. The limitations of a HQG sorcerer are different from those of a RuneQuest character, though.

 

So, what has Gloranthan sorcery ever been?

All sources agree that Gloranthan sorcery uses distinct spells. Each combination of runes, techniques and possibly other qualifiers results in a spell. There is no evidence for improvised spells - all spells need research, in HQ1 even manifestation of an intellectual node in the spell plane - an abstract network of energies sorcerers could explore and interact with through meditative questing, where the spell would be the process of channeling and assigning energies to the various principles involved (and Gloranthan principles more often than not equal runes). Not unlike the concept behind the movie Tron, or object-oriented programming.

Sorcery spells tend to be rather rigid in their effects, although targeting conditions and energy assignment give the sorcerer quite a few bits to play with. Misapplied targets work but take a multiple of energies - something well documented in RQG sorcery.

Sorcery should use runes. The Jrusteli - some of the most accomplished sorcerers in the history of Glorantha - used something called the RuneQuest Sight to make their sorcery so powerful.

Zzabur is the Brithini sorcerer supreme. Against him stood the collective of Vadeli sorcerers, who were winning the war until Zzabur surprised them and their Mostali allies by breaking the world.

All of this ultra-powerful sorcery is usually outside the scope of individual player character sorcerers, although they may be asked to contribute to such magics.

 

12 hours ago, icebrand said:

My latest personal character was a Black Horse county mercenary. Am i supposed to not use magic again? Do i need mercenary hirelings for my mercenary character?

What write-up of Black Horse County did you use for creating that character? Was he a human rider who had overcome his demon steed? There are only a few of these around, most Black Horse trooper humans are the familiars of their steeds. The steeds use their innate Underworld magic. What magic the few self-determined riders use isn't quite clear, but their command over the steed gives them access to the steed's innate magic.

[Runeblogger]

1 hour ago, David Scott said:

• Allowing precasting into an object, so evoke fire (just keep the name) could be stored ready to use in a ring for example and cast on DEXSR plus the usual (RQG and RQ3) plus magic points per SR. Keep it simple Perhaps limit the number of precasts by some factor, and make it a ritual that costs the amount of Free Int in ours so the adventurer has to spend down time doing wizardly things.
• Just let them have Mastery of the revelant runes and techniques.

From the Xeotam Dialogues:

Quote

by the end of his training he still needed the help of amulets of Power to focus and hold the elements.

and 

Quote

Items such as amulets, charts, talismans, and so on, are dedicated to either a god or a Power and help the sorcerer focus more easily.

I also think precasting is a great idea. Sorcerers could enchant talismans by sacrificing POW to hold precast spells the same way they can inscribe spells. These precast spells could go off at SR-DEX, but once you have cast them, you need to precast them again into the item to recharge it.

More powerful sorcerers could have familiar-like talismans that also cost POW to create, but which could "know" new techniques and even runes for them, so they can cast a larger variety of spells. I guess they could also sacrifice POW into items to create items that provide sympathetic bonus to some spells.

And the same way mastering the Fire rune can provide a huge bonus to INT, having the Movement rune inscribed in an item could allow the sorcerer to halve the time it takes to cast any spell.

 

 

Edited November 12, 2020 by Runeblogger

[Jape_Vicho]

3 hours ago, lordabdul said:

I don't think anybody is saying that. Sorcerers actually tend to be super bad-ass and super powerful. I think what we're saying is that sorcerers don't routinely improvise spells on the go. I think they go adventuring with a whole bunch of stuff prepared in advance. IMO, "battle wizards" tend to have an arsenal of trinkets and artifacts that contain monstrous spells prepared and grown over days and weeks and months, ready to be unleashed on unsuspecting enemies. And don't forget Lunar magic benefits from the glowspots. Of course, YGMV and all that jazz.

By "powerful" I meant combat powerful, that is what I understood from some comments, that sorcerers weren't as combat powerful as priests or shamans. But yeah your argument sounds reasonable. 

[Guest Vile Traveller]

Hey there, icebrand! 😎

I'm one of those "few" who never had a problem with the RQ3 sorcery rules, we had long campaigns featuring sorcerers at all power levels and never felt the need to fix anything. In your place I would just keep right on going with your house rules unless there's an overwhelming clamour from your players to switch.

And seriously, if you're going to add (rant) to your thread title you should come in with much more ranting and shouting, and maybe some ALL CAPS. 😜

[Jeff]

Sorcery is "combat powerful" IF you've prepared ahead of time. Give them enough time to prepare and enough of them working together and they can do absurd things like summon Fire in Water, or force a god to reveal its secrets, etc. It bears little or no resemblance to what was presented in RQ3 or in HW. Most sorcerers have relatively low skills in many spells (and take advantage of inscription and memory palaces to maximise their ability to manipulate spells) and rely on ceremonies and sympathetic magic to boost their chance of casting the spell.

In Dragon Pass and the Holy Country, sorcery is mainly associated with the Lhankor Mhy or Irrippi Ontor cults, and is largely about knowledge acquisition. So spells like Geomancy or Reveal Rune, that sort of thing. I've found it is incredibly useful, especially when paired with spells like Analyze Magic or Clairvoyance. These magicians tend to be more or less dilettantes when it comes to sorcery, dabbling a little bit in it, but not able to set up really powerful spells.  

In the Far West, sorcerers have established a social system (in partnership with the nobility) that grants them access to hundreds of magic points, and lets them spend their time studying or performing ceremonies. The price for this is they have to cast a substantial part of their magic on long-term spells that aid the rulers in war and other pursuits. Elsewhere (such as Safelster), sorcerers are acknowledged as powerful but must compromise with other temples for protection and support.

[Joerg]

10 hours ago, Jape_Vicho said:

I don't get why some of you say sorcery isn't powerful in the lore, isn't the lunar college of magic a sorcery school?

Yes and no. The Lunar Colleges of Magic perform Lunar magic, subject to the Lunar cycles, and all that, which makes it rather clear that their power source is different from what Malkioni or Lhankor Mhy sorcerers use. There are sorcerers in the colleges, and their contributions to the military magics may be crucial, but the spirits called forth on the battlefield are not a sorcerous effect.

 

10 hours ago, Jape_Vicho said:

And on the field they are said to be like one of the most terrible military units on all Glorantha, only able to be magically fought when Argrath creates his own sorcery school. Also I think the westerners have pretty powerful field sorcerer units too, Sir Narib was one of them, if I'm not mistaken.

Sir Narib is actually one of the sources for Argrath's countermeasures. His battlefield manifestation is a vaguely leonine demon which semi-manifests to attack in something like area effect spirit combat. I haven't seen this magic described from the receiving end of a normal foot soldier, yet.

 

10 hours ago, Jape_Vicho said:

I have always imagined the sorcery as by far the hardest of the 3 magical arts to master, and perhaps the less directly offensive, but in my mind a well learned and disciplined sorcerer is able to do things rune lords or great shamans cannot even imagine, given the freedom and boundless power that sorcery gives. 

That's pretty much Gloranthan canon, at least as long as the theists refrain from breaking the Compromise.

Sandy Petersen's take on the Malkioni in The Gods War is pretty close to what I perceive as the Gloranthan canon, too. Sending lesser gods into combat is what battle sorcerers do, see Sir Narib above.

 

10 hours ago, Jape_Vicho said:

Also I too find weird that loskami do that kind of criptogodlearner kinda things, but well, you know what the rokari say, hrestolism was at fault for the creation of that philosophical monster all along. 

The Rokari are people who edit the Word of God. That's like cherry-picking from the constitution, and disregarding the rest.

Wrestling and conversing with lesser deities and demons to master their powers while having received boosts by the full-time sorcerers is what already Hrestol did to deal with the ancestral deity of the Pendali lionmen.

I don't mind there being ways for Hrestoli men-of-all to use well-documented quests to obtain some form of divine magic. I do wonder how they acquire and regain rune power, though - are all those quest rewards one-use spells, or do Hrestoli men-of-all sacrifice power or offer worship? Do they regain rune spells via pilgrimage or similar "ultra-light heroquesting"?

The Rokari nobles and sergeants are crypto-theists with their warrior societies.

 

I still think that the original approach to Hrestolism, with gradual sorcerous training, and the existence of sorcery spells performed as rituals by non(-full-time)-sorcerers like Dormal's Open Seas should be a thing in canonical Glorantha. They will certainly feature in my Glorantha. Men-of-all learn the basics of sorcery, like Arkat did. Siglat's reforms at least require the men-of-all to be sufficiently literate to be able to start learning sorcery if they want to advance to the next rank. People like Gundreken, Meriatan or Siglat himself all are sorcerers - not dedicated magi, but people who have practical experience casting sorcery spells. The (whatever Grand Knights are called nowadays) all have learned the minimal basics of sorcery.

The same goes for non-Loskalmi men-of-all, excluding the sorry excuse that Tanisoran combat nobility provides and that has been copied by some of the Safelstrans. At the very least, they advance to have a perception of the magical world by sorcerous spells of their own.

[tnli]

1 hour ago, Runeblogger said:

From the Xeotam Dialogues:

and 

I also think precasting is a great idea. Sorcerers could enchant talismans by sacrificing POW to hold precast spells the same way they can inscribe spells. These precast spells could go off at SR-DEX, but once you have cast them, you need to precast them again into the item to recharge it.

More powerful sorcerers could have familiar-like talismans that also cost POW to create, but which could "know" new techniques and even runes for them, so they can cast a larger variety of spells. I guess they could also sacrifice POW into items to create items that provide sympathetic bonus to some spells.

And the same way mastering the Fire rune can provide a huge bonus to INT, having the Movement rune inscribed in an item could allow the sorcerer to halve the time it takes to cast any spell.

 

 

So, essentially these pre-casting talismans that you imagine would be like Rune Spell Matrices, except that instead of it recharging in a worship ritual, it is recharged by re-casting the spell into it? 

Neat take on the idea! 

Edit: If anyone could then cast the pre-cast spell from the talisman, this would enable the sorcerer to lend a part of their power to their underlings! 

Edited November 12, 2020 by tnli

[soltakss]

10 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

12 hours ago, icebrand said:

So, i am to tell my sorcerer PC that has been playing since 1997 that his magus is now useless in combat and "standard" runelords (i.e. not heroes) that he used to destroy now can wipe the floor with him?

Of course not. Anyone who's been running RQ as long as you have should have no problem adapting RQ3 sorcerers into RQG. At the bare minimum you could just keep using the RQ3 sorcery rules for that character, why not? The RQG core rules are for new adventurers. It claims some compatibility with RQ2, but not RQ3 which was very much a compromise and went in several directions that turned out to be bad ideas. Some great stuff, and I personally love the RQ3 sorcery, but it was never all that popular.

Any adapting of a PC has to be done carefully. 

Version changes alwaymess up existing PCs and it is sometimes difficult to convert them. 

 

[Joerg]

 

13 hours ago, icebrand said:

"The Loskalmi army is one of the best in the world. It is professional, motivated, well equipped and magically powerful."

Glorantha: Genertela, Crucible of the Hero Wars, Genertela book, page 11 (emphasis mine). Has this been Gregged? Do you have a source for their weakness and compromises? Is there a source for the heroquesting stuff?

Verbatim the same in the Guide to Glorantha, p.205, so no, this has not been Gregged.

I second the observation that this statement does not mention sorcery in any way.

The Xeotam Dialogues are the published semi-deep source for Malkioni sorcery.

The source for men-of-all heroquesting is basically Hrestol's Saga, where the protagonist - a talar caste Malkioni of impeccable standing and experienced in commanding soldiers and wizards in the field - undergoes training in the tasks of the other three castes, learning the way of the warrior, of the commoner (like animal care, crafting at least to the point where he can make field repairs, cooking) and the wizard (literacy, magical theory, magical perception - the latter through ritual, which is another word for spells).

But then, the Malkioni of Hrestol's time were a henotheist bunch similar to Waertagi practices. That changed a century later, when the Seshnegi became rabidly monotheistic, and imposed that on other Malkioni - though with greater distance, not with lasting success.

 

13 hours ago, icebrand said:

My only real dislikes with the system are rolling dice to cast magic (RQ2 FTW) and the sorcery rules (which are not getting used as they are, i think my sorcerers would literally hit me with a chair if i nerfed them like that LOL)

That means that you already have a working solution for your ongoing games.

Making magic an automatic success is (at least to me) a radical departure from RuneQuest. Even Divine Magic in RQ3 (Rune Magic in RQ2) had a 5% chance of misfiring.

Hanging the non-elemental cults off a subset of the opposed runes that double as character-traits is nerfing those cults: All Lightbringers other than Orlanth, Humakt, Donandar and similar cultists either stop being self-determined human beings pulling the opposed traits of the runes they are using for their cult magic down to 5% or their magic becomes highly unreliable. 

Sorcery has always been presented as starting with ridiculously low casting chances upon learning (or researching/creating) a spell. The binary approach to having mastered a rune or a technique takes the additional limiter of the manipulation skills that RQ3 used out of the picture, while limiting the aspiring sorcerer in other ways.

13 hours ago, icebrand said:

Jeff's comments here on this site.   Nothing has been published. 

Nothing has been published as RuneQuest-related rules material. But then, RQG has a "backlog" on all kinds of theistic magics, too, and a backlog on the presentation of the setting in urban and suburban Sartar.

 

13 hours ago, icebrand said:

YGWV (and his) i guess. We tend to take published sources as cannon and go from there,

Everybody does. And how RuneQuest describes Glorantha is not necessary the whole truth of the world. RuneQuest - Roleplaying in Glorantha is one approach - currently the favored one by Chaosium. But there are other approaches that may have perspectives at rather different angles, with different solutions. The Thirteenth Age in Glorantha approach bends those rules to approximate canonical Glorantha, while at the same time distancing itself from anything produced so far, voluntarily going off in different angles of undiscovered futures.

The HeroQuest Glorantha approach is a lot less rules-rigid than either its predecessor HQ1 or any form of RuneQuest.

 

13 hours ago, icebrand said:

EDIT: i find completely out of character for Loskalmi to cheat on heroquests to gain spells from other magic systems. If a PC of mine did that the church would most definitely excomulgate him.

"Cheating on heroquests" is a very unfortunate phrasing.

Everybody "cheats" when preparing themselves for a heroquest. Gloranthan questers bring "metagame knowledge" into their quests - they enter with the expectation of something almost like a liturgy, and better have prepared rote reactions to all those stations they don't want to take any specific advantage from other than getting to the stations where they want to reap rewards.

IMO the difference of Malkioni men-of-all going on such quests is that they do it as third-person questers rather than as first-person "looking through the eyes of my deity" questers as theists are wont to do. This isn't entirely alien to theist heroquesters - they too can reap rewards from interaction with other deities pretty much like the men-of-all do, in a way reminiscent of associate cult spells. Where the theist questers bring their identification with their deity to bear, the Malkioni quester brings his magical preparation from the wizards' blessings to bear.

[tnli]

57 minutes ago, Jeff said:

Sorcery is "combat powerful" IF you've prepared ahead of time. Give them enough time to prepare and enough of them working together and they can do absurd things like summon Fire in Water, or force a god to reveal its secrets, etc. It bears little or no resemblance to what was presented in RQ3 or in HW. Most sorcerers have relatively low skills in many spells (and take advantage of inscription and memory palaces to maximise their ability to manipulate spells) and rely on ceremonies and sympathetic magic to boost their chance of casting the spell.

In Dragon Pass and the Holy Country, sorcery is mainly associated with the Lhankor Mhy or Irrippi Ontor cults, and is largely about knowledge acquisition. So spells like Geomancy or Reveal Rune, that sort of thing. I've found it is incredibly useful, especially when paired with spells like Analyze Magic or Clairvoyance. These magicians tend to be more or less dilettantes when it comes to sorcery, dabbling a little bit in it, but not able to set up really powerful spells.  

In the Far West, sorcerers have established a social system (in partnership with the nobility) that grants them access to hundreds of magic points, and lets them spend their time studying or performing ceremonies. The price for this is they have to cast a substantial part of their magic on long-term spells that aid the rulers in war and other pursuits. Elsewhere (such as Safelster), sorcerers are acknowledged as powerful but must compromise with other temples for protection and support.

As of now, there are no rules on how sorcerers could combine their casting efforts. Do you refer here to them casting separate spells and doing other things to help each other, or something like them casting the same spell together and manipulating the intensity of that spell by up to their total combined Free INT? 

[Anunnaki]

38 minutes ago, Joerg said:

15 hours ago, icebrand said:

My only real dislikes with the system are rolling dice to cast magic (RQ2 FTW) and the sorcery rules (which are not getting used as they are, i think my sorcerers would literally hit me with a chair if i nerfed them like that LOL)

That means that you already have a working solution for your ongoing games.

Making magic an automatic success is (at least to me) a radical departure from RuneQuest. Even Divine Magic in RQ3 (Rune Magic in RQ2) had a 5% chance of misfiring.

Slight Tangent:
RQ2 Battle Magic requires a roll to cast if there is no resistance roll required (see p.33 in the original "DID THE SPELL WORK" section and p.36 in Classic) but only fails on 96-00. RQ2 Rune Magic doesn't require a casting roll.

I would suggest that many players probably overlooked this or didn't bother with it as it's the last sentence in the first paragraph of that section noted above.

Bottom line is that rolling for Battle Magic casting, at least, has been in RuneQuest since RQ2 (I looked at RQ1 and this rule is not there). RQ3 simply ratified it for Spirit Magic and added a chance of failure for Divine Magic spells.

Back to your regular thread discussion on Sorcery.

Kind regards, James

Edited November 12, 2020 by Anunnaki

[icebrand]

42 minutes ago, Joerg said:

 

Verbatim the same in the Guide to Glorantha, p.205, so no, this has not been Gregged.

I second the observation that this statement does not mention sorcery in any way.

The Xeotam Dialogues are the published semi-deep source for Malkioni sorcery.

The source for men-of-all heroquesting is basically Hrestol's Saga, where the protagonist - a talar caste Malkioni of impeccable standing and experienced in commanding soldiers and wizards in the field - undergoes training in the tasks of the other three castes, learning the way of the warrior, of the commoner (like animal care, crafting at least to the point where he can make field repairs, cooking) and the wizard (literacy, magical theory, magical perception - the latter through ritual, which is another word for spells).

But then, the Malkioni of Hrestol's time were a henotheist bunch similar to Waertagi practices. That changed a century later, when the Seshnegi became rabidly monotheistic, and imposed that on other Malkioni - though with greater distance, not with lasting success.

 

That means that you already have a working solution for your ongoing games.

Making magic an automatic success is (at least to me) a radical departure from RuneQuest. Even Divine Magic in RQ3 (Rune Magic in RQ2) had a 5% chance of misfiring.

Hanging the non-elemental cults off a subset of the opposed runes that double as character-traits is nerfing those cults: All Lightbringers other than Orlanth, Humakt, Donandar and similar cultists either stop being self-determined human beings pulling the opposed traits of the runes they are using for their cult magic down to 5% or their magic becomes highly unreliable. 

Sorcery has always been presented as starting with ridiculously low casting chances upon learning (or researching/creating) a spell. The binary approach to having mastered a rune or a technique takes the additional limiter of the manipulation skills that RQ3 used out of the picture, while limiting the aspiring sorcerer in other ways.

Nothing has been published as RuneQuest-related rules material. But then, RQG has a "backlog" on all kinds of theistic magics, too, and a backlog on the presentation of the setting in urban and suburban Sartar.

 

Everybody does. And how RuneQuest describes Glorantha is not necessary the whole truth of the world. RuneQuest - Roleplaying in Glorantha is one approach - currently the favored one by Chaosium. But there are other approaches that may have perspectives at rather different angles, with different solutions. The Thirteenth Age in Glorantha approach bends those rules to approximate canonical Glorantha, while at the same time distancing itself from anything produced so far, voluntarily going off in different angles of undiscovered futures.

The HeroQuest Glorantha approach is a lot less rules-rigid than either its predecessor HQ1 or any form of RuneQuest.

 

"Cheating on heroquests" is a very unfortunate phrasing.

Everybody "cheats" when preparing themselves for a heroquest. Gloranthan questers bring "metagame knowledge" into their quests - they enter with the expectation of something almost like a liturgy, and better have prepared rote reactions to all those stations they don't want to take any specific advantage from other than getting to the stations where they want to reap rewards.

IMO the difference of Malkioni men-of-all going on such quests is that they do it as third-person questers rather than as first-person "looking through the eyes of my deity" questers as theists are wont to do. This isn't entirely alien to theist heroquesters - they too can reap rewards from interaction with other deities pretty much like the men-of-all do, in a way reminiscent of associate cult spells. Where the theist questers bring their identification with their deity to bear, the Malkioni quester brings his magical preparation from the wizards' blessings to bear.

Thank you for your in depth response, it is much appreciated and very well written!

Also I didn't want to go into deep unneccesary detail; we use RQ2 magic with RQ3 sorcery (with a few spell tweaks, for example damage boosting is +1 / 2 intensity. 

For both battle magic and rune magic we just do pow vs pow. If you cast vs a non resisting target you do MP vs 0 MP, so you still have 95% (and less if you are low).

Afaik Rq2 RAW doesn't have Pow x5 to cast battle magic, or else I've been playing wrong for like 15 years. If this is the case can you point me at the page? I re read the basic magic chapter on RQCE and there's no mention to this. It says spells on self and willing targets always work (except 96-00, but it's the same for us, we just don't double roll vs enemies)

Edited November 12, 2020 by icebrand

[Anunnaki]

15 minutes ago, icebrand said:

Afaik Rq2 RAW doesn't have Pow x5 to cast battle magic, or else I've been playing wrong for like 15 years. If this is the case can you point me at the page? I re read the basic magic chapter on RQCE and there's no mention to this. It says spells on self and willing targets always work (except 96-00, but it's the same for us, we just don't double roll vs enemies)

You are correct. RQ2 RAW doesn't do POWx5 for casting Battle Magic. It works like this:

1. If there is no resistance roll required by the spell, then it succeeds 95% of the time (96-00 fails), even if cast on willing recipients.
2. If there is a resistance roll (POW vs POW, for example), that is your casting roll (96-00 is a fail again, of course).

There's no potential for double rolls, like RQ3/G, where you may need to make a casting roll and a resistance roll.

Page references in my earlier post.

Kind regards, James

Edited November 12, 2020 by Anunnaki

[icebrand]

Just now, Anunnaki said:

You are correct. RQ2 RAW doesn't do POWx5 for casting. It works like this:

1. If there is no resistance roll required by the spell, then it succeeds 95% of the time (96-00 fails), even if cast on willing recipients.
2. If there is a resistance roll (POW vs POW, for example), that is your casting roll (96-00 is a fail again, of course).

There's no potential for double rolls, like RQ3/G, where you may need to make a casting roll and a resistance roll.

Page references in my earlier post.

Kind regards, James

We play it like that, only that when there is no resistance and you have <10 MP your cast chance goes down!

[David Scott]

15 hours ago, icebrand said:

My only real dislikes with the system are rolling dice to cast magic

You only have to roll dice if its a dramatic circumstance, otherwise it's an automatic success, page 141 covers all of this:

Quote

Does the chance of failure heighten tension and make for an exciting possibility? Will a failure add fun to the game? If the answer to either is “Yes,” then the gamemaster should have the player make an ability roll.

For example, in my games casting bladesharp before entering combat isn't dramatic , but casting heal on a dying adventurer is. It's really easy to cut back on trivial rolls especially with magic. I've never got my player to roll for repair spells.

[Trotsky]

1 minute ago, David Scott said:

You only have to roll dice if its a dramatic circumstance, otherwise it's an automatic success, page 141 covers all of this:

Absolutely - really makes a significant difference in play...

[Jeff]

1 hour ago, tnli said:

As of now, there are no rules on how sorcerers could combine their casting efforts. Do you refer here to them casting separate spells and doing other things to help each other, or something like them casting the same spell together and manipulating the intensity of that spell by up to their total combined Free INT? 

Actually, there are plenty of ways already for sorcerers to combine their casting efforts. Two groups:

Group One: One sorcerer casts the biggest Enhance INT spell possible on the primary spell caster, several others release the magic points in Magic Point Enchantments (loaded up with magic points from the last Invisible God worship ceremony using the Use Worship spell) to be available to the primary spell caster, who has inscribed Summon Tanian (a Fire/Water elemental of enormous size). 
Group Two: Exactly the same, except the primary spell caster is casting a Dominate Tanian spell.  

Have them all start their ritual hours, or even days ahead of time, with the ritual being surrounded by a big Protective Circle created by other sorcerers, who also cast Neutralize Magic, Ward Against Weapons, etc, on the Circle.

And watch the fun.

[tnli]

25 minutes ago, Jeff said:

Actually, there are plenty of ways already for sorcerers to combine their casting efforts. Two groups:

Group One: One sorcerer casts the biggest Enhance INT spell possible on the primary spell caster, several others release the magic points in Magic Point Enchantments (loaded up with magic points from the last Invisible God worship ceremony using the Use Worship spell) to be available to the primary spell caster, who has inscribed Summon Tanian (a Fire/Water elemental of enormous size). 
Group Two: Exactly the same, except the primary spell caster is casting a Dominate Tanian spell.  

Have them all start their ritual hours, or even days ahead of time, with the ritual being surrounded by a big Protective Circle created by other sorcerers, who also cast Neutralize Magic, Ward Against Weapons, etc, on the Circle.

And watch the fun.

Thank you, this is exactly what I was looking for: scary and innovative, but not power-gamey like combining the Free INT of all members of the sorcerers' circle. 

[Jeff]

2 minutes ago, tnli said:

Thank you, this is exactly what I was looking for: scary and innovative, but not power-gamey like combining the Free INT of all members of the sorcerers' circle. 

Yep. Other than Use Worship spell (or Worship Invisible God or whatever it gets called), all of this is stuff from the existing spell lists.

Sorcery is really useful - what it is not good at is responding as quickly to an unexpected surprise as Rune magic or even spirit magic. It requires time and careful planning.

[Gallowglass]

If the long casting times are a hard pill to swallow, one solution that someone posed in the forums a while back was having a “quick-cast” house rule in place. This would mean that a sorcerer can can use INTx5 or POWx5 or something like that, and cast a basic, un-boosted version of a sorcery spell. I’ve been thinking of allowing this in my next game. 

[Jeff]

28 minutes ago, Gallowglass said:

If the long casting times are a hard pill to swallow, one solution that someone posed in the forums a while back was having a “quick-cast” house rule in place. This would mean that a sorcerer can can use INTx5 or POWx5 or something like that, and cast a basic, un-boosted version of a sorcery spell. I’ve been thinking of allowing this in my next game. 

I really don't get why long casting times should be a hard pill to swallow. It just is what it is. Like complaining that Rune Points require sacrifices of points of POW.