RQG sorcery & other magics (rant)

[Shiningbrow]

On 11/11/2020 at 10:55 PM, David Scott said:

I regularly ran demo's of RQG for new players, Sorala (the LM sorcerer) is always a popular choice. Here's a third page for Sorala that goes with her Pregen sheet that I use for demos:

Once they see Strength + Range + Duration level must be 17 or less, it's straightforward.

It needs to also be remembered that Sorala, while having a couple of sorcerous spells, is NOT a sorcerer! She's barely a dabbler.

In the current RQ rules, the only thing close to a "Sorcerer" occupation is Philosopher, and that's not even remotely close to sorcerer anyway...

 

I'm saying this to point out merely that sorcery hasn't been developed yet, and that the OP's point is moot until such time as we actually have fully-fledged sorcery in action.

In addition, anyone who wants to start with a philosopher as a "sorcerer" is going to have 3-6 spells (minimum - perhaps more by spending the extra "Personal Skill Bonuses" on spells)... with 20%/10%/10% plus 25%/10%/10%... plus Magic category... plus personal skill bonuses. So, starting spells of 80%/50%/50% normal (plus time, plus associations - plus buff) are not unusual (plus maybe a couple/few of 15%-20% spells on the side).  Again, for a not-sorcerer!

[Shiningbrow]

On 11/12/2020 at 5:28 AM, icebrand said:

"The Loskalmi army is one of the best in the world. It is professional, motivated, well equipped and magically powerful."

Glorantha: Genertela, Crucible of the Hero Wars, Genertela book, page 11 (emphasis mine). Has this been Gregged? Do you have a source for their weakness and compromises? Is there a source for the heroquesting stuff?

Ummm - I think you've missed the point of that.

The army is magically powerful. And most other armies would be a bit silly to go up against them.

They are magically powerful in two ways. Firstly, their soldiers are heavily buffed before they go into battle (and the better/higher ranked ones are pretty much permanently buffed). Secondly, and I think this comes down to your main point, is that battles between armies don't usually end within about 30 seconds. Nor do such battles start within melee range - nor even within missile range (and don't forget that Rune Spells have a range of 160m - so the smart people don't get that close until they've buffed up with spirit magic or other Rune spells). They tend to start with a few miles/kilometres away from each other (because the scouts have reported the presence of the enemy), and the terrain and placements get set up, other preparations are made, etc. Including the sorcerers preparing their ranged AoE spells.

So, when the Loskalmi army is doing what armies do (wander around looking for something to fight), they're already buffed up magically. Then, they pick a target - and have potentially hours before entering the fray! So that Moonfire rains down long before the actual melee combatants (or even archers) have gotten even remotely close to each other.

Even in an ambush situation, it's pretty rare that an army of a few hundred will go down in less than a minute (and that's not considering the buffs already in place).

 

(I'm just now imagining William Wallis giving his great speech before attacking the Loskalmi... after the first minute or so of a long-winded speech - "They may take our lives, but they will never take our... OH SHIT... RUUUUNNNNNNNN")

 

I think the whole problem with the argument is the idea that RQ is merely a Hack'n'Slash.

Also, if you want to "Form/Set Fire" with sorcery, Summon/Bind/Dominate Fire Elemental - problem solved!

[Shiningbrow]

On 11/14/2020 at 3:04 PM, French Desperate WindChild said:

You put the key word ! I think the main issue with sorcery in RQG (less in older versions) is exactly that RQG is not D&D' like.

there are no class, then there is no balance needed between class to allow all players to go the same number of actions in fight.

In D&D, for what I have understood /seen(I prefer RQ "touch" so much than I played only one time D&D) each class, even a healer, is able to dps each round

In RQG, pc may have no impact in fight. A sorcerer is not expected to cast fireball and froze finger each round. Event if I m pretty sure, I am able to create an efficient sorcerer with fireball though. (well if characteristics are not dice choose and we find a "cult" with fireball for the +25 cult bonus)

 

After all, does someone consider that Issaries rune magic sucks because there is no "battle" magic ? The first time I read the rules I was "choked" to see a pregen Issaries with 90% in sword. But after all, why not ? And what can we conclude ? You can choose a non battle magic and be efficient  in fight (with material activity)

 

The best way for me is to see sorcerer as people able to do things different than other people. Not to see sorcerer as people able to do the same things than other people in a different way

And  you are abolutly right. Use the material you need (timeline, rules, ...), and don't change your mechanics if it is too confusing.

The great objective is the pleasure, not following the canonic rules (or even the canonic concept of a sorcerer, if there is one)

But then - D&D has fully dedicated, powerful healers, the epitome of love and gentleness - who can go toe-to-toe with the BBEG and still win!

[Darius West]

On 11/12/2020 at 5:27 AM, lordabdul said:

What Joerg and David said.

IMHO, Sorcerers are scientists and philosophers and alchemists, and they stay up in their towers and laboratories and libraries for months on end before coming outside. And when they do, they have months of prepared spells at their disposal, stored in trinkets and staffs and amulets and such, plus some minions and sidekicks to accompany them and deal with the mundane affairs of hitting people on the head. Basically: it's Ars Magica in Glorantha. And there's a reason Ars Magica uses troupe play by default.

From a pure game design perspective, though:  there is zero point in adding a third magic system that does what the other two do, which is to be useful in action and combat scenes. If a character wants to be able to cast spells in less than a round in order to buff themselves up or deal damage or control the forces of nature, there's already Spirit and Rune Magic for this. Sorcery (again, IMHO) is for something completely different in terms of gameplay, storytelling, and flavour.

I totally agree lordabdul so let me add some gloss to support your position.

Sorcerers are scientists, philosophers and alchemists, unequivocally, but fundamentally this is all about researching mathematical relationships in nature.  This is all about literacy, mathematics and research.  Sorcery is about understanding why nature does what it does and then manipulating those tendencies.  Runes are the essential building blocks of Glorantha, and just as wizards in Ars Magica manipulate the world of Platonic ideals to create magical effects, the sorcerers in RQ are manipulating the pure forms of the Runes, that their training has taught them to interact with via their magic points.  In a way, every Sorcerer is a bit of a Lhankor Mhy at heart.  He likes order, and archiving things, and is secretly a bit intimidated by field work and its risks.

It is also hard to become a successful sorcerer.  You need to develop a number of propensities that you don't start with.  Now you might take the cowardly way, and hope to inherit resources, but successful adventures are potentially so much more rewarding.  For example, any magical crystal is potentially a staggering boon for a sorcerer.  Every sorcery spell is basically the same as a spirit spell, except that it varies because it can be manipulated by the sorcery skills in a way that spirit spells cannot.  For those who would disagree, I draw your attention to the RQ3 Lunar Magic which allowed spirit spells to be manipulated by sorcery skills.  Sometimes the result would be better than sorcery spells, and sometimes not.  The upside of this is that when a sorcerer uses a magic crystal, it potentially amps up his spells a great deal, and if the crystal supposedly only works on spirit spells, don't believe it won't work on sorcery spells even better potentially.

The upshot of this is that sorcerers fear going into danger, and so they will research whatever they can about the expedition they are planning, as research is their true strength.  A sorcerer is a man with a plan and is likely working to a hard schedule and deadlines if he has set foot outside his tower.  Some sorcerers are not so organized, and have more of a sense of how to improvise, but sorcery is not a magic system that lends itself to improv, and so a disorganized sorcerer is likely to have very indulgent friends, or be quite dead quite young.

Another thing it is worth really making an issue of is that sorcery stacks with other magic.  If you lay down a countermagic, you can still have a friendly sorcerer cast a similar spell on you.  As a result, when a sorcerer meets a shaman and a theist, if they co-operate, they can synergize their magics, and this is the basis for the I Fought We Won battle hero quest imo. Similarly, any good power gamer like Argrath will have done that Hero Quest and will have potentially learned the secret lesson involved.  It is all part of the RuneQuest Sight that was the apogee of Sorcerous achievement.

[Jeff]

4 minutes ago, Darius West said:

I totally agree lordabdul so let me add some gloss to support your position.

Sorcerers are scientists, philosophers and alchemists, unequivocally, but fundamentally this is all about researching mathematical relationships in nature.  This is all about literacy, mathematics and research.  Sorcery is about understanding why nature does what it does and then manipulating those tendencies.  Runes are the essential building blocks of Glorantha, and just as wizards in Ars Magica manipulate the world of Platonic ideals to create magical effects, the sorcerers in RQ are manipulating the pure forms of the Runes, that their training has taught them to interact with via their magic points.  In a way, every Sorcerer is a bit of a Lhankor Mhy at heart.  He likes order, and archiving things, and is secretly a bit intimidated by field work and its risks.

It is also hard to become a successful sorcerer.  You need to develop a number of propensities that you don't start with.  Now you might take the cowardly way, and hope to inherit resources, but successful adventures are potentially so much more rewarding.  For example, any magical crystal is potentially a staggering boon for a sorcerer.  Every sorcery spell is basically the same as a spirit spell, except that it varies because it can be manipulated by the sorcery skills in a way that spirit spells cannot.  For those who would disagree, I draw your attention to the RQ3 Lunar Magic which allowed spirit spells to be manipulated by sorcery skills.  Sometimes the result would be better than sorcery spells, and sometimes not.  The upside of this is that when a sorcerer uses a magic crystal, it potentially amps up his spells a great deal, and if the crystal supposedly only works on spirit spells, don't believe it won't work on sorcery spells even better potentially.

The upshot of this is that sorcerers fear going into danger, and so they will research whatever they can about the expedition they are planning, as research is their true strength.  A sorcerer is a man with a plan and is likely working to a hard schedule and deadlines if he has set foot outside his tower.  Some sorcerers are not so organized, and have more of a sense of how to improvise, but sorcery is not a magic system that lends itself to improv, and so a disorganized sorcerer is likely to have very indulgent friends, or be quite dead quite young.

This is all pretty much spot on. The Loskalmi army is one of the most powerful in Glorantha because ALL Loskalmi zzaburi are integrated into it. The irony is that in general, the New Hrestoli zzaburi are less skilled and less powerful than their Rokari counterparts (probably much more so), but they are much better at coordinating with the other castes - precisely because they had to have experienced being soldiers in order to become zzaburi. It also means that their magic is primary focused on martial enhancements. 

So when the Loskalmi army goes to war, it brings a lot of zzaburi with it. These zzaburi are responsible for maintaining sorcerous blessings on some number of soldiers. So maybe every two weeks the zzaburi casts Dampen Damage 4 on each soldier in his unit. Then before the battle, each zzaburi casts Boon of Kargan Tor 8 and Neutralise Magic 6 on one elite soldier (giving him an extra +2D6 damage), with an all day duration (let's assume that between crystals, bound spirits, etc. the zzaburi has about 40 magic points to play around with(. After casting these spells there is a big a Worship Invisible God ceremony to replenish those magic points. Then CHARGE!

[Jeff]

Just now, Jeff said:

This is all pretty much spot on. The Loskalmi army is one of the most powerful in Glorantha because ALL Loskalmi zzaburi are integrated into it. The irony is that in general, the New Hrestoli zzaburi are less skilled and less powerful than their Rokari counterparts (probably much more so), but they are much better at coordinating with the other castes - precisely because they had to have experienced being soldiers in order to become zzaburi. It also means that their magic is primary focused on martial enhancements. 

So when the Loskalmi army goes to war, it brings a lot of zzaburi with it. These zzaburi are responsible for maintaining sorcerous blessings on some number of soldiers. So maybe every two weeks the zzaburi casts Dampen Damage 4 on each soldier in his unit. Then before the battle, each zzaburi casts Boon of Kargan Tor 8 and Neutralise Magic 6 on one elite soldier (giving him an extra +2D6 damage), with an all day duration (let's assume that between crystals, bound spirits, etc. the zzaburi has about 40 magic points to play around with(. After casting these spells there is a big a Worship Invisible God ceremony to replenish those magic points. Then CHARGE!

But this means that before battle, there is several hours of ceremony. Ancient battles being what they were, that is very possible.

[French Desperate WindChild]

2 hours ago, Jeff said:

Then before the battle, each zzaburi casts Boon of Kargan Tor 8 and Neutralise Magic 6 on one elite soldier

I may have misunderstood something about loskalmi but as zzaburi become zzaburi when they "succeed" as soldier, aren't they themselves the elite solidiers ?

Or a soldier becomes zaburi when he/she fits skills requirements but also "age" requirement (time to retire ?)

[Jeff]

41 minutes ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

I may have misunderstood something about loskalmi but as zzaburi become zzaburi when they "succeed" as soldier, aren't they themselves the elite solidiers ?

Or a soldier becomes zaburi when he/she fits skills requirements but also "age" requirement (time to retire ?)

There are plenty of very very skilled soldiers who lack the INT and POW to be zzaburi. This is of course a weakness in the New Hrestoli system. If only those capable of becoming soldiers are brought out of the worker caste, you've eliminated many potential zzaburi (all of those too weak and frail to be good soldiers).

[icebrand]

3 hours ago, Darius West said:

Sorcerers are scientists, philosophers and alchemists, unequivocally

(...)

He likes order, and archiving things, and is secretly a bit intimidated by field work and its risks.

(...)

It is also hard to become a successful sorcerer.

(...)

The upshot of this is that sorcerers fear going into danger

(...)

Another thing it is worth really making an issue of is that sorcery stacks with other magic.

> Sorcerers are scientists, philosophers and alchemists, unequivocally

I'm sorry but sorcerers can be a lot of things. Several Gloranthan societies use sorcery as their one and only magic system. 

Saying this is akin to saying theists are warriors. It is not correct with the setting as published (at least pre-rqg)

> He likes order, and archiving things, and is secretly a bit intimidated by field work and its risks.

> The upshot of this is that sorcerers fear going into danger

I'm sorry I don't see gerlant flamesword or sir meriathan or ethilrist as "liking to archive" or "intimidated by fieldwork" or "fearing danger".

> It is also hard to become a successful sorcerer.

> Another thing it is worth really making an issue of is that sorcery stacks with other magic.

Moot point. Becoming a runelord is also hard and their magic also stacks.

3 hours ago, Jeff said:

This is all pretty much spot on. The Loskalmi army is one of the most powerful in Glorantha because ALL Loskalmi zzaburi are integrated into it. The irony is that in general, the New Hrestoli zzaburi are less skilled and less powerful than their Rokari counterparts (probably much more so), but they are much better at coordinating with the other castes - precisely because they had to have experienced being soldiers in order to become zzaburi. It also means that their magic is primary focused on martial enhancements. 

So when the Loskalmi army goes to war, it brings a lot of zzaburi with it. These zzaburi are responsible for maintaining sorcerous blessings on some number of soldiers. So maybe every two weeks the zzaburi casts Dampen Damage 4 on each soldier in his unit. Then before the battle, each zzaburi casts Boon of Kargan Tor 8 and Neutralise Magic 6 on one elite soldier (giving him an extra +2D6 damage), with an all day duration (let's assume that between crystals, bound spirits, etc. the zzaburi has about 40 magic points to play around with(. After casting these spells there is a big a Worship Invisible God ceremony to replenish those magic points. Then CHARGE!

I understand YGWV and gregging, but the loskalmi zzaburi are called grand knights (wizard knights by outsiders) and have combat skills on par with a runelord. Having them cast buffs on soldiers and knights is akin to using your death lord to cast buffs on trollkin an initiates. This is not how loskalmi worked.

37 minutes ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

I may have misunderstood something about loskalmi but as zzaburi become zzaburi when they "succeed" as soldier, aren't they themselves the elite solidiers ?

Or a soldier becomes zaburi when he/she fits skills requirements but also "age" requirement (time to retire ?)

Afaik rules for casting changed, making sorcery less viable for direct confrontation, so the whole west needs to be gregged.

[Jeff]

25 minutes ago, icebrand said:

> Sorcerers are scientists, philosophers and alchemists, unequivocally

I'm sorry but sorcerers can be a lot of things. Several Gloranthan societies use sorcery as their one and only magic system. 

Saying this is akin to saying theists are warriors. It is not correct with the setting as published (at least pre-rqg)

> He likes order, and archiving things, and is secretly a bit intimidated by field work and its risks.

> The upshot of this is that sorcerers fear going into danger

I'm sorry I don't see gerlant flamesword or sir meriathan or ethilrist as "liking to archive" or "intimidated by fieldwork" or "fearing danger".

> It is also hard to become a successful sorcerer.

> Another thing it is worth really making an issue of is that sorcery stacks with other magic.

Moot point. Becoming a runelord is also hard and their magic also stacks.

I understand YGWV and gregging, but the loskalmi zzaburi are called grand knights (wizard knights by outsiders) and have combat skills on par with a runelord. Having them cast buffs on soldiers and knights is akin to using your death lord to cast buffs on trollkin an initiates. This is not how loskalmi worked.

Afaik rules for casting changed, making sorcery less viable for direct confrontation, so the whole west needs to be gregged.

The problem is that you are clearing basing everything off the very small amount of information about the West in RQ3. There's a lot more information and lot more to come.

[icebrand]

2 hours ago, Jeff said:

The problem is that you are clearing basing everything off the very small amount of information about the West in RQ3. There's a lot more information and lot more to come.

We also have black horse county keyword from HW, where sorcery is not slower -nor weaker- than any counterpart, but i didn't bring those much because game systems are very dissimilar. 

According to HW they use sorcery (they even have grimoires) not "creative heroquesting" / rune magics like proposed earlier in this thread, and mechanically they are not disadvantaged in "normal playing scenarios" as sorcery appears to be in RQG (though they can be more "specific"). At least they don't fail at combat, which is a core part of fantasy RPG. 

Also, you seem to imply the very little RQ3 material is going to be retconned, or maybe i misinterpreted you?

Edited December 15, 2020 by icebrand

[metcalph]

Just now, icebrand said:

We also have black horse county keyword from HW, where sorcery is not slower -nor weaker- than any counterpart, but i didn't bring those much because game systems are very dissimilar. 

HeroQuest and Hero Wars simplify the magic rather than create a crunchy RQ-style of grittiness.  Saying that Black Horse County is a functioning sorcerous society because it was one in Hero Wars isn't that compelling.  

More to the point, Greg's thinking that only sorcerors/wizards actually cast sorcery and everybody else used lesser magic.  Everybody else then (me included) was a bit too wedded to sorcery being a parallel magic system in its own right (ie even the commoners used sorcery) and keep muddying the waters to make that work.

[Lordabdul]

8 hours ago, Darius West said:

A sorcerer is a man with a plan and is likely working to a hard schedule and deadlines if he has set foot outside his tower.

Yeah. I've been thinking a bit about a hypothetical Western Wizard campaign lately, and I can see two solutions for this:

1. The good ol' Ars Magica troupe system, of course, where only one wizard comes out at a time because the other ones are busy with their research (except for the occasional climax adventure). That's a proven system, but many players may not want to play a sorcerer only once every 4 adventures... although I suppose they would still play apprentices and assistants, who do have sorcery (just not super-hero awesome sorcery).

2. Stick more rigidly to the "one adventure per season" rhythm, but add some "downtime action economy" rules, a bit like what WFRP or Blades in the Dark do. Players could then allocate their time between adventures to acquiring alchemical elements, making use of the calendar to do rituals at the right time, etc. The RQG rules already provide a good base for half of it, so house/extra rules are mostly about the non-magic stuff: hiring/training assistants, finding herbs and other substances, acquiring crystals, heck maybe even decking out your tower with protection spells and nice curtains.

That second solution is fun to design (at least for me), with the only downside being to find justifications for several wizards going out together on each adventure. I think I need to read more about the West to see if that's viable for anything longer than a handful of adventures set around important events...

Edited December 15, 2020 by lordabdul

[metcalph]

3 hours ago, icebrand said:

I'm sorry but sorcerers can be a lot of things. Several Gloranthan societies use sorcery as their one and only magic system. 

There are only two magical societies that do so - the Vadeli and the Brithini.  Neither of who are particularly powerful/  Every other Malkioni (Loskalmi, Seshnegi, Carmanians etc) has reached a philosophical compromise between ideals and reality.

 

3 hours ago, icebrand said:

I'm sorry I don't see gerlant flamesword or sir meriathan or ethilrist as "liking to archive" or "intimidated by fieldwork" or "fearing danger".

I have a feeling that the Flamesword is our old friend, the Fireblade spirit magic, rather than a sorcery spell or Saintly magic.  The Red Book of Magic may reveal more.  But here, you are inferring that the average Malkioni is much like the heroes of old.  Meriatan is a sorcerous user and quite a good one but I doubt that same is true for Ethilrist and Gerlant.

 

3 hours ago, icebrand said:

I understand YGWV and gregging, but the loskalmi zzaburi are called grand knights (wizard knights by outsiders) and have combat skills on par with a runelord. Having them cast buffs on soldiers and knights is akin to using your death lord to cast buffs on trollkin an initiates. This is not how loskalmi worked.

That's true and they don't IMO.  They cast buffs on the Hrestoli before they enter the HeroQuests so the latter become little gods on the battlefield when they come out.  

 

[Jeff]

10 minutes ago, icebrand said:

We also have black horse county keyword from HW, where sorcery is not slower -nor weaker- than any counterpart, but i didn't bring those much because game systems are very dissimilar. 

According to HW they use sorcery (they even have grimoires) not "creative heroquesting" / rune magics like proposed earlier in this thread, and mechanically they are not disadvantaged in "normal playing scenarios" as sorcery appears to be in RQG (though they can be more "specific"). At least they don't fail at combat, which is a core part of fantasy RPG. 

Also, you seem to imply the very little RQ3 material is going to be retconned, or maybe i misinterpreted you?

Ummm, given that the sorcery mechanics in RQG are quite different from RQ3, and that the Guide does not speak of Grand Knights (Meriatan is the First Scholar of the Brotherhood of the Sparrow) or other medieval titles or anachronisms, I think it is fair to say that speculations about the Glorantha West based purely on RQ3 are likely going to be wildly off.

[Jeff]

1 minute ago, metcalph said:

There are only two magical societies that do so - the Vadeli and the Brithini.  Neither of who are particularly powerful/  Every other Malkioni (Loskalmi, Seshnegi, Carmanians etc) has reached a philosophical compromise between ideals and reality.

 

I have a feeling that the Flamesword is our old friend, the Fireblade spirit magic, rather than a sorcery spell or Saintly magic.  The Red Book of Magic may reveal more.  But here, you are inferring that the average Malkioni is much like the heroes of old.  Meriatan is a sorcerous user and quite a good one but I doubt that same is true for Ethilrist and Gerlant.

 

That's true and they don't IMO.  They cast buffs on the Hrestoli before they enter the HeroQuests so the latter become little gods on the battlefield when they come out.  

 

Gerlant actually has Rune Magic.

[Jeff]

4 minutes ago, metcalph said:

There are only two magical societies that do so - the Vadeli and the Brithini.  Neither of who are particularly powerful/  Every other Malkioni (Loskalmi, Seshnegi, Carmanians etc) has reached a philosophical compromise between ideals and reality.

 

I have a feeling that the Flamesword is our old friend, the Fireblade spirit magic, rather than a sorcery spell or Saintly magic.  The Red Book of Magic may reveal more.  But here, you are inferring that the average Malkioni is much like the heroes of old.  Meriatan is a sorcerous user and quite a good one but I doubt that same is true for Ethilrist and Gerlant.

 

That's true and they don't IMO.  They cast buffs on the Hrestoli before they enter the HeroQuests so the latter become little gods on the battlefield when they come out.  

 

I think you are thinking of the First Brothers, an elite order of warrior-wizards. Most wizards are removed from most worldly distractions and allowed to dedicate themselves fully to spiritual and arcane concerns. 

[Jeff]

There are perhaps 2500 First Brothers in all of Loskalm, so 1/10th of 1%. If we assume there are about 35,000 Men-of-All (about 1% of the total population), then there are probably another 5000 Wizards. Of course that is back of the envelope calculation and subject to change.

[French Desperate WindChild]

20 minutes ago, lordabdul said:

Yeah. I've been thinking a bit about a hypothetical Western Wizard campaign lately, and I can see two solutions for this:

1. The good ol' Ars Magica troupe system, of course, where only one wizard comes out at a time because the other ones are busy with their research (except for the occasional climax adventure). That's a proven system, but many players may not want to play a sorcerer only once every 4 adventures... although I suppose they would still play apprentices and assistants, who do have sorcery (just not super-hero awesome sorcery).

2. Stick more rigidly to the "one adventure per season" rhythm, but add some "downtime action economy" rules, a bit like what WFRP or Blades in the Dark do. Players could then allocate their time between adventures to acquiring alchemical elements, making use of the calendar to do rituals at the right time, etc. The RQG rules already provide a good base for half of it, so house/extra rules are mostly about the non-magic stuff: hiring/training assistants, finding herbs and other substances, acquiring crystals, heck maybe even decking out your tower with protection spells and nice curtains.

That second solution is fun to design (at least for me), with the only downside being to find justifications for several wizards going out together on each adventure. I think I need to read more about the West to see if that's viable for anything longer than a handful of adventures set around important events...

I think that a full "sorcerer adventurer" is possible too

it needs just a lot of roleplay and "time" optimization :

everything made by a sorcerer should be  planned, thought out.

If a sorceror goes to adventure it is to get something :

• knowledge
• material for ritual and research
• some powerful artifact
• money to live
• service from any more powerful sorcer

 

Now if you (you = a gloranthan) are zzaburi and want to be a powerful sorcerer, well, don't go to adventure, but stay at home / library and try by intrigue to gain a good place and be able to send other people in adventure

I think we (irl) can have fun with true gloranthan sorcerer (aka not a spell caster like in other rpg) but we need a lot of material (I hope soon but I hope AFTER god and goddess 😛 ) and a large role play investment.

 

 

 

[Lordabdul]

1 hour ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

If a sorceror goes to adventure it is to get something

Yep, that works for one sorcerer, but like I said, I'm not sure how to justify 3 or 4 of them (the PCs) going on adventures together every season or so. Maybe they're part of the same Order or Invisible God Chapter or something. Anyway, this is entirely because I don't know enough about the West yet. I have some reading to do and then I'm sure I can come up with something (but I'll gladly take suggestions of course   )

Edited December 15, 2020 by lordabdul

[French Desperate WindChild]

12 hours ago, lordabdul said:

like I said, I'm not sure how to justify 3 or 4

Oh I didn't read it  (the evil part of my mind would say "oeil pour oeil dent pour dent" since the lie spell post discussion )

Sure I m like you, not enough lore for that

some idea however

the pc (from the same "school") were surprised doing something wrong : reading a forbidden book, laughing (or doing) about bad joke to their master, seeing some information the local power dislikes to be known... then they are banned for a long time. They have to leave the west and arrive in Nochet, then let's start the campain : they have no master, no money, and are in barbarian countries

[Darius West]

14 hours ago, metcalph said:

There are only two magical societies that do so - the Vadeli and the Brithini.  Neither of who are particularly powerful/  Every other Malkioni (Loskalmi, Seshnegi, Carmanians etc) has reached a philosophical compromise between ideals and reality.

I see what you mean metcalph.

I would still include the Mostali in your "pure sorcery" list however. 

I accept that the Western societies have for the most part made accommodations with the theists and shamans.  I mean, look at the snake legged lineage of the Kings of Seshnela, am I right?  No doubt the Brithini would view this as being entirely polluting, and the fact that the humans partaking of these "abominations" have lost their immortality is proof of the fact that they have strayed from Malkion's true message.  The fact is, most sorcerous societies have adopted levels of other systems to make up the deficit in power that pure reliance on sorcery would enforce.

As to whether the Vadeli and Brithini are powerful or not, well, I would argue that they actually are amongst the most powerful civilizations on Glorantha.  The Brithini have Zzabur after all, who literally closed the oceans, before making the sub contient of Brithos go invisible (or something). The Vadeli may be a shadow of their former selves, but they are basically arms dealing chaos wizards who follow a philosophy of logical psychopathy.  They may not be enormously strong, but they are often described as being the worst people to run afoul of in Glorantha.  Similarly the Dwarves are going to haul the landmass of Slon into Jrustela soon. 

They might be weaker individually than the shamans and theists, but the sorcerers move collectively with serious world shaking grunt when they get going.  Presently we don't have rules for scaling the sort of power these societies can wield with sorcery.

We should also perhaps mention the sorcery of the Eastern Isles, the pseudo sorcery of the Kralori Exarchs, Lunar Sorcery, Delecti, Orathorn, Muse Roost, and whatever the sorcery of Pavis' Iffinbix cult was all about.

Edited December 16, 2020 by Darius West

[metcalph]

1 minute ago, Darius West said:

I would still include the Mostali in your "pure sorcery" list however. 

On the basis of the RQ Bestiary, I daresay the Dwarves have little to do with magic as much as possible and that includes sorcery.  Their magic is this-world technology (i.e, alchemy, gunpwoder etc etc).for the phyical world is their god.  On the basis of the silver mostali, you could call them a pure sorcery culture but the others are not.

1 minute ago, Darius West said:

They might be weaker individually than the shamans and theists, but the sorcerers move collectively with serious world shaking grunt when they get going.  Presently we don't have rules for scaling the sort of power these societies can wield with sorcery.

Even Jeff were to unviel sorcery rules that made sorcerors even more powerful, sorcery will still be next to useless for the non-sorcerors.  A neutralize damage spell, for example,  is weaker than Heal Wound or Heal 6 and is limited by the level of read/write.  Thus the Brithini and Vadeli will  be far more cautious of wordly battles than other societies - they will dislike sudden encounters with heavily armed strangers were things can go south in less than a minute.  If the two sides were equal in strangth then they might consider surrender whereas a Loskalmi or Orlanthi might just duke it out.  

 

1 minute ago, Darius West said:

We should also perhaps mention the sorcery of the Eastern Isles, the pseudo sorcery of the Kralori Exarchs, Lunar Sorcery, Delecti, Orathorn, and whatever the sorcery of Pavis' Iffinbix cult was all about.

Those aren't really pure sorcery societies that the OP was talking about.

[Jeff]

15 minutes ago, metcalph said:

On the basis of the RQ Bestiary, I daresay the Dwarves have little to do with magic as much as possible and that includes sorcery.  Their magic is this-world technology (i.e, alchemy, gunpwoder etc etc).for the phyical world is their god.  On the basis of the silver mostali, you could call them a pure sorcery culture but the others are not.

Even Jeff were to unviel sorcery rules that made sorcerors even more powerful, sorcery will still be next to useless for the non-sorcerors.  A neutralize damage spell, for example,  is weaker than Heal Wound or Heal 6 and is limited by the level of read/write.  Thus the Brithini and Vadeli will  be far more cautious of wordly battles than other societies - they will dislike sudden encounters with heavily armed strangers were things can go south in less than a minute.  If the two sides were equal in strangth then they might consider surrender whereas a Loskalmi or Orlanthi might just duke it out.  

 

Those aren't really pure sorcery societies that the OP was talking about.

Another reason the Brithini and Vadeli are far more cautious is because of their immortality and lack of an afterlife.

[Darius West]

19 hours ago, icebrand said:

> Sorcerers are scientists, philosophers and alchemists, unequivocally

I'm sorry but sorcerers can be a lot of things. Several Gloranthan societies use sorcery as their one and only magic system. 

Saying this is akin to saying theists are warriors. It is not correct with the setting as published (at least pre-rqg)

There is for the most part, a somewhat strict caste delineation between Talari, Zzaburi, Horali and Dronari.  In most sorcerous societies the warriors don't know any sorcery, and nor do the other castes.  Now this is obviously not true of all sorcerous societies, but sorcery is tied primarily to the rune of Law, so processes of logic and order are pretty intrinsic to the thinking of these societies I would argue.  To become a reliable sorcerer is time consuming, and as with most things, if you spread your efforts too thin across too many disciplines you become a jack of all trades and a master of none.  I am not saying that dilettante sorcerers can't exist however.

19 hours ago, icebrand said:

> He likes order, and archiving things, and is secretly a bit intimidated by field work and its risks.

> The upshot of this is that sorcerers fear going into danger

I'm sorry I don't see gerlant flamesword or sir meriathan or ethilrist as "liking to archive" or "intimidated by fieldwork" or "fearing danger".

Yes, Gerlant and Ethilrist are both likely related to Arkat by blood, and likely raised somewhat Hrestoli due to Arkat's pragmatism.  Meriatan is also a Hrestoli.  These guys are also heroes, not your average Zzaburi caste born Joe Sorcerer.  I also don't see any of them exercising the raw magical power of Zzabur, like closing the oceans and separating Brithos from Glorantha.  Arkat was pretty much a Brithini convert to Hrestolism by the time he left the West and became a Humakti, and this was the company he kept.  They are westerners and knights before they are really sorcerers I would argue.

I would agree that those of Hrestoli background might not be afraid of fieldwork, but they are your classic dilletantes.  They spend X years trying to master agriculture, then X years trying to master fighting, then X years learning sorcery, then X years learning how to rule.  You need to ask yourself, how many smart kids get out of the farming caste only to die in battle before ever becoming sorcerers because they had low HP or no damage bonus?  And how much weaker will a 40 year old Hrestoli sorcerer be, who might have been a sorcerer for 8 years, as compared to a Rokari who has spent 25 years  on sorcery? 

The Hrestoli system is great in terms of its fairness and apparent (but hugely overstated) social mobility, but when we scratch the surface we find that the rich families can pay to have their children tutored while the poor cannot.  Also, ultimately the system promotes people to rise not to the level of their greatest competence, but to the level of their incompetence.  Some people fail as farmers and stay as farmers.  Some warriors die, but others will stay as warriors because they are too incompetent to rise.  Some will make it to wizards, but then some of them will fail to rise any further, will they be great wizards therefore?  I think not.  Finally the cream of the crop will rise to be the Talari caste of nobility, and while they likely don't have a stat under 15, you still have to wonder how these noob nobles who rose purely on their merits will actually handle their new power.  You also need to worry about the lack of recognition for artisans and merchants, as well as miners and timber workers etc. within the Hrestoli system.

In short, while I like the career path of the Hrestoli and their meritocracy better from a player perspective, I think their sorcerers will be way too handy with a lance and sword, and like good jocks, will be struggling with their sorcery homework.  For sorcerers they will make damn good warriors, but are they really sorcerers?  Really they rise to the level of their incompetence and then stop.  I like meritocracy, but the simple fact is that caste specialists who have 17 years more experience in their born field will be better at their jobs, and they will like archiving, and order, and fear fieldwork.

Edited December 16, 2020 by Darius West