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Magic Weapons vs. Spirits


Ryan Kent

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From Scott's answer in this thread and the Q&A II thread, I believe that all spirit combats are resolved with the same mechanics. It's just that the spirit can't try to hit twice in a round, but if the friends of the corporeal entity it's in combat with try to intervene, they risk getting hit by the spirit too. 

Oh, unless they use spells. Spells seem to be safe. 

Unless the spirit decides to sling spells back at them! 

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34 minutes ago, Paid a bod yn dwp said:

So it’s just that the spirit can’t initiate a  combat after the first one, but that they can effectively have extra attacks/defence as a reaction to being attacked by other sources beyond the first?

Thi is both my reading and what seems to be the official ruling. You can't "overwhelm" a spirit with attacks (at least not to the point where it can't effectively fight back).

Spellcasting works, though.

Edited by Akhôrahil
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@tnli saw your question about weapon attacks and fumbles in spirit combat , good question. So it all follows the spirit combat procedure, with fumbles being handled by the spirit fumble table. Interesting I like the weirdness of spirit combat.

Also there’s loads for a GM to play on with visibility, partial visibility, invisibility of the spirit. Or gaps in the adventurers understanding of what they are witnessing. I quite like the idea that there are spirits that may only be visible to the engaged target. Lots of room for customisable experiences with spirit encounters. 

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1 hour ago, tnli said:

Unless the spirit decides to sling spells back at them! 

The problem with using spells is that they use MP, which are also your Hit Points (so to speak) in Spirit Combat. Characters may have crystals or MP matrix, but spirit can not, so, for them, casting spells can be very dangerous.

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1 hour ago, Paid a bod yn dwp said:

Unless I’m understanding opposed spirit combat incorrectly doesn’t that effectively mean that the spirit would be having extra attacks against the extra corporeal opponents attacking it? It’s effectively the same as a standard spirit combat, ie not just defensive? 

Yeah, if you go and harass a spirit, it might strike back an extra time! So it's not a safe thing to do.

 

Better just cast that Disruption.

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I've yet to have in a game any situation where more than one person tries to engage the same spirit.

I've had multiple spirits engage the same adventurer. So for me, the former is a borderline case.

No one who can't deal a large amount of mp damage is going to get involved. What it does do is accelerate the spirit combat if the spirit is outnumbered, as it can potentially loose 3-4 times in one melee round.

In my current game none of my players have any magic that would let them attack a spirit with a weapon anyhow. 

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9 minutes ago, Scotty said:

I've yet to have in a game any situation where more than one person tries to engage the same spirit.

I've had multiple spirits engage the same adventurer. So for me, the former is a borderline case.

No one who can't deal a large amount of mp damage is going to get involved. What it does do is accelerate the spirit combat if the spirit is outnumbered, as it can potentially loose 3-4 times in one melee round.

In my current game none of my players have any magic that would let them attack a spirit with a weapon anyhow. 

Ghostbusters of Glorantha anyone? :) 

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So it seems there can potentially be multiple combat exchanges in spirit combat if there are multiple participants, but the key thing is that you can only initiate 1 exchange, unless you have a special ability/multiple attacks etc. 
 

All spirit combats follow the same procedure, with chances of causing damage, defending, fumbling, etc.
 

@scotty Do ranged attacks with magical properties, and magical attacks on spirits cause potential sprint damage on opposed failure to the user? 
 

edit: just read through your answers in the Q&A II and it looks like even ranged attacks can backfire so to speak, if you loose the opposed contest

Edited by Paid a bod yn dwp
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So @Scottydoes this read ok? 

  • You can only have one spirit combat exchange between two competing entities in a melee round (unless able to make multiple attacks with a magical weapon, or some other special ability that grants extra attacks).
  • If an engaged corporeal entity decides to attack with a magically enhanced weapon on their SR, this will likely preempt, and will replace the spirits attack on SR12 for that round.
  • A spirit can only initiate 1 spirit combat attack, but can oppose any number of attacks on itself regardless of source (unless a special power says otherwise).
  • All forms of attack in spirit combat follow the opposed roll procedure, regardless of what form the attack takes (ranged,melee etc), with chances  of spirit damage/failure/fumble for both participants.
Edited by Paid a bod yn dwp
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3 hours ago, Scotty said:

I've yet to have in a game any situation where more than one person tries to engage the same spirit. 

If you're fighting one big spirit and someone has both a decent weapon skill and a suitable weapon, this is bound to happen though. A starting Humakti PC has all the necessary tools.

Edited by Akhôrahil
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Thanks for the clarifications @Scotty !

14 minutes ago, Scotty said:

In my current game none of my players have any magic that would let them attack a spirit with a weapon anyhow. 

I had one in my previous group, the obligatory Humakti with True Sword, but the good thing with these rules is that it forces players to spend Rune Points to engage the spirit, and these are not easily replenished (especially for a Humakt!). So the Humakti can only help with spirits a couple times per season at most, at least near the beginning when they have less than a handful RPs. That limits group attacks on a spirit to big evil bad ones near the end of an adventure (but those tend to have corporeal qualities anyway for obvious scenario design reasons).

FYI I just ran the numbers in a spreadsheet and it helps quite a lot to have even just one PC spending the RPs to help out with a magical sword, assuming they can boost their weapon skill. If they can overwhelm the spirit's skill with a superior >100% score, they have a good chance of dispatching the spirit. It's worth spending the MPs to do that (even if it leaves you open) because the spirit will rarely damage you in that case. If you can't get a comparatively high skill, it's pretty much not worth it unless you feel very very lucky.

Also note that in my stats (assuming I didn't mess up), if the spirit was clever enough to attack a PC that didn't look like a shaman or Humakti, that PC is in deed trouble, being open to possession in a couple rounds even if another PC helps out.

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2 hours ago, Scotty said:

I've yet to have in a game any situation where more than one person tries to engage the same spirit.

I've had multiple spirits engage the same adventurer. So for me, the former is a borderline case.

Perhaps but weren't you asking if there was any borderline case unresolved? :)

So trying to inderstand the back and forth above:

A spirit is engaged in a spirit combat with Bob when Boris shows up with his magical sword.

1) Can the spirit also engage Boris in spirit combat? No (unless it has a special power to do so)

2) Can Boris swing his sword at the spirit. Yes. If he does, he becomes engaged in spirit combat, it is resolve through the same spirit combat mechanics (quick contest) with the same consequences (refers "Resolving Spirit Combat" and "Spirit Combat Damage" p.368. 

Correct?

Hopefully that's a "yes or no" answer. ;)

Edited by DreadDomain
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3 hours ago, Scotty said:

I've yet to have in a game any situation where more than one person tries to engage the same spirit.

Probably because the rules didn't allow it. 

 

Now, if you can whack away with a sword it makes sense for everyone to gang up on the spirit. I would have it also damage the person engaged in Spirit Combat as well, just to prove a point.

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Simon Phipp - Caldmore Chameleon - Wallowing in my elitism since 1982. Many Systems, One Family. Just a fanboy. 

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On 11/25/2020 at 6:18 PM, Paid a bod yn dwp said:

So @Scottydoes this read ok? 

  • You can only have one spirit combat exchange between two competing entities in a melee round (unless able to make multiple attacks with a magical weapon, or some other special ability that grants extra attacks).

yes.

On 11/25/2020 at 6:18 PM, Paid a bod yn dwp said:
  • If an engaged corporeal entity decides to attack with a magically enhanced weapon on their SR, this will likely preempt, and will replace the spirits attack on SR12 for that round.

yes.

On 11/25/2020 at 6:18 PM, Paid a bod yn dwp said:
  • A spirit can only initiate 1 spirit combat attack, but can oppose any number of attacks on itself regardless of source (unless a special power says otherwise).

yes.

On 11/25/2020 at 6:18 PM, Paid a bod yn dwp said:
  • All forms of attack in spirit combat follow the opposed roll procedure, regardless of what form the attack takes (ranged,melee etc), with chances of spirit damage/failure/fumble for both participants.

yes. Unless the spirit has abilities defined otherwise (eg Elemental Form, Solid form, Telekinesis, etc)

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On 11/25/2020 at 6:56 PM, Akhôrahil said:

If you're fighting one big spirit and someone has both a decent weapon skill and a suitable weapon, this is bound to happen though. A starting Humakti PC has all the necessary tools.

If you happen to have a humakti adventurer in your game (I don't, not everyone does).

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On 11/25/2020 at 8:01 PM, DreadDomain said:

A spirit is engaged in a spirit combat with Bob when Boris shows up with his magical sword.

1) Can the spirit also engage Boris in spirit combat? No (unless it has a special power to do so)

No.

On 11/25/2020 at 8:01 PM, DreadDomain said:

2) Can Boris swing his sword at the spirit. Yes.

Maybe - only if he can see it.

On 11/25/2020 at 8:01 PM, DreadDomain said:

If he does, he becomes engaged in spirit combat, it is resolve through the same spirit combat mechanics (quick contest) with the same consequences (refers "Resolving Spirit Combat" and "Spirit Combat Damage" p.368. 

Yes

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On 11/25/2020 at 8:17 PM, soltakss said:

Probably because the rules didn't allow it.

My players reading the rules would be a fine thing 🙂

On 11/25/2020 at 8:17 PM, soltakss said:

Now, if you can whack away with a sword it makes sense for everyone to gang up on the spirit. I would have it also damage the person engaged in Spirit Combat as well, just to prove a point.

Which it can.

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2 hours ago, Scotty said:

Maybe - only if he can see it.

You mentioned earlier how you handle "spirit visibility" at your table and I'd like a bit more information on that if possible:

  • Do you only ask for a Scan roll to additional people joining in the spirit fight? That is: would the spirit's original target be able to use their weapon against the spirit without rolling for Scan because somehow the spirit is more clearly visible to them?
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On 11/22/2020 at 10:54 PM, Rodney Dangerduck said:

As for augmenting Spirit Combat with Sing, much as I hate to say it (my character is a great singer) page 139 pretty much kaboshes that:  "typical" time for Sing (or Dance) is minutes.

I'd completely allow that. Singing bothers spirits, and it should give a bonus because it's happening during the combat.

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"It seems I'm destined not to move ahead in time faster than my usual rate of one second per second"

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2 minutes ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

Page 246 is interesting.  Seem that you want to sing for a couple of rounds.  But not totally clear when this applies. 

For a spirit? Instantly. Same as burning fish heads(worship? In any case, spirits hate fish heads too).

Same when a runepriest of jesus tries to exorcise a demon from Linda blair. He doesn't need several rounds of prayers before the combat, otherwise the skill would be kinda useless wouldn't it?

What does needing minutes or whatever the rules say in order to boost spirit combat with dancing, singing, playing the guitar (because why not have a blues duel spirit combat with the cacodemon?) worship or whatever actually do?

If you enforce RAW, you lose the opportunity to have skills like dance, sing, play instrument, oratory, and whatever odd skill to be used in (spirit?) Combat. This makes the game... Less rich imho.

Also, from a mechanical point this gives value to those less important skills (because, let's face it, sing does not have the same weight as 1h sword skill for 99.9% of groups).

 

 

 

"It seems I'm destined not to move ahead in time faster than my usual rate of one second per second"

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