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Magic Weapons vs. Spirits


Ryan Kent

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3 hours ago, lordabdul said:

Even if you consider Sword Trance to be a proper trance, you could argue that it's allowed: Sword Trance means your character is only focused on waving their sword to fight enemies. It doesn't necessarily mean that it has to be "fleshy" enemies only.

That wasn't what I meant. Rather, if it had the same wording as Arrow Trance, you maybe wouldn't be allowed to use the Spirit Combat skill, as it's not about your sword. This would be a problem.

On the other hand, the limitations to Arrow Trance don't strictly rule out Spirit Combat (same as it doesn't rule out Unarmed combat), so maybe it would still be allowed.

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3 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

That wasn't what I meant. Rather, if it had the same wording as Arrow Trance, you maybe wouldn't be allowed to use the Spirit Combat skill, as it's not about your sword. This would be a problem.

On the other hand, the limitations to Arrow Trance don't strictly rule out Spirit Combat (same as it doesn't rule out Unarmed combat), so maybe it would still be allowed.

I would be tempted to rule that the Trance spells allow all sorts of "in combat" activities but that the spell drops at the end of the combat.

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10 hours ago, lordabdul said:

I would have liked to see SR ratings on spirits too, so that some spirits attack faster or slower than others, which can be "fun" when you consider spirit attacks with special effects like madness/disease.

I don't know what the explanation is for "normal" Spirit Combat to happen on SR12, but I imagine it could be to simplify running most scenes where melee fighters are mixed up with shamans? So you do all the "people with pointy things" first, and then the "people with drums and trinkets" last?

In RQG it's almost like:

1. Statement of Intent

2. Movement of unengaged characters... well unless you choose to do 3.1 or 3.2 or 3.3 first

3.1 Rune Magic on SR 1... plus MP-1

3.2 Missile attacks on Dex SR and you can potentially cast another one 5 SR later... or move... or if unengaged, do something else

3.3 Spirit Magic or Sorcery Spells on Dex SR... plus MP-1 and you can potentially cast another one 5 SR later.. or if unengaged, move... or do something else

3.4 Melee attacks on DEX+SIZ+Weapon SR... plus maybe a second attack.. and maybe a third.

3.5 Spirit Combat on SR 12...  unless it already happened during the Melee stage.

4. Bookkeeping

Edit: Just to be clear, I like the SR system. Always have. I feel it has often been explained in convoluted ways and some "simplifications", like breaking movement off the flow or making a distinction between engaged and unengaged, in fact lead to more confusion. But that is a different topic.

I find this thread very useful so far.

Edited by DreadDomain
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argh

reading after reading, I think the spirit combat with weapons is too complex. Am I alone ?

would it be better to say (sorry for my frenchglish)

1) all spirit combat are solved in SR12

2) you can use a magic weapon to attack a spirit, but then you replace (one of) your corporal attack by this spiritual attack :

if you can attack once, you have to choose between attack at your SR corporal entity or at SR 12 spirit entity

if you can attack twice, you can choose to attack twice corporal (your SR) OR one corporal (your SR) and one spiritual (SR 12) OR twice spiritual (SR12)

3) you can attack only one time a spirit with your weapon per round

4) if you want to attack with a weapon, use your weapon skill

5) if you have multi opponent you can split your attack as usual (aka 150 -> 2x 75)

6) if you cannot or decide to do not attack with your weapon a spirit use spirit combat skill as usual

- magic effect (fanatism, bladesharp, etc...) impact the skill % as usual, don't care if the attack is against corporal or spiritual entity (I understand @Akhôrahil your point, but my main issue is to not play with rolemaster first edition :) )

I fear that with all the subtlety we have (SR , 100% rule, etc...) we are facing a real labyrinth (well I don't know how translate "usine à gaz" @lordabdul help me 😛 )

 

a bigger simplification could be: fight in spirit combat as usual (spirit combat skill for everybody) but change your spiritual damage by "magic damage from your weapon" if you wish. That removes 4 5 6 but here we are not in the rules at all

 

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33 minutes ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

argh

reading after reading, I think the spirit combat with weapons is too complex. Am I alone ?

It’s not so much that it’s too complex as that it breaks the design pattern, which introduces a lot of problems. Don’t get me wrong, I think opposed rolls are typically better than attack roll/defence roll. But when you have a combat system that relies on attack/defence, and then try to fit another system with opposed skill rolls on top of it, things are bound to get weird.

For instance, compare to this hypothetical system: There is no separate spirit combat. Spirits make a ”Spirit Attack” at their SR (usually trying to inflict Spirit Combat damage, but could also be a more regular attack). The target can defend using Spirit Combat as a dodge, or parry with a suitably enchanted or magical weapon. The target (or anyone else who can see and interact with it, for that matter - or you could rule that being attacked by a spirit is more "personal" and it only engages the one target and only engaged targets can attack it) can also attack the spirit as normal in the SR sequence, using either Spirit Combat for spirit combat damage or a suitable weapon, and the spirit defends by using Spirit Combat as a dodge, or more rarely some other defence roll.

This system would be fully integrated into the regular combat rules, and wouldn’t cause anywhere near as many questions. The only reason the system looks the way it does is because it’s a modification of the old POW vs. POW system.

Edited by Akhôrahil
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7 hours ago, DreadDomain said:

In RQG it's almost like:

1. Statement of Intent

2. Movement of unengaged characters... well unless you choose to do 3.1 or 3.2 or 3.3 first

3.1 Rune Magic on SR 1... plus MP-1

3.2 Missile attacks on Dex SR and you can potentially cast another one 5 SR later... or move... or if unengaged, do something else

3.3 Spirit Magic or Sorcery Spells on Dex SR... plus MP-1 and you can potentially cast another one 5 SR later.. or if unengaged, move... or do something else

3.4 Melee attacks on DEX+SIZ+Weapon SR... plus maybe a second attack.. and maybe a third.

3.5 Spirit Combat on SR 12...  unless it already happened during the Melee stage.

4. Bookkeeping

Edit: Just to be clear, I like the SR system. Always have. I feel it has often been explained in convoluted ways and some "simplifications", like breaking movement off the flow or making a distinction between engaged and unengaged, in fact lead to more confusion. But that is a different topic.

I find this thread very useful so far.

I treat the SR system purely as an action economy in my games. Do whatever you like whenever you like, if you have the SRs for it and it’s not forbidden.

Edited by Akhôrahil
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15 minutes ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

I don't know for the reason (pow pow) but I like your hypothetical system .

(but again, if you don't add subrules like "fanatism bonus apply only to physical oponent")

The Fanaticism/Bladesharp/Berserk and so on would sort itself out in that you both attack and defend in the same turn, so it would function the intended way.

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OK, so yet another question: It often seems to be assumed that spirit combat is a one-on-one affair, or multiple spirits against one target, but can you gang up on a spirit? A shaman could presumably interject himself into the spirit combat, and if the spirit is manifested and everything, there seems to be no reason why everyone with an enchanted sword couldn't just start whacking at it. 

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48 minutes ago, Trotsky said:

I don't think you can gang up on a spirit unless you are also discorporate.

In order to use Spirit Combat, I agree with this.

(You can also get yourself into spirit combat by casting Distraction on the spirit and pulling its attack to you.)

48 minutes ago, Trotsky said:

I believe only the corporeal being engaged in spirit combat may use a weapon, 'They may choose to attack the spirit attacking them using enchanted weapons' (p366).

This seems to be what the rules suggest, but I'm not sure how it makes sense. The spirit is right there, visible, and vulnerable to certain weapons. Why couldn't others strike at it with said weapons? They are allowed to cast spells on it, surely?

Edited by Akhôrahil
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14 minutes ago, Trotsky said:

I think of the spirit as inhabiting the same space at the corporeal entity it is attacking - anyone else striking against it will more than likely hit their friend. But it depends how you visualise it. 

Possibly, but wouldn't it be hard to hit with a sword yourself in that case (let alone a bow 🙂 )? Plus why would there be a requirement to be visible if it will then take up your own space anyway?

It could make sense if the spirit only makes itself visible to the target, though? That way, you could struggle with a disease spirit while others merely see you writhe and sweat.

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How you like to visualise things is of course up to the group. I like to keep spirits very strange and otherworldly. We don't think about real world physics with them - yes they are visible but they are still spirits. Being able to see them is not the same as being able to interact with them - there is some crossover but they are still very otherworldly. We don't visualise using weapons as in regular combat but the combat is more abstract than that.

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2 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:
3 hours ago, Trotsky said:

I don't think you can gang up on a spirit unless you are also discorporate.

In order to use Spirit Combat, I agree with this.

(You can also get yourself into spirit combat by casting Distraction on the spirit and pulling its attack to you.)

I consider you can, if you have the good shaman :

21 hours ago, Scotty said:
22 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

I don't think you can gang up on a spirit unless you are also discorporate.

If engaged, to attack the spirit with weapons, , the shaman would need to have Show Spirit 2, All spirits easily and clearly visible.

Unengaged, it would need a search roll with level 1.

 

so the shaman shows the spirit, the gang sees it and that's ok : bladesharp or better and let's make a carnage

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1 hour ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

I consider you can, if you have the good shaman :

so the shaman shows the spirit, the gang sees it and that's ok : bladesharp or better and let's make a carnage

This seems completely reasonable. (Reminder though - Bladesharp along won’t cut it.)

Edited by Akhôrahil
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8 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

I fear that with all the subtlety we have (SR , 100% rule, etc...) we are facing a real labyrinth (well I don't know how translate "usine à gaz" @lordabdul help me 😛 )

My go-to translator tells me that the anglophones say "white elephant" ? I can't say it conveys exactly the same meaning though... it seems to also carry a "it's a useless thing" meaning that "using a gaz" doesn't have... the French term is only focused on something being needlessly complicated, even though the thing is still useful and in active use.

8 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

For instance, compare to this hypothetical system: There is no separate spirit combat. Spirits make a ”Spirit Attack” at their SR (usually trying to inflict Spirit Combat damage, but could also be a more regular attack).

As @Trotsky said, I like having Spirit Combat resolved differently than physical combat. I imagine it's more like a magical/psychic stand-off from CoC where you roll POW vs POW (and CoC probably took it from RQ2 to begin with!). Spirits could still "attack" at specific SRs instead of SR12, but keep the opposed roll instead of an attack/defense. Note that an attack/defense mechanic would double the number of rolls since each entity would get an attack, which may or may not be what you want to do.

If we summarize the problem, I think we get that:

  1. Spirit combat is considered as a "tug of war" (or "contest of psychic energy", as the rules put it) between parties, modelled with a single opposed roll... not some fight where each party tries to find an opening into the other party's defenses.
  2. The Spirit Combat skill has no expectations of a "limit" on how many times it can be used in a round against multiple spirits.
  3. One can also use a physical weapon skill to participate in a spirit combat "exchange".
  4. Physical weapon skills have the expectation that they can be used either as attack or defense -- not as an "exchange".
  5. Physical weapon skills have the expectation of a "limit" on how many times they can be used in a round. As an attack, they're limited by SR. As a defense, they're limited by the cumulative -20%.

Now consider this take on spirit combat:

  1. Spirit combat is not on SR12 because spirits are slow to act... they're on SR12 because both you and the spirit are spending the whole combat round "struggling against the psychic forces of each other". That's why it requires a concentration roll to do anything else during the entire round.
  2. Using a physical weapon in spirit combat may not mean that you're physically swinging the sword around at the spirit. It may mean that you're picturing yourself swinging it inside your mind. Your spirit is kind of swinging the "magical shadow" of the sword on the spirit plane (where the combat is really taking place). That's why only parts of the magical aspects of the weapon do any damage. That's also why someone else can't help you by swinging their own physical sword at the (visible) spirit that's attacking you... because they would be swinging the physical weapon at some visibly translucent form, going through it without causing damage, instead of using the "magical shadow sword" at the "psychic form" that's not there at all.
  3. Unlike Spirit Combat (the proper "skilled" way of confronting psychic energies), picturing yourself swinging a sword leaves you a victim to your own mental limitations and expectations. That is: you can only swing it a certain number of times (a bit like when you dream that you're running and you're getting tired in your dream). You're using a picture of yourself swinging a sword as a crutch because you don't know how to properly use your mind.

So this interpretation may be translated into a few streamlining house rules:

  1. Count the number of times you can swing a weapon in a round. That's just how many times you can use it to fight spirits. The rules say to resolve these opposed rolls on their respective SRs to keep things simpler but that possibly unintentionally creates edge cases. If you write the swing-count on your character sheet, you can keep all spirit combat stuff on SR12, and roll your sword skill the appropriate number of times. But that requires pre-computing that number, which is something the designers maybe wanted to avoid.
  2. A possible house rule is to also keep all spirit combat rolls on SR12, but apply a cumulative penalty to each weapon roll. Maybe -20% (like cumulative defenses) or -40% (if you're a mean GM) (read below before you say "...but Sword Trance!")
  3. If we consider that swinging your sword in your mind relies on how well you can picture yourself doing that, we could rule that this can only use your actual proficiency with the sword. That would exclude any magical bonuses, which means you can only roll against a spirit using your normal skill. I know that you can almost equally argue for the opposite ("your god can surely help your spirit swing the sword just as well as your real arm!"), but hey, we're trying to get rid of the edge cases, here! :)  So if your mind is all by itself swinging your imaginary sword, there are no bonuses, and no edge cases with attack vs parry bonuses. It also makes spirits more dangerous, which is something some people here seem to want.
6 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

This seems to be what the rules suggest, but I'm not sure how it makes sense. The spirit is right there, visible, and vulnerable to certain weapons. Why couldn't others strike at it with said weapons? They are allowed to cast spells on it, surely?

The rules indeed seem to prevent people from ganging up on spirits (only the other way around). The only way to gang on a spirit is for everybody to be discorporate, I think.

See above for a possible take on spirit combat that explains why you can't "just swing at the spirit there". Also, like other people here, I describe spirits attacking a character as weird blurry ghosts whirling chaotically around the character's head, while the character flails around madly for a few rounds. Hard to hit that, even if you subscribe to the interpretation that you're really hitting the visible spirit with your physical sword.

6 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

Possibly, but wouldn't it be hard to hit with a sword yourself in that case (let alone a bow 🙂 )? Plus why would there be a requirement to be visible if it will then take up your own space anyway?

Visible and corporeal are two different things. Something can be visible and take no space, overlapping with other things. I don't understand your reasoning here.

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Ludovic aka Lordabdul -- read and listen to  The God Learners , the Gloranthan podcast, newsletter, & blog !

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1 minute ago, lordabdul said:

Visible and corporeal are two different things. Something can be visible and take no space, overlapping with other things. I don't understand your reasoning here.

Like this: If others can't hit the spirit because it occupies the same space as your body, how come this isn't a problem for you when it comes to hitting it?

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33 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

Like this: If others can't hit the spirit because it occupies the same space as your body, how come this isn't a problem for you when it comes to hitting it?

I gave my own interpretation of this in my lengthy post above.

Ludovic aka Lordabdul -- read and listen to  The God Learners , the Gloranthan podcast, newsletter, & blog !

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6 minutes ago, lordabdul said:

I gave my own interpretation of this in my lengthy post above.

I know, but it's a pretty personal and wild interpretation, you must agree? I would picture a Humakti simply cutting the ghost, that's manifested there, with his actual sword. Which wouldn't work, except for magics and gifts.

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