"Charisma" rune-spell ... 4 cults only?

[g33k]

Am I reading correctly that Ernalda, Yinkin, and Eurmal are the only cults that have "native" access to Charisma (and Orlanth gets it from Eurmal)?

That surprises me... I'd have thought that would be a 7M spell, too; and possibly other Earth goddesses like Uleria!

 

(edit -- plus of course we've got Jeff's big ol'  Gods Project  barreling down on us; no telling WHAT that'll bring!)

Edited November 17, 2020 by g33k
GaGoG

[David Scott]

3 hours ago, g33k said:

Am I reading correctly that Ernalda, Yinkin, and Eurmal are the only cults that have "native" access to Charisma (and Orlanth gets it from Eurmal)?

That surprises me... I'd have thought that would be a 7M spell, too; and possibly other Earth goddesses like Uleria!

(edit -- plus of course we've got Jeff's big ol'  Gods Project  barreling down on us; no telling WHAT that'll bring!)

Yes, it's part of their mythology. I don't recall any 7M having a seduction aspect. Hon-eel has it though, along with the Twin stars and the spirit cults; White Bull and Dolphin sister.

[g33k]

9 hours ago, David Scott said:

... I don't recall any 7M having a seduction aspect. Hon-eel has it though ...

Exactly.

Where did Hon-eel get it, if not as a Lunar spell?
And, having it (however she got it)... doesn't that make it now a Lunar magic?  Maybe it's only through Sedenya, not a "mere" 7M magic?

Hon-eel's exploits are a significant piece of the Lunar mythography, and having that spell missing feels like a piece of Lunar Rune-Magic is missing.

It also looks like a "missing" bit when you look at the Lunar-vs-StormTribe situation:  What with YT echoing H, IO's take on LM, etc... there's an awful lot of Romans-version-of-Greek vibe; and as an important spell available to Big E *and* to Big O, it seems like the Lunars "should" have their own version (even if only as a One Use rune magic).

YGWV.  So will mine.  😉

 

[PhilHibbs]

37 minutes ago, g33k said:

And, having it (however she got it)... doesn't that make it now a Lunar magic?

Nobody is saying "It isn't Lunar magic", it's just that the one Lunar cult listed in the basic book doesn't have it.

[g33k]

4 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

Nobody is saying "It isn't Lunar magic", it's just that the one Lunar cult listed in the basic book doesn't have it.

meh...  7M is the "central" cult for the Lunars, the way ErnaldOrlanth is for those folk.

And I don't think RQG is the "basic" book so much as the CORE book, the "central" book.  Given that the Storm Tribe has *four* cults that get it, it continues to look like an oversight.  Returning to the accounts of Hon-eel, I'd see that as the single most-evident use of Charisma in the game's mythography.

I guess I could understand it as Sedenya being the "rulers" cult (like ErnaldOrlanth), so it makes sense to come from Her not from the 7M ... (maybe?) 

[Rodney Dangerduck]

13 minutes ago, g33k said:

meh...  7M is the "central" cult for the Lunars, the way ErnaldOrlanth is for those folk.

This is where we disagree on "canon".  IMO, 7M is the provincial, "missionary" aspect of the Lunars.  Sedenya / Natha/ whatever you end up calling it is the real central cult, and they should certainly have the Charisma spell.  And I agree that there may be other cults that got overlooked.

[metcalph]

51 minutes ago, g33k said:

meh...  7M is the "central" cult for the Lunars, the way ErnaldOrlanth is for those folk.

No, it isn't.  Seven Mothers is explicitly a cult of the borderlands.

Quote

The cult is specially powerful at the edges of the Empire
where they form instructive temples to serve as bases of Lunar
operation. Thus they are ever at the beginning of the Empire
just as they were at the beginning of the goddess. Even within
the Empire there are many who are content with knowing this
superficiality of the Red Goddess and worship only the Seven
Mothers, without exploring the potentials or ramifications of the
individuals.

[...]

The Seven Mothers is the guardian cult of the borderlands, and
is an official state cult responsible for keeping foes of the Empire
out and admitting friends of the Empire

Cults of Prax p39

The cult of the Seven Mothers is the political and magical
representative for the Lunar religion in the borderland regions
of the Empire.

Cults of Prax p40.

The description of the Seven Mothers cult as a superficiality is quite a burn.

 

[David Scott]

14 hours ago, g33k said:

Where did Hon-eel get it,

Likely as part of her mythology. Hon-eel the dancer likely gained Charisma on one of her many heroquests. You can read up on her in the Glorantha Sourcebook. It's clear to me that's why she has Charisma.

14 hours ago, g33k said:

if not as a Lunar spell?
And, having it (however she got it)... doesn't that make it now a Lunar magic?  Maybe it's only through Sedenya, not a "mere" 7M magic?

It's subject to the Lunar cycle as are all Lunar magics. 

14 hours ago, g33k said:

Hon-eel's exploits are a significant piece of the Lunar mythography, and having that spell missing feels like a piece of Lunar Rune-Magic is missing.

Rune spells are an expression of a god's mythology. Don't forget Lunar gods are ascended humans, so their mythologies aren't as deep.

14 hours ago, g33k said:

YGWV.  So will mine.  😉

 

So a shorter version of all this would have been - I have decided that in my Glorantha the Lunar pantheon should have better access to the Charisma spell.

[Jeff]

11 hours ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

This is where we disagree on "canon".  IMO, 7M is the provincial, "missionary" aspect of the Lunars.  Sedenya / Natha/ whatever you end up calling it is the real central cult, and they should certainly have the Charisma spell.  And I agree that there may be other cults that got overlooked.

The Red Goddess does not have Charisma.

[Goldennose]

In my Glorantha I would make Estal Donge a worshipper of Hon-Eel or subcult of that goddess and she would have Charisma-spell... And spells not listed in Godlearner Books.

 

[g33k]

6 hours ago, Jeff said:

The Red Goddess does not have Charisma.

On the one hand, I just wanna snark on that one-liner (pretending I don't understand it's the Rune-spell) because the Red Goddess most certainly has an extraordinary CHA!

On the other hand:  TYVM @Jeff -- it's great to have this settled authoritatively!

May i be so bold as to further ask (if you know yet; is the Gods Project complete-enough to be sure?) if Lunar worshipers have ANY way to get the Charisma Rune-spell in the normal course of things (prayer & POW-sac for +1 Rune Pool & a Rune-Spell), any Lunar cult that offers it?  Or is it something that Lunars would need to heroquest to gain, as a "special" (not normally-available) Rune-spell?

Edited November 18, 2020 by g33k

[jajagappa]

5 hours ago, g33k said:

any Lunar cult that offers it?

David already noted that Hon-eel provides it.  And Hon-eel was the one who courted and won the Sun for her lover.

And I believe Hwarin Dalthippa may offer it as well.

[Rodney Dangerduck]

24 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

David already noted that Hon-eel provides it.  And Hon-eel was the one who courted and won the Sun for her lover.

And I believe Hwarin Dalthippa may offer it as well.

There's been discussions with Nick and Jeff that Red Emperor has it (at least, his "voice" does) as well as the city cult of Glamour.  I assumed they provide it to the Red Goddess (or vice versa) but apparently not.

[Lordabdul]

11 hours ago, g33k said:

May i be so bold as to further ask (if you know yet; is the Gods Project complete-enough to be sure?) if Lunar worshipers have ANY way to get the Charisma Rune-spell in the normal course of things (prayer & POW-sac for +1 Rune Pool & a Rune-Spell), any Lunar cult that offers it?  Or is it something that Lunars would need to heroquest to gain, as a "special" (not normally-available) Rune-spell?

Don't forget that the Charisma Rune spell as described in the RQG isn't set in stone as the only ever ever way for anybody across the entire Glorantha to look pretty and sound good. There might be other Rune spells and gifts that give similar or related advantages.

Edited November 19, 2020 by lordabdul

[soltakss]

There is a big difference between a Deity/Demigod/Hero who has an ability and those who grant that in the form of magic.

Many powerful beings have more abilities than they grant as spells. HeroQuestors can pick these up as abilities by performing HeroQuests.

Also, the Lunars don't share all their spells, in the same that the Lightbringers don't. The Seven Mothers cult is unusual as it is made up of spells from other cults. But Hon-Eel having a spell does not mean that all Lunar cults get it, in the same way that not all Lunar cults have access to spells from Etyries, or from the Seven Mothers.

[Scorus]

I would guess that Hon-eel got Charisma from Eurmal. Whether she wrested it out of him or Eurmal gave it to her as part of a trick (on her or someone else) or he just was in the mood to do so randomly that day (or all of the above) would make a good myth.

[David Scott]

11 minutes ago, Scorus said:

I would guess that Hon-eel got Charisma from Eurmal. Whether she wrested it out of him or Eurmal gave it to her as part of a trick (on her or someone else) or he just was in the mood to do so randomly that day (or all of the above) would make a good myth.

Or when she danced her way to the skies in one of her quests, she encountered the Twin Stars (who are Lunar spirits) and learned it from them...

[Joerg]

Hon-eel entered the Ernaldan rites of Heruvernalda. Why look for other sources if her connection to Ernalda is already well known?

[David Scott]

13 hours ago, Joerg said:

Hon-eel entered the Ernaldan rites of Heruvernalda. Why look for other sources if her connection to Ernalda is already well known?

Where's the link between Hon-eel and Heruvernalda?

[Joerg]

22 minutes ago, David Scott said:

Where's the link between Hon-eel and Heruvernalda?

Heruvernalda is the Kordros Island Temple of Ernalda mentioned in King of Sartar, p.102 Hardcover edition/pdf

Quote

Hon‑eel the Artess came to the land in 1490. With subtle enchantments and sweeping magic 
powers the Lunar Heroine invaded the most secret rites of the Kordros Island Temple of 
Ernalda, and thereby convinced the participants that she was and had always been one among 
them.

Also p.21 and p.179 in the Sourcebook.

 

Edited November 20, 2020 by Joerg

[David Scott]

29 minutes ago, Joerg said:

Heruvernalda is the Kordros Island Temple of Ernalda mentioned in King of Sartar, p.102 Hardcover edition/pdf

Thanks, it's the first time I've realised the size of Kordros Island I didn't realise it was that big (I'd previously imagined it was just around the dunstop area).

[Akhôrahil]

On 11/17/2020 at 10:33 AM, David Scott said:

Yes, it's part of their mythology. I don't recall any 7M having a seduction aspect. Hon-eel has it though, along with the Twin stars and the spirit cults; White Bull and Dolphin sister.

Seseine, one would assume?