Magic Weapons vs. Spirits

[Scotty]

52 minutes ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

A question about the shamanic hability "Show Spirit" (p361)

Does it allow a corporeal being to attack the spirit, once the spirit is "showed" ? or is it just a kind of picture and not a materialization of the spirit ?

If engaged, to attack the spirit with weapons, , the shaman would need to have Show Spirit 2, All spirits easily and clearly visible.

Unengaged, it would need a search roll with level 1.

[tnli]

21 hours ago, Scotty said:

Some weedy ones are harmed by spirit magic.

See Bestary, Spirit Powers, page 165.

I often use weedy spirits against adventurers, keeps them sharp.

OK, I can't seem to find anything on this in the page indicated, nor in the whole spirits section. Would you mind pointing it out to me? 

[Scotty]

12 minutes ago, Kloster said:

What about Sorcery or Sorcery enhanced weapons?

see Attacking with Weapons and Spells in the Q&A.

[Rodney Dangerduck]

5 hours ago, Scotty said:

For further info have a look at Galdr as an example of magical words and singing

Thanks for the great reference, very interesting.  I still doubt that any of those examples can be "sung" in 12 seconds.  Maybe Gilbert and Sullivan style?  🙂

[Scotty]

13 minutes ago, tnli said:

OK, I can't seem to find anything on this in the page indicated, nor in the whole spirits section. Would you mind pointing it out to me?

The Spirit Powers list in the Bestiary is by no means complete:

Quote

The gamemaster should create unique or tailored spirits by giving them one or more powers. Everything imaginable exists in the Spirit World

On page 167 after Telekinesis add:

Weedy

This spirit is a pathetic example of its kind. Weedy spirits can be easily affected by a single effect. Examples include; vulnerability to specific spirit magic (choose one), easily blown away by the wind, and scared of the dark.

Edited November 23, 2020 by Scotty

[Scotty]

6 minutes ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

Thanks for the great reference, very interesting.  I still doubt that any of those examples can be "sung" in 12 seconds.  Maybe Gilbert and Sullivan style?  🙂

Have a look at Kulning as well, it has a relationship to Galdr. You can hear it in battle scenes in the Vikings TV series (and in Frozen II!) have a listen especially at the short staccato elements. Singing doesn't need words. (You may need to leave any ideas of what singing is behind). It's these that would make the up the singing for augments here. Once you've started and got the augment, you would continue singing it as you can use it in the same roll in following rounds. It's also how you would use singing as a bonus to your fighting abilities.

 

[Rodney Dangerduck]

@Scotty I'll work on my Xena ululate war cries!

Thanks for clarifying that singing is the augment, not sung.  That works for me.

[Trotsky]

I think I missed this in my summary:

Casting Spells: corporeal entities may only cast offensive spells against spirits engaged with them (eg. Disruption). Corporeal entities require INTx5 to cast

[Bill the barbarian]

1 hour ago, Scotty said:

Have a look at Kulning as well, it has a relationship to Galdr. You can hear it in battle scenes in the Vikings TV series (and in Frozen II!) have a listen especially at the short staccato elemen

Though a little cheesy (expecially in the company of its predecessors, thanks for sharing Scotty) this brings to mind a (melee only, unfortunately) combat in Strange Magic that begins augmented by song and becomes augmented by dance. They do cheat as at about 2 minutes they use song and dance. I believe one can only use one skill to augment... bad form combatants!

Unless they do not add a new augment but continue to use it as one augment in terms of bonus or malus 

 

Cheers

Edited November 23, 2020 by Bill the barbarian

[Scotty]

30 minutes ago, Bill the barbarian said:

Though a little cheesy

OMG

[Bill the barbarian]

Just now, Scotty said:

OMG

Fromage?

[Scotty]

1 hour ago, Trotsky said:

Casting Spells: corporeal entities may only cast offensive spells against spirits engaged with them (eg. Disruption). Corporeal entities require INTx5 to cast

Yes, Combatants, page 366.

[Lordabdul]

6 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

Good point - I thought this had been errata:ed into something more like Arrow Trance, but that hasn’t happened (yet).

Even if you consider Sword Trance to be a proper trance, you could argue that it's allowed: Sword Trance means your character is only focused on waving their sword to fight enemies. It doesn't necessarily mean that it has to be "fleshy" enemies only.

1 hour ago, Trotsky said:

I think I missed this in my summary:

Casting Spells: corporeal entities may only cast offensive spells against spirits engaged with them (eg. Disruption). Corporeal entities require INTx5 to cast

That's a great example of the type of multiple-interpretation wording we can find in the rulebook 😋

It could be read as:

1. If you're going to cast an offensive spell, it can only be targeted at the spirit that's engaged with you (i.e. you can't attack another spirit, but you can cast other types of spells)
2. The only type of spell you can cast is an offensive spell targeted at the spirit that's engaged with you (i.e. you can't cast defensive spells on you)

Of course I'm 99% sure you were thinking of (1) when you wrote it...

Edited November 23, 2020 by lordabdul

[Trotsky]

Interesting, I would not consider the second option due to the location of the ‘only’ in the sentence.

[Lordabdul]

22 minutes ago, Trotsky said:

Interesting, I would not consider the second option due to the location of the ‘only’ in the sentence.

I genuinely read it first with the 2nd meaning! I even started writing a reply saying that I didn't see anything of the sort in the rules... and then, as is often the case with me writing on the internet, I paused, took some time to read back what I wrote, and asked myself "is there any way I can look more stupid than usual with this?". That's when I realized I was reading it wrong.

It's very probable that this is an ESL problem. Different languages have different sentence structures, so whatever "mental grouping" naturally comes to mind to some people might come differently to other people. In this case, if I read "So and so may only <BLAH>", to me "<BLAH>" is the only thing so and so can do (it would take extra stuff like obvious punctuation or heavy-handed wording to break up "<BLAH>"). I believe this is one reason it's very important rulebooks have editors from various backgrounds and cultures.

Edited November 23, 2020 by lordabdul

[Trotsky]

I keep my ‘special stupidity’ for reading on the net - what you say is so true...

[DreadDomain]

11 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

It would, but since you can have absurd skill levels due to Sword Trance if you’re a Humakti, you might be able to just power through.

But even then, in a quick contest, you are most likely worse off if you split your attack. Imagine I have 200% in Sword against a spirit with 100% in spirit combat. If I do not split, the sprit takes -100% on his skill so he has 5% of succeeding and 95% chance of failing. I have 95% chance of succeeding and 5% chance of failing. Odds are I will win and inflict my damage every turn.

If I split, I attack twice at 100% vs the spirit 100% who, by the artefact of the quick contest, will also attack me twice. Chances are we will tie quite often and when we don't, on average, the spirit will inflict its spirit damage to me as often as I inflict my damage to him. Not a good trade.

Unless you get close to 300% in your weapon skill...  

11 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

So oh, another question - are you allowed to use your Spirit Combat skill while under a Sword Trance?

In this example, aren't you supposed to use your sword skill to attack the spirit? In which case would you use Spirit Combat? 

[DreadDomain]

Good summary Trotsky. But wait...

8 hours ago, Trotsky said:

Spirit/discorporate being: no INTx5 to cast spells – go off on SR1

Isn't supposed to be at SR1 plus extra MP expenditure as normal? A 10 MP spell would go off at SR 10 right? On p.366 under Combattants, it says that "spells cast by a spirit, go off on strike rank 1" so if by reading this sentence I could understand that spells go off on strike rank one irrespective of the number of magic point but I would also understand that it applies to spirit only (not discorporate being).

Personally I simply interpreted it in its looser form of "spirit cast spirit spells normally on SR 1 (plus MP-1) and spirit combat takes place on SR 12"

8 hours ago, Trotsky said:

Resolving Weapon Combat: Weapons attack on regular Strike Rank – Spirit defends with Spirit Combat – opposed roll as above.

It's a bit of a bizarre quirk that by attacking with a weapon, you effectively make the quick contest happen earlier in the turn...

8 hours ago, Trotsky said:

Skills over 100% reduce opponent skill as usual and can be split. 

... and that by splitting your attack you make the spirit attack you more often. I supposed it it rationalisable because by engaging with "physical actions" changes the pace and frequency of the "spiritual contact" (I am probably over thinking this).

Also, don't split your attack unless your skill is in the range of 3 times the spirit skill. 

8 hours ago, Trotsky said:

Multiple Enemies: Resolve each combat separately. Melee weapon use limited to SR restrictions, but unlimited Spirit Combat rolls may be made with no penalty

And now I may see and example where you might need to use both your weapon skill and your spirit combat skill.

You are engaged with 2 spirits. On SR 7, you attack one with your magically enhanced sword. Normal quick contest ensues. That quick contest resolves the attack spirit 1 initiated in SR 12. However, come SR 12, spirit 2 attacks. Normal quick contest take place. Can I use my sword skill to defend? It's not a normal attack. But maybe it is because, if I win the quick contest, I inflict damage. In that case, I do not have enough SR to engage in the contest with my sword and I need to revert back to my Spirit Combat skill.

So, do we all agree that in this case the only option is to use Spirit Combat skill for the second contest?

 

 

 

[Trotsky]

39 minutes ago, DreadDomain said:

Good summary Trotsky. But wait...

Thanks

39 minutes ago, DreadDomain said:

Isn't supposed to be at SR1 plus extra MP expenditure as normal? A 10 MP spell would go off at SR 10 right? On p.366 under Combattants, it says that "spells cast by a spirit, go off on strike rank 1" so if by reading this sentence I could understand that spells go off on strike rank one irrespective of the number of magic point but I would also understand that it applies to spirit only (not discorporate being).

Yes - just my clumsy phrasing...

39 minutes ago, DreadDomain said:

 

You are engaged with 2 spirits. On SR 7, you attack one with your magically enhanced sword. Normal quick contest ensues. That quick contest resolves the attack spirit 1 initiated in SR 12. However, come SR 12, spirit 2 attacks. Normal quick contest take place. Can I use my sword skill to defend? It's not a normal attack. But maybe it is because, if I win the quick contest, I inflict damage. In that case, I do not have enough SR to engage in the contest with my sword and I need to revert back to my Spirit Combat skill.

I think you only use your weapon when you attack  - otherwise it is your Spirit Combat skill 

39 minutes ago, DreadDomain said:

So, do we all agree that in this case the only option is to use Spirit Combat skill for the second contest?

That is how I understand it.

 

[DreadDomain]

15 minutes ago, Trotsky said:

I think you only use your weapon when you attack  - otherwise it is your Spirit Combat skill

Since it is a quick contest, there is no such thing as attack versus defend isn't it? If you use you sword to try to overcome a spirit, you use your sword skill vs its spirit combat which represents the whole engagement. There is no strict attack versus parry/dodge unlike in physical combat. 

[Lordabdul]

1 hour ago, DreadDomain said:

It's a bit of a bizarre quirk that by attacking with a weapon, you effectively make the quick contest happen earlier in the turn...

Yeah. I suppose you "go to contact" on your own terms in that case.

I would have liked to see SR ratings on spirits too, so that some spirits attack faster or slower than others, which can be "fun" when you consider spirit attacks with special effects like madness/disease.

I don't know what the explanation is for "normal" Spirit Combat to happen on SR12, but I imagine it could be to simplify running most scenes where melee fighters are mixed up with shamans? So you do all the "people with pointy things" first, and then the "people with drums and trinkets" last?

Quote

And now I may see and example where you might need to use both your weapon skill and your spirit combat skill.

[...]

So, do we all agree that in this case the only option is to use Spirit Combat skill for the second contest?

Yep, that's what I pointed out earlier: https://basicroleplaying.org/topic/13173-magic-weapons-vs-spirits/page/2/?tab=comments#comment-204950

As I understand it, if you have multiple spirits attacking you, you can only really push back against one or two of them with a magical sword. The other ones will attack you at SR12 and you only have Spirit Combat to oppose them. Most people would only have around 35% in Spirit Combat, so that's a good way, I suppose, to keep your Humakt initiate humble.

If you want to be a mean GM (and I love being a mean GM occasionally), you could even rule out that switching between magic weapons and Spirit Combat in the same round comes at a penalty, or can't be done. There is precedent for that kind of rule with magic and melee.

Edited November 23, 2020 by lordabdul

[Akhôrahil]

2 hours ago, Trotsky said:

Interesting, I would not consider the second option due to the location of the ‘only’ in the sentence.

Yeah, this is the type of phrasing you want to avoid where possible. It's ambiguous at best.

Edited November 23, 2020 by Akhôrahil

[Akhôrahil]

1 hour ago, DreadDomain said:

Isn't supposed to be at SR1 plus extra MP expenditure as normal? A 10 MP spell would go off at SR 10 right? On p.366 under Combattants, it says that "spells cast by a spirit, go off on strike rank 1" so if by reading this sentence I could understand that spells go off on strike rank one irrespective of the number of magic point but I would also understand that it applies to spirit only (not discorporate being).

Personally I simply interpreted it in its looser form of "spirit cast spirit spells normally on SR 1 (plus MP-1) and spirit combat takes place on SR 12"

Agree - the reasonable reading here is that spirits (perhaps even when not in spirit combat - that would make sense) cast Spirit Magic as if their Dex SR was 1 (as they very often won't have a Dex score at all). 

[Akhôrahil]

21 minutes ago, DreadDomain said:

Since it is a quick contest, there is no such thing as attack versus defend isn't it? If you use you sword to try to overcome a spirit, you use your sword skill vs its spirit combat which represents the whole engagement. There is no strict attack versus parry/dodge unlike in physical combat. 

Kind of, but what happens is that when you attack a spirit with a weapon, you force a Spirit Combat Exchange at that SR where you get to use your weapon skill. The most immediate reading is that when you don't attack with your sword, you instead get a Spirit Combat vs. Spirit Combat resolution at SR 12, which you probably like less. 

[Akhôrahil]

Is it correct to assume that since Spirit Combat is an exchange with neither specifically attack or defence, you get to use neither Attack only bonuses (like Bladesharp) nor Parry-only bonuses (like Parry), while you do get to use bonuses to the entire skill (like Sword Trance)? And that the same thing goes for penalties to attack (only) or parry (only)? So that effects like Morale, Berserker and Fanaticism have no effect in Spirit Combat (although the Berserker gains Con bonus and Countermagic?).  

Or, should the weapon use count as a weapon attack? The rules do say "The physical
attack is resolved normally, but opposed by the spirit’s Spirit Combat skill." (My emphasis.) In that case, Fanaticism and Berserker become great in Spirit Combat, and even Bladesharp has some use.

Edited November 23, 2020 by Akhôrahil