Spirit world

[Jokum 14]

How do the spirit world differ between Waha and Daka Fal shamans? It is said the outlook is similar to everyones culture. The Rulebook gives an example for Praxian culture which is seemingly Waha based: herds etc.

Would a Daka Fal shaman see it in different way? Waha would be based on herds and surviving with clan/tribe in mundane world, Daka Fal would be considered in ancestors and  continuation of family traditions and knowledge/wisdom and ofcourse the defferentiation of Life and death. If Daka Fal shaman would see it based on this, i'll come up with only some very abstract ideas... Waha seem to be a cult for a larger society while Daka Fal seem to be almost a private cult where a shaman teaches their apprentices.

Is it possible for anyone else than a shaman to travel to Spirit world? Discorporation runespell seems to handle only the moving discorporated in mundane world. 

Also is the Land of the Dead situated in Spirit world? Are The Dead people to Be found there or somewhere in other plains? 

Would be very nice to find writings of Rune Quest world from the perspective of a shaman.

I see the Summon specific ancestor or incarnate ancestor runespells very powerful, If any ancestral Heroes are known... ...and the bloodlines go back to Grandfather Mortal...

Edited November 13, 2020 by Jokum

[David Scott 3,777]

On 11/13/2020 at 1:32 PM, Jokum said:

How do the spirit world differ between Waha and Daka Fal shamans? It is said the outlook is similar to everyones culture. The Rulebook gives an example for Praxian culture which is seemingly Waha based: herds etc.

A Praxian Daka Fal shaman would have a spirit world very similar to a waha shaman. Where a waha shaman might journey out to meet Waha himself in the Herd Guard, a Daka Fal shaman would work around the great fire at the centre of the herd and summon ancestor there among friends.

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Would a Daka Fal shaman see it in different way? Waha would be based on herds and surviving with clan/tribe in mundane world, Daka Fal would be considered in ancestors and  continuation of family traditions and knowledge/wisdom and ofcourse the defferentiation of Life and death. If Daka Fal shaman would see it based on this, i'll come up with only some very abstract ideas... Waha seem to be a cult for a larger society while Daka Fal seem to be almost a private cult where a shaman teaches their apprentices.

Waha is the Culture Hero, Daka Fal is the ancestor guide, keep the clan connected with their past. For many Waha is their ancestor.

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Is it possible for anyone else than a shaman to travel to Spirit world? Discorporation runespell seems to handle only the moving discorporated in mundane world.

Yes, some shaman can take others with them. They have Shamanic abilities like Spirit Traveller, Discorporate other or even Spirit Snatch. Mostly in great ceremonies, the Axix Mundi is expanded to include all but lay members and everyone is in the spirit world around the fire. Participants never wander off they know they won't return.

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Also is the Land of the Dead situated in Spirit world? Are The Dead people to Be found there or somewhere in other plains?

The Land of the Dead, is a bit more complex as each great/spirit god has their own. They lie beyond Daka Fal's court of Judgement. Even Daka Fal cannot enter another god's afterlife, but he can call them out.

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Would be very nice to find writings of Rune Quest world from the perspective of a shaman.

You can find more here:

https://basicroleplaying.org/topic/7955-im-still-confused-about-spirit-travel/?tab=comments#comment-114593

https://basicroleplaying.org/topic/9621-gaining-shamanic-abilities/?tab=comments#comment-141711

https://basicroleplaying.org/topic/7955-im-still-confused-about-spirit-travel/?tab=comments#comment-114771

https://basicroleplaying.org/topic/11950-spirits-in-spirit-world/?tab=comments#comment-182675

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I see the Summon specific ancestor or incarnate ancestor runespells very powerful, If any ancestral Heroes are known... ...and the bloodlines go back to Grandfather Mortal...

Yes, look at a specific version of this from Waha - Call Founder on page 322. A Waha shaman who is also a Daka Fal priest would be able to incarnate a Founder. This is the realm of powerful magics. The summoner would need to be powerful enough to manage it. 

Edited November 22, 2020 by Scotty

[Jokum 14]

A scetch i made of our apprentice shaman player character - Talkil- and his npc-grandfather - Toras 

I don't know what would be characteristic for Pol Joni - Daka Fal shamans.

There are amazing photos of real world shamans by googling which i used as inspiration.

 

Edited December 20, 2020 by Jokum

[soltakss 5,073]

6 hours ago, Jokum said:

A scetch i made of our apprentice shaman player character - Talkil- and his npc-grandfather - Toras 

I don't know what would be characteristic for Pol Joni - Daka Fal shamans.

There are amazing photos of real world shamans by googling which i used as inspiration.

That looks like an apprentice shaman to me.

 

[Akhôrahil 2,351]

On 11/13/2020 at 2:32 PM, Jokum said:

I see the Summon specific ancestor or incarnate ancestor runespells very powerful, If any ancestral Heroes are known... ...and the bloodlines go back to Grandfather Mortal...

I personally don’t think you have access to gods or heroes in your ancestral line, not with these spells at least. Every Heortling is going to have Heort and Vingkot in their ancestral line, but they have more important things to do. Hero-level ancestors should be cults or subcults, IMO.

[Jokum 14]

4 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

I personally don’t think you have access to gods or heroes in your ancestral line, not with these spells at least. Every Heortling is going to have Heort and Vingkot in their ancestral line, but they have more important things to do. Hero-level ancestors should be cults or subcults, IMO.

Yes, you're propably right.

I have this "trouble" all the Time: how to follow the rules of the game so we don't "accidentally" do something that would brake the game world balance?

Althought, some of the summoned random ancestors could be very powerful(5d6+6) compared to maximum human attributes. ...but that's not a deity level either.

Possible hero summoning could need a special task before it could be done. ....maybe even a heroquest level stuff.

 

[Jokum 14]

On 12/21/2020 at 5:25 AM, Akhôrahil said:

I personally don’t think you have access to gods or heroes in your ancestral line, not with these spells at least. Every Heortling is going to have Heort and Vingkot in their ancestral line, but they have more important things to do. Hero-level ancestors should be cults or subcults, IMO.

I found a text that confirms your thoughts. Hero level individuals are no more reqular ancestors:

"They operate as immortals instead of ancestors, and receive their own sacrifices instead of partaking of the sacrifices made to the ancestors." Hero wars- Thunder rebels, p.95

There's also a description for the ancestor's day celebration p.94-95

Edited December 23, 2020 by Jokum

[soltakss 5,073]

On 12/21/2020 at 7:45 AM, Jokum said:

I have this "trouble" all the Time: how to follow the rules of the game so we don't "accidentally" do something that would brake the game world balance?

That is easy - Stop worrying about it.

 

Very little done in a game will break game world balance. Anything your PCs do has probably already been done ten times bigger by NPCs. The units in the Dragon Pass boardgame have abilities that can destroy anything within a hex, or nearby hexes, for example. 

So, stop worrying about game balance and just enjoy the game. That's what I do.

[Charles 255]

1 hour ago, Jokum said:

I found a text that confirms your thoughts. Hero level individuals are no more reqular ancestors:

"They operate as immortals instead of ancestors, and receive their own sacrifices instead of partaking of the sacrifices made to the ancestors." Hero wars- Thunder rebels, p.95

There's also a description for the ancestor's day celebration p.94-95

I wouldn’t read too much into that as a guide to personal access to ancestor Heroes, as it’s more about the Heortling respect / worship of ancestors as a group or even as embodied tradition.

From some of Greg’s stories, anyone that can recite their (believable) ancestry to a Hero can learn to summon / incarnate / use their magic. However, given the disruptions of each Age, I doubt that few in the greater Dragon Pass region (and I mean almost none) can truly recite their ancestry back to the Dawn or before. But some appear to do so.

I think that there’s a bit of a trick to it 😀

I suspect that the belief of both the person and the belief of their community play a part. If an invented ancestry is kept going for a generation or two, then it becomes real. Creating ancestry to Heort or Vingkot is difficult because there are so many that would want to try, and few of these supposed ancestral lines actually match up. So general community belief works against it. Similarly with important recent heroes such as Sartar.

So if a player makes it part of their character creation then why not.

And there’s another ‘trick’ that has been used (look up Lokamayadon). An allied or bound spirit can become part of a character and that spirit can have the required ancestry 🤣

Edited December 23, 2020 by Charles

[Sir_Godspeed 1,992]

On 12/23/2020 at 9:50 AM, Charles said:

I suspect that the belief of both the person and the belief of their community play a part. If an invented ancestry is kept going for a generation or two, then it becomes real. Creating ancestry to Heort or Vingkot is difficult because there are so many that would want to try, and few of these supposed ancestral lines actually match up. So general community belief works against it. Similarly with important recent heroes such as Sartar.

 

I definitely think that's the case. In fact, I believe that's MOSTLY the case. Few genuine genealogies have probably survived since before the Dawn, or the end of the First or Second Ages. And then there's the whole deal with the Dara Happan Emperors and their, imho, highly suspect genealogies/king listss, so I'd guess it's a Glorantha-wide thing. Which makes sense, Glorantha is all about the power of myth*, not the power of, I dunno, genetics or properly managed inheritance portfolios (unless the two fall under myth.  )

(*not that a genealogical link being real precludes it from being a myth either, of course)

[Jokum 14]

Any movies or animations that has any similarities with Gloranthan spirit world worth showing to players?

I'm surpriced there's no easy to find "dream" sequenses of plains and campfires...

 

And how or when does an apprentice shaman gain the spirit rune?

Edited April 7 by Jokum
...added questions.

[David Scott 3,777]

4 hours ago, Jokum said:

And how or when does an apprentice shaman gain the spirit rune?

They don't. The RQ Bestiary says on page 164:

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All disembodied spirits are associated with the Spirit Rune.

As neither are disembodied spirits, neither have the rune, their form is Man & Beast (or Plant & Man for elves). The fetch has the spirit rune and when the shaman travels into the spirit world they swap forms. Those using Discorporation magics can temporarily separate their spirit in to the spirit world, but it's a temporary form (unless they die).

[David Scott 3,777]

5 hours ago, Jokum said:

Any movies or animations that has any similarities with Gloranthan spirit world worth showing to players?

I always find Huichol yarn paintings very near the mark (and of course the basis of the spirit art in RQG). You can find some animated if you look around:

Every day in the spirit world:

 

 

 

Not Huichol, but has some great spirit landscape imagery and shows a ritual for dealing with ferocious polar bears

 

[Jokum 14]

2 hours ago, David Scott said:

They don't. The RQ Bestiary says on page 164:

As neither are disembodied spirits, neither have the rune, their form is Man & Beast (or Plant & Man for elves). The fetch has the spirit rune and when the shaman travels into the spirit world they swap forms. Those using Discorporation magics can temporarily separate their spirit in to the spirit world, but it's a temporary form (unless they die).

The Shaman -Keronorl- of the Wild temple seems to have a spirit rune and i suppose he's human. Man 90%, spirit 75%.

In the Smoking ruins book.

Edited April 7 by Jokum

[g33k 3,400]

Also, I consider source-culture as much as Cult/Patron for Spirit-world stuff.

Praxians will almost all discorporate into a place near the center of a tribal camp, withherd-beasts all 'round & maybe a fire (likely a small fire fueled by dry dung, because wood is so rare that burning it is wasteful and "wrong.").

A shaman from Sartar might discorporate and find themselves in a big family-hearth kitchen, or a great-hall / moot, or even a "Great Temple" (but with symbologies from multiple gods, not just one), for example.

Pentan Golden Bow might find a vast grassland with the sun directly overhead... horses and tribesmen around (similar to Prax).

Etc...

[Hijabg 28]

I like to think about the spirit world as if it was the Internet. Most places, things and peoples will have their place there, and you'll be able to interact with some aspects of them, but you will be able to travel between them as if there was no distance. Also, depending on your cultural interface, you might see things others might not, or see them differently. There is the easily accessible part of the spirit world, with publicly accessible shrine-terminals you can unlock with the right combination. There are also parts of the spirit plane that are quite similar to the Dark Net, and that's the place an apprentice hacker might have to explore until he finds the exploits he'll need in his fight against the Bad Man. 

[David Scott 3,777]

14 hours ago, Jokum said:

The Shaman -Keronorl- of the Wild temple seems to have a spirit rune and i suppose he's human. Man 90%, spirit 75%.

In the Smoking ruins book.

This is an error and I'll add it to the Corrections and Q&A, thanks for spotting it.

https://wellofdaliath.chaosium.com/home/catalogue/publishers/chaosium/cha4039-the-smoking-ruin-and-other-stories-2019/cha4039-the-smoking-ruin-and-other-stories-qa/

Edited April 8 by David Scott

[Bill the barbarian 2,069]

On 4/7/2021 at 9:56 AM, David Scott said:

I always find Huichol yarn paintings very near the mark (and of course the basis of the spirit art in RQG). You can find some animated if you look around:

Every day in the spirit world:

The Mexican stuff was great. but I have to say thanks for the inclusion of that last one from the NFB! A great use of our tax payers dollar, the NFB  has been helping me (hell a great number of Canadians) to see the world just a little differently!

Fantastic!

Edited April 10 by Bill the barbarian