RQG sorcery & other magics (rant)

[icebrand]

6 hours ago, Jeff said:

Now from what is in the rules, it is pretty easy to come up with a few additional spells, including something that lets a sorcerer take some portion of all the magic points offered by the worshipers in a Worship Invisible God ceremony presided over by said sorcerer and store them somehow; some spells that let you summon specific very powerful entities; spells that let you command said specific very powerful entities; and some wards against specific elements, etc. Take that and you have the core of Malkioni magic.

The various sects are on a continuum, from purely materialist Brithini and Vadeli who use NO magic except sorcery, to folk like the Black Horse Troop who receive Rune Magic (!) by worshiping various demigods and heroes almost in a form of ancestor worship. The latter was common among the God Learners who would would establish connections to entities - or even create conjectural entities that logically should work, create cults so those entities could be worshiped, and then siphon off some percentage of the magic and wield the power of that "artificial god" for themselves.

 

I love all you say, but again, why can't sorcerers form/set fire on people anymore? They have been doing it for 35 years up to RQG (HW/HQ did shift them hard to support, but they still were able to use their spells on the fly, and we're IMHO the most versatile they have ever been.  

Sadly everyone I roleplay with dislike hw/hq with a passion. My players even created this "bob the janitor" character who was a high school janitor and had "janitor" as his one and only skill with several masteries...

And then make this mock adventures to show how bob used janitor to beat every challenge and prove the system was bad. They convinced me.

[HreshtIronBorne]

1 hour ago, icebrand said:

I love all you say, but again, why can't sorcerers form/set fire on people anymore? They have been doing it for 35 years up to RQG (HW/HQ did shift them hard to support, but they still were able to use their spells on the fly, and we're IMHO the most versatile they have ever been.  

Is Form/Set (Fire) the specific issue? Finger of Fire in the RAW is almost exactly the same spell, well the bottom half where it describes hitting people with a controlled substance anyway. You could easily add a Stasis Rune or something and make it exactly Form/Set Fire? What were they accomplishing with their cinematic Hero moments that are currently lacking in RQ:G?

 

As far as I can tell the RQ:G RAW support arbitrarily large spells, depending on resources and time spent preparing a particular spell. Your experienced sorcerer with 210% Form/Set (Fire)/Finger of Fire probably has many points of inscription, which would allow him to do crazy stuff like form/set for practically forever or control huge amounts of Fire tendrils to attack people with. Even just a Free Int of 16-20 allows 2 attacks per tentacle per round and up to 6 tentacles at 1d6 damage or a single Badass tentacle doing 6d6 damage twice a round. That is freaking AWESOME! 3 tentacles attacking twice a round for 3d6 damage is, I would say, probably worth taking a round or two to cast. You can probably kill a whole slew of regular dudes!

 

[French Desperate WindChild]

On 11/12/2020 at 7:47 PM, lordabdul said:

It also gives out vibes of D&D-ish magic,

You put the key word ! I think the main issue with sorcery in RQG (less in older versions) is exactly that RQG is not D&D' like.

there are no class, then there is no balance needed between class to allow all players to go the same number of actions in fight.

In D&D, for what I have understood /seen(I prefer RQ "touch" so much than I played only one time D&D) each class, even a healer, is able to dps each round

In RQG, pc may have no impact in fight. A sorcerer is not expected to cast fireball and froze finger each round. Event if I m pretty sure, I am able to create an efficient sorcerer with fireball though. (well if characteristics are not dice choose and we find a "cult" with fireball for the +25 cult bonus)

 

After all, does someone consider that Issaries rune magic sucks because there is no "battle" magic ? The first time I read the rules I was "choked" to see a pregen Issaries with 90% in sword. But after all, why not ? And what can we conclude ? You can choose a non battle magic and be efficient  in fight (with material activity)

 

The best way for me is to see sorcerer as people able to do things different than other people. Not to see sorcerer as people able to do the same things than other people in a different way

On 11/12/2020 at 10:04 PM, icebrand said:

Not my Glorantha, sorcerers have been promimently featured as NPC and PCs since 1997, if I change how they work this much that wouldn't be *our* (my PCs and fellow GMs and mine) Glorantha anymore.

And  you are abolutly right. Use the material you need (timeline, rules, ...), and don't change your mechanics if it is too confusing.

The great objective is the pleasure, not following the canonic rules (or even the canonic concept of a sorcerer, if there is one)

[Jeff]

5 hours ago, icebrand said:

I love all you say, but again, why can't sorcerers form/set fire on people anymore? They have been doing it for 35 years up to RQG (HW/HQ did shift them hard to support, but they still were able to use their spells on the fly, and we're IMHO the most versatile they have ever been.  

Sadly everyone I roleplay with dislike hw/hq with a passion. My players even created this "bob the janitor" character who was a high school janitor and had "janitor" as his one and only skill with several masteries...

And then make this mock adventures to show how bob used janitor to beat every challenge and prove the system was bad. They convinced me.

I am not sure what you are even talking about. RuneQuest does not use RQ3 sorcery for Glorantha. You are totally welcome to use it in your Glorantha, but it sounds like your Glorantha is quite different from the official published material. Which is totally fine - but also makes this discussion kind of pointless. 

[icebrand]

4 hours ago, Jeff said:

I am not sure what you are even talking about. RuneQuest does not use RQ3 sorcery for Glorantha. You are totally welcome to use it in your Glorantha, but it sounds like your Glorantha is quite different from the official published material. Which is totally fine - but also makes this discussion kind of pointless. 

Well, we started playing with RQ3, GoG, and Genertela. I'm pretty sure glorantha has rq3 sorcery, i have the books right here. Sandy Petersen sorcery rules are a popular alternative and later published stuff is clearly inspired on both.

If you meant "RQG doesn't have rq3 sorcery" I agree 100% and that's my issue. Because it does have Rq2-3 battle and rune magic (with some changes, but it's an evolution of the system).

Lets say RQ8 has rune magic taking 5 SR for rune point. Wouldn't you agree that would be a radical departure from how rune magic worked since the OG runequest? Would you consider this an issue and if so, why isn't an issue for sorcery?

Edited November 14, 2020 by icebrand

[icebrand]

8 hours ago, HreshtIronBorne said:

Is Form/Set (Fire) the specific issue? Finger of Fire in the RAW is almost exactly the same spell, well the bottom half where it describes hitting people with a controlled substance anyway. You could easily add a Stasis Rune or something and make it exactly Form/Set Fire? What were they accomplishing with their cinematic Hero moments that are currently lacking in RQ:G?

No, the problem is that players usually take the path of least resistance. I want to kill the enemy runelord.

Why bother spending magic points for magic damage when a damage boosted sword is clearly much better? (It always was). 

So the magic damage takes a step back and it's only good against magically unskilled low armor opponents... And the damage boosted sword is looking even more effective.

So now our spells are only good for long range... But turns out a random dude with a bow will drop 3 enemies by the time you casted once... 

Now imagine you are with your group, and by the time you cast a spell the combat is over. This isn't very fun for the sorcerer, is it?

[allenowen]

2 hours ago, icebrand said:

No, the problem is that players usually take the path of least resistance. I want to kill the enemy runelord.

Why bother spending magic points for magic damage when a damage boosted sword is clearly much better? (It always was). 

So the magic damage takes a step back and it's only good against magically unskilled low armor opponents... And the damage boosted sword is looking even more effective.

So now our spells are only good for long range... But turns out a random dude with a bow will drop 3 enemies by the time you casted once... 

Now imagine you are with your group, and by the time you cast a spell the combat is over. This isn't very fun for the sorcerer, is it?

So you want them to, what...totally change the Sorcery rules in RQG to suit you? What do you want done? Or are you just venting your spleen? The Sorcery rules in RQG are bare bones; says so right in the text on pg 381. It also says more is forthcoming, so maybe wait for more to come out?

[soltakss]

13 hours ago, icebrand said:

I love all you say, but again, why can't sorcerers form/set fire on people anymore? They have been doing it for 35 years up to RQG (HW/HQ did shift them hard to support, but they still were able to use their spells on the fly, and we're IMHO the most versatile they have ever been.  

These things sometimes happen, unfortunately. You can still hear the bleatings of Yelmalians, crying that Yelmalio doesn't get Shield, for example.

There are several ways to approach this:

1. Accept it and carry on
2. Add a house rule that allows PC Sorcerers to cast spells the way they used to
3. Add RQ3 spells that now don't exist back into RQG

Don't forget that the new rules are guidelines, in the same way that all previous rules were guidelines. The worst way to convert PCs is to scrap what was previously there but is no longer in the rules. If spells are no longer in the rules then use the old version or invent new spells to cover them.

8 hours ago, Jeff said:

I am not sure what you are even talking about. RuneQuest does not use RQ3 sorcery for Glorantha. You are totally welcome to use it in your Glorantha, but it sounds like your Glorantha is quite different from the official published material. Which is totally fine - but also makes this discussion kind of pointless. 

I think that icebrand is saying that the PCs they already have use sorcery and now that sorcery does not exist in the same form.

Maybe we need some advice on how to convert PCs from old systems that use Sorcery.

3 hours ago, icebrand said:

So now our spells are only good for long range... But turns out a random dude with a bow will drop 3 enemies by the time you casted once... 

Now imagine you are with your group, and by the time you cast a spell the combat is over. This isn't very fun for the sorcerer, is it?

So, houserule it as in (2) above.

 

[soltakss]

13 hours ago, icebrand said:

Sadly everyone I roleplay with dislike hw/hq with a passion. My players even created this "bob the janitor" character who was a high school janitor and had "janitor" as his one and only skill with several masteries...

And then make this mock adventures to show how bob used janitor to beat every challenge and prove the system was bad. They convinced me.

Bob the Janitor is very good at what Bob the Janitor does, but not particularly good as what Bob the Janitor doesn't do. 

A good GM would not allow Bob the Janitor to use Janitor for everything, unless the Player came up with a good enough rationale. For example, knowing how to play the piano "because I used to stand and listen while the kids performed" is going to be a big stretch, but playing "because I played when the kids had gone home" might work.

 

[Baron Wulfraed]

17 minutes ago, soltakss said:

Maybe we need some advice on how to convert PCs from old systems that use Sorcery.

Beyond those in the "Conversion Guide"? {Quoted below - page 437}

"""

Sorcery
Sorcery has some aspects in common with the system from RQ3 but has otherwise been replaced completely. A few spells have identical names, but otherwise it is best to consider them completely different systems. The gamemaster should work carefully with the player coming up with a means of converting a sorcery-using adventurer from prior editions, with the following guidelines:

• For fledgling or beginning sorcerers, simply use the guidelines for sorcery-using adventurers presented in Mastering New Runes or Techniques (page 384).
• For more advanced sorcerers, the gamemaster should estimate how many skill points to allocate, based on existing total skill ranks in the sorcery skills of Intensity, Duration, Range, and Multispell. It is recommended that each 20% increment (round down) equals mastery of one technique or Rune.
• For starting spells, the player should pick a total number sorcery spells equal to the total of techniques and Runes mastered. Additional spells can be selected at a cost of 1 point of POW.

"""

 

Edited November 14, 2020 by Baron Wulfraed

[Paid a bod yn dwp]

Interesting thread. Never really got my head around sorcery in RQ3, so hearing about the comparative differences is helpful. 
 

I was relieved to read the new RQG sorcery rules as it feels doable. There’s a really strong sense of Gloranthan sorcery coming through with rules that won’t tax the user too much in play. It sounds very cool and unique in Glorantha and like something I’d like to explore in the future. 
 

Hats off to those who got RQ3 sorcery working well at the table, maybe I should have persisted, but probably not helped at the time by not having a strong enough sense of how it fitted thematically into Glorantha. Medieval knights in the Gloranthan boxed set didn’t help with my persistence to understand sorcery, the juxtapositions of the medieval west were too jarring for me.
Glad I can say that I’m much more interested in exploring sorcery and the west now that it feels like it’s found it’s thematic place in Glorantha. 

I guess you either accept those changes, house rule them, or continue with the different game that is RQ3,if you wish to continue with the same characters. It’s clear the designers have thought long and hard about the new implementation of sorcery and what it should do in the game world. 

 

 

[HreshtIronBorne]

4 hours ago, icebrand said:

So now our spells are only good for long range... But turns out a random dude with a bow will drop 3 enemies by the time you casted once... 

The dude with a bow might take out a couple dudes if he gets good hits. Sorcery gets straight up quadratic at times. You can get so much more throughput from some sorcery spells than you could get with even a maxed Rune Point dump for a Rune-Lord. Granted, you gotta stay safe for the couple rounds it takes to cast but, with some of the spells you can throw around you can level whole cities!

[icebrand]

1 hour ago, soltakss said:

Bob the Janitor is very good at what Bob the Janitor does, but not particularly good as what Bob the Janitor doesn't do. 

A good GM would not allow Bob the Janitor to use Janitor for everything, unless the Player came up with a good enough rationale. For example, knowing how to play the piano "because I used to stand and listen while the kids performed" is going to be a big stretch, but playing "because I played when the kids had gone home" might work.

 

I take it you never GMed for a shop teacher, a physicist and a plastic bag salesman / reporter lol.

 

[icebrand]

2 hours ago, allenowen said:

So you want them to, what...totally change the Sorcery rules in RQG to suit you? What do you want done? 

Changing the sorcery rules would be nice.

Getting rid of the one round cast time (leave the rest as is) would be a good start.

Say that the sorcery flavor of the grey sages is slower but true sorcerors don't need the 1round start up because they are more efficient in their way of approaching sorcery, due to not having to do through a god. BAM! Sorcery kinda fixed.

[Frp]

My favorite character was a "Man of All" in the RQ3 days. Most of the spells he'd cast would be buffs, long, before combat back then. I liked from\set fire too but if it wasn't cast before combat started it wasn't happening. 

I'm liking what I've seen of the new rules, so far. They fit the setting. Rune spells bouncing off him, and probably get cast back, would have been sweet back in the day. 

I'd love to know how the chain of veneration is going to work and what a Loksami taboos are. 

[soltakss]

2 hours ago, Baron Wulfraed said:

2 hours ago, soltakss said:

Maybe we need some advice on how to convert PCs from old systems that use Sorcery.

Beyond those in the "Conversion Guide"? {Quoted below - page 437}

Probably, yes. Those are fine, but I don't think they offer enough advice on how to convert a sorcerer PC from RQ3 to RQG. They certainly don't answer icebrand's questions or address such problems.

Thanks for the quote, that is very useful.

49 minutes ago, icebrand said:

Getting rid of the one round cast time (leave the rest as is) would be a good start.

So, have that as a house rule. Problem solved.

49 minutes ago, icebrand said:

Say that the sorcery flavor of the grey sages is slower but true sorcerors don't need the 1round start up because they are more efficient in their way of approaching sorcery, due to not having to do through a god. BAM! Sorcery kinda fixed.

Sorted, why not do that, then?

 

50 minutes ago, icebrand said:

I take it you never GMed for a shop teacher, a physicist and a plastic bag salesman / reporter lol.

 

No, currently GMing for a landlord, architect, DHS clerk and translator/teacher, previously a manager, accountant/finance director and chemist in the nuclear industry. In my experience it doesn't matter who is at the gaming table, unless you are GMing a Mythic/alternate Earth game with archaeologists, history teachers and experts in mythology.

[Jeff]

The sorcerers of the West work the same as described in RQG. They just have a lot more social infrastructure and a wider range of spells.

[allenowen]

3 hours ago, icebrand said:

Changing the sorcery rules would be nice.

Getting rid of the one round cast time (leave the rest as is) would be a good start.

Say that the sorcery flavor of the grey sages is slower but true sorcerors don't need the 1round start up because they are more efficient in their way of approaching sorcery, due to not having to do through a god. BAM! Sorcery kinda fixed.

Little late for them to revamp the rules...the book has been printed already. 

[PhilHibbs]

Glorantha most definitely does not have RQ3 sorcery. It doesn't have RQG sorcery. It doesn't perfectly match any mechanic from any game system. You will not find a Gloranthan story that does, that is not based directly on the rules, that pre-dates RQ3. The various game systems are approximations, some better than others, some just more appropriate for telling different kinds of stories.

RQG sorcery more closely matches Chaosium's Glorantha than RQ3 sorcery. Maybe RQ3 matches your Glorantha better, or fits better the kind of stories you have played, that's fine. House rule it, combine, ignore, that's what many Gloranthan GMs have done with every rule system ever produced. The published rules provide one way of doing it, and they decided that the RQ3 way was flawed. I don't blame them at all, although I enjoyed it and also am a little saddened to see some of it go.

[Jeff]

I am very glad to get rid of RQ3 sorcery. It did not function within the magical ecology of Glorantha. We have no intention of going back to RQ3. And as we continue to explore the Invisible God, we've had many interesting revelations. 

[Kloster]

10 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

Glorantha most definitely does not have RQ3 sorcery. It doesn't have RQG sorcery. It doesn't perfectly match any mechanic from any game system. You will not find a Gloranthan story that does, that is not based directly on the rules, that pre-dates RQ3. The various game systems are approximations, some better than others, some just more appropriate for telling different kinds of stories.

RQG sorcery more closely matches Chaosium's Glorantha than RQ3 sorcery. Maybe RQ3 matches your Glorantha better, or fits better the kind of stories you have played, that's fine. House rule it, combine, ignore, that's what many Gloranthan GMs have done with every rule system ever produced. The published rules provide one way of doing it, and they decided that the RQ3 way was flawed. I don't blame them at all, although I enjoyed it and also am a little saddened to see some of it go.

What I understand is that RQ3 sorcery does not match more their Glorantha, but is simply the rules they used during many many years, and they are disappointed that some of the things they were doing are not working anymore.

[Jeff]

56 minutes ago, Kloster said:

What I understand is that RQ3 sorcery does not match more their Glorantha, but is simply the rules they used during many many years, and they are disappointed that some of the things they were doing are not working anymore.

Which is fine - but those rules were written in 1984, and the only official supplement that did any exploration of sorcery was in 1985. We also got rid of fatigue, certain types of armor, got rid of numerous cult restrictions, and changed shamanism and spirit combat substantially.

If you want to keep playing your old RQ3 characters using the RQ3 rules, nobody is stopping you. But we will be exploring sorcery and Malkionism, and they work using the RQG rules. Greg and I spent countless hours discussing Malkionism and sorcery, and just as I am finally happy with how Runes function with RQG, I am finally happy with how sorcery works.

[tnli]

4 hours ago, Jeff said:

<snip> But we will be exploring sorcery and Malkionism, and they work using the RQG rules. Greg and I spent countless hours discussing Malkionism and sorcery, and just as I am finally happy with how Runes function with RQG, I am finally happy with how sorcery works.

Speaking of which, what is the point of not being able to transfer sorcery inscriptions to other sorcerers? I mean, is it an in-world thing, or some sort of game balance issue, or a bit of both? Or is it something completely different? 

The reason I'm asking is because I find that there is pretty much no specific loot available for sorcerers, besides books that contain spells (as in, you can use it as a reference when studying a sorcery spell), but those are only mentioned in passing. Spirit bindings and Magic point containers are universally usable for everybody! So, anyway, I'm thinking of a house ruling that one might attempt to be able to use someone else's Inscription as their own. I'm thinking that it might be somewhat similar to attuning to a crystal, but always cost a point of POW whether successful or not, and also have a chance of destroying the Inscription. And before I do that, I would like to know the reasoning behind the rule in the book. 

 

Edited November 15, 2020 by tnli
Added clarity, hopefully.

[Kloster]

4 hours ago, Jeff said:

We also got rid of fatigue, certain types of armor, got rid of numerous cult restrictions, and changed shamanism and spirit combat substantially.

Exact. Those same points are mainly those that makes me think RQG is better.

4 hours ago, Jeff said:

If you want to keep playing your old RQ3 characters using the RQ3 rules, nobody is stopping you.

I am not. I was just explaining my thinking of the OP post.

4 hours ago, Jeff said:

But we will be exploring sorcery and Malkionism, and they work using the RQG rules.

Please do. Yes, please.

4 hours ago, Jeff said:

I am finally happy with how sorcery works.

So am I. I loved RQ3 sorcery, but on that point, RQG is (for me) far better.

Edited November 15, 2020 by Kloster
typing mistake

[Frp]

1 hour ago, tnli said:

Speaking of which, what is the point of not being able to transfer sorcery inscriptions to other sorcerers? I mean, is it an in-world thing, or some sort of game balance issue, or a bit of both? Or is it something completely different? 

The reason I'm asking is because I find that there is pretty much no specific loot available for sorcerers, besides books that contain spells (as in, you can use it as a reference when studying a sorcery spell), but those are only mentioned in passing. Spirit bindings and Magic point containers are universally usable for everybody! So, anyway, I'm thinking of a house ruling that one might attempt to be able to use someone else's Inscription as their own. I'm thinking that it might be somewhat similar to attuning to a crystal, but always cost a point of POW whether successful or not, and also have a chance of destroying the Inscription. And before I do that, I would like to know the reasoning behind the rule in the book. 

 

Check out the Q and A thread. I asked about sorcery enchantments. It can be done.