Magic Weapons vs. Spirits

[tnli]

I'd follow the advice under increasing your success with magic, on pages 244-247.

Spirit combat participant would have to succeed on their intelligence check for each round to count against their augment attempt. Brobably at ×5 if they took no MP nor HP damage on the round, or at ×3 if they did take (either kind of) damage. 

I imagine it working something like this:

Round 0: Spirit shows itself on some SR. 

Round 1: Attacked adventurer who noticed the spirit  declares that they'll start talking in spirit speech, to gain the augment, SR 12 spirit combat, after that INT×X (see above) to see if the round counts for augment. 

Round 2: Another round of spirit combat at SR 12, and after that an INT×X to see if this round counts against the augment. 

Round 3: At corporeals DEX SR (because why not), roll against full Spiritspeech skill (assuming that the previous 2 rounds did count for the augment, if one failed it would be at half-skill, and if both failed, no roll allowed yet). SR 12: 3rd round of spirit combat, but the adventurer would now have a bonus (or penalty!) to their spirit combat roll, depending on how their Spiritspeech augment roll went.

This same augment result would stay with them for the rest of this spirit combat, and maybe more if there were more spirit combats in this scene, GM's call.

[lozanoje]

I’ve been reading through all the thread and has clarified me a lot of rules about Spirit Combat, but I still have some questions

Suppose a spirit corporates to attack a character, he is with his two other teammates.

The spirit combat goes at SR12, using spirit combat skill, and if the character wants, can make any offensive action at the normal SR (for spell, attack), with the exception that the resolution of attacks is based on spirit combat, players’ attack Vs spirit’s spirit combat (in that case two resolutions are made at that round)

If their mates want to jump in the fight, they can use spells or attacks with magical stuff (not spirit magic boosted weapons, since do not affect most spirits)

[Question 1] most here say that the other guys must be able to see the spirit, what does this exactly mean? Don’t they see it once it has corporated?

If attacking, the other characters can use their magical infused attacks, but [Question 2] Can they use their spirit combat in case they do not have any other means of attacking the spirit? (in this case the spirit can use his own spirit combat to counter)

[Question 3] What can a shaman do with this situation if he is not the one attacked? I understand he can send his fetch to attack the spirit, right? But he cannot attack directly with spirit combat, thou he can use infused weapons/spells,

[Question 4] And, finally, if the character wants to use spirit dance to retire from combat and has sucess, what are the options of the spirit? Can he attack another character? Can he attack again the same character? Does the spirit return to the spirit world?

[Question 5] If more than one character is in combat with a spirit, can any of them retire from spirit combat? Is so, the spirit return to the spirit world even if it is still engaged with other characters?

[Question 6] If retirement from combat is as easy as rolling spirit dance, how can shamans capture spirits or steal their spells, they only need to have sucess in a roll (spirit dance uncontested or spirit combat vs spirit combat) when its mps are low they will try to disengange and the combat will end with no option to the shaman. The same for a character, if you only need to pass a spirit combat confrontation to avoid a spirit, then the chances of being possesed are quite low, imho. In fact, this is what I, as a character would try once and again when a spirit materializes. Chances are on my side to success in one confrontantion before my mps runs out

 

Edited May 8, 2022 by lozanoje

[Scotty]

5 hours ago, lozanoje said:

I’ve been reading through all the thread and has clarified me a lot of rules about Spirit Combat, but I still have some questions

Suppose a spirit corporates to attack a character, he is with his two other teammates.

The spirit combat goes at SR12, using spirit combat skill, and if the character wants, can make any offensive action at the normal SR (for spell, attack), with the exception that the resolution of attacks is based on spirit combat, players’ attack Vs spirit’s spirit combat (in that case two resolutions are made at that round)

If their mates want to jump in the fight, they can use spells or attacks with magical stuff (not spirit magic boosted weapons, since do not affect most spirits)

[Question 1] most here say that the other guys must be able to see the spirit, what does this exactly mean? Don’t they see it once it has corporated?

Maybe, it depends what they are doing. The players know that there is a spirit starting to appear as the GM will reveal in the statement of Intent (SoI) the round before: the spirit makes itself visible in the Middle World the melee round prior to its first attack. The adventurers may be doing something else - involved in their own fight, doing something that requires concentration, barricading the door, etc., they may not have time to notice. Overall this is a GM call.

5 hours ago, lozanoje said:

If attacking, the other characters can use their magical infused attacks, but [Question 2] Can they use their spirit combat in case they do not have any other means of attacking the spirit? (in this case the spirit can use his own spirit combat to counter)

Yes, if they don't do anything else that round, and have declared it in their SoI other than what's allowed (half move, parring, etc.)

5 hours ago, lozanoje said:

[Question 3] What can a shaman do with this situation if he is not the one attacked? I understand he can send his fetch to attack the spirit, right?

Yes or other bound or pact bound spirits (or all of them).

5 hours ago, lozanoje said:

But he cannot attack directly with spirit combat,

Correct, he has to discorporate and that take an hour.

5 hours ago, lozanoje said:

thou he can use infused weapons/spells,

Yes, or relevent shamanic abilities (show spirit can reveal a spirit in the round it declares it's appearing). Distraction is a fantastic spell for an adventurer with a high POW.

5 hours ago, lozanoje said:

[Question 4] And, finally, if the character wants to use spirit dance to retire from combat and has sucess, what are the options of the spirit?

When a combatant disengages, the combat is over. Spirits return to the Spirit World. If the spirit wishes to renew the combat, it must first become visible for one melee round before it can initiate spirit combat again.

5 hours ago, lozanoje said:

Can he attack another character?

Only if already engaged, however most spirits would have fled if outnumbered 3-1. Otherwise as above.

5 hours ago, lozanoje said:

Can he attack again the same character?

As above.

5 hours ago, lozanoje said:

Does the spirit return to the spirit world?

Yes.

5 hours ago, lozanoje said:

[Question 5] If more than one character is in combat with a spirit, can any of them retire from spirit combat?

If they succeed in a spirit dance roll or at spirit combat per Disengaging from Spirit Combat, page 370.

5 hours ago, lozanoje said:

Is so, the spirit return to the spirit world even if it is still engaged with other characters?

No, it must disengage. Spirits don't have spirit Dance, If you want to allow them that option, I'd just suggest a spirit combat roll, with the usual -1/mp per (see Spirit Dance, page 353). If they fail they then remain engaged.

5 hours ago, lozanoje said:

[Question 6] If retirement from combat is as easy as rolling spirit dance

Only if you succeed... Adventurers can't learn this skill unless an apprentice shaman. It's a 00% skill, so doesn't work even with a positive magic category modified (see Base Chance, page 163).

5 hours ago, lozanoje said:

how can shamans capture spirits or steal their spells, they only need to have sucess in a roll (spirit dance uncontested or spirit combat vs spirit combat) when its mps are low they will try to disengange and the combat will end with no option to the shaman.

To bind the creature into the enchantment, an adventurer must have a relevant control spell (such as Spirit Binding or Command Cult Spirit), Spirit Binding page 249.

They just need to succeed in a POW vs POW roll (don't forget they add their fetches POW too). Most will augment with either a skill (Spirit Lore), passion or rune.

Shaman have lot's of help in this - shamanic abilities, spirit helper, their fetch, etc.

5 hours ago, lozanoje said:

The same for a character, if you only need to pass a spirit combat confrontation to avoid a spirit, then the chances of being possesed are quite low, imho.

You can only do it once engaged. Adventurers, unless shaman or assistant shaman are rarely good with spirit combat.

5 hours ago, lozanoje said:

In fact, this is what I, as a character would try once and again when a spirit materializes. Chances are on my side to success in one confrontantion before my mps runs out

Good luck with that. Unless you have spirit dance (unlikely), you need to succeed in a spirit combat roll while in combat with the spirit. Most adventurers, cast Spirit Block, Spirit Screen or run in my experience.

[lozanoje]

1 hour ago, Scotty said:

Yes, if they don't do anything else that round, and have declared it in their SoI other than what's allowed (half move, parring, etc.)

I think you meant No, isnt it? The question was about a random character using Spirit Combat directly to attack other than the one engaged with the Spirit that has no other magical means of hurting the Spirit.

Later on, I asked about Shamans having to send their fetch or discoporate themselves to engage the Spirit, and you replied

1 hour ago, Scotty said:

Correct, he has to discorporate and that take an hour.

So if a shaman cant use Spirit Combat directly on a Spirit attacking his mate, then another mate shouldnt be allowed to, I guess.

Rest of questions was due to my lack of knowledge of the spirit rules. I think I mostly got it

Thanks for all clarifications!

 

 

[PhilHibbs]

I was faced with this in my last session. I sent them a Fiend of Cacodemon as a result of a Summons of Evil, and when it died (01 to the head from a Dagger Axe will do that) it attacked Vishi Dunn in spirit combat, as they do.

The rest of the party wanted to join in, one of them had Truesword up on her enchanted iron sword so that was totally on the cards, once Vishi realized that he had to dismount his High Llama for the duck Humakti to be able to reach the spirit!

I wasn't entirely sure of the mechanics and didn't want to break the flow by looking them up (the on-death-spirit-combat-attack took me by surprise as much as anyone) so I treated Spirit Combat like a weapon skill, and every incoming attack reduced the next Spirit Combat by 20%. That's not in the book, and I should probably only have done that for the "Spirit Combat parries" and not for the final actual Spirit Combat opposed roll vs Vishi.

The skills-over-100 rule (FoC had 200% Spirit Combat) meant I had to do tons of arithmetic in my head, I wouldn't wish that on my worst enemy, fortunately I am pretty good at head-sums and keeping track of chains of numbers. Everyone else in the room was just bamboozled by the constant stream of changing chances. I think the over-100%-rule is dead to me, but that's another thread...

[Scotty]

15 hours ago, lozanoje said:

I think you meant No, isnt it? The question was about a random character using Spirit Combat directly to attack other than the one engaged with the Spirit that has no other magical means of hurting the Spirit.

Yes they can attack the spirit in spirit combat on SR12, if they don't do anything else that round, and have declared it in their SoI other than what's allowed (half move, parring, etc.)

15 hours ago, lozanoje said:

Later on, I asked about Shamans having to send their fetch or discoporate themselves to engage the Spirit, and you replied

So if a shaman cant use Spirit Combat directly on a Spirit attacking his mate, then another mate shouldnt be allowed to, I guess.

When a shaman discorporates, his fetch occupies their body. The discorporate fetch is their spirit. The shaman can attack a corporate spirit though.

[Lordabdul]

7 hours ago, Scotty said:

Yes they can attack the spirit in spirit combat on SR12, if they don't do anything else that round, and have declared it in their SoI other than what's allowed (half move, parring, etc.)

I think there's a bit of miscommunication going on -- I actually almost posted earlier about it to clarify things. I think that what's happening is as follows. The original 2nd question was:

"If attacking, the other characters can use their magical infused attacks, but [Question 2] Can they use their spirit combat in case they do not have any other means of attacking the spirit? (in this case the spirit can use his own spirit combat to counter)"

This was based on a situation established in the first question, where one spirit is attacking one character (say, Bob), and the question is about the other characters (say, Alice and Charlie) who are just standing around trying to figure out how to help their friend. The spirit has not attacked them (it's only engaged in spirit combat with Bob). In that case, Alice and Charlie cannot initiate spirit combat with the spirit unless they discorporate. So they cannot use their spirit combat, unless the spirit suddenly attacks them too (unlikely). Most likely, Alice and Charlie have to find something else to do (cast spells at the spirit, use magically buffed weapons to attack it, call other spirits, etc.)

Scotty, I think you understood this question as based on a different situation, where characters are already in combat with the spirit -- in which case they can choose whether to fight back with magical weapons, or with the spirit combat skill.

At least that's my reading of both the rules and this thread...

Edited May 9, 2022 by lordabdul

[Lordabdul]

20 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

I treated Spirit Combat like a weapon skill, and every incoming attack reduced the next Spirit Combat by 20%. That's not in the book, and I should probably only have done that for the "Spirit Combat parries" and not for the final actual Spirit Combat opposed roll vs Vishi.

I've been thinking about that, since it would make sense that ganging up on a spirit (or spirits ganging up on someone!) would be more effective than... not. On the other hand, without it, facing a powerful spirit (like the Fiend's 200% spirit combat skill) forces you to flee and come back with your own powerful allied spirit, which brings some interesting adventuring opportunities.

[icebrand]

21 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

The skills-over-100 rule (FoC had 200% Spirit Combat) meant I had to do tons of arithmetic in my head, I wouldn't wish that on my worst enemy, fortunately I am pretty good at head-sums and keeping track of chains of numbers. Everyone else in the room was just bamboozled by the constant stream of changing chances. I think the over-100%-rule is dead to me, but that's another thread...

Thats a skill ratings every 1% thing, not an over 100% thing! I bet you have no issue in 2nd ed with round skill numbers!

[lozanoje]

On 5/9/2022 at 12:20 PM, Scotty said:

Yes they can attack the spirit in spirit combat on SR12, if they don't do anything else that round, and have declared it in their SoI other than what's allowed (half move, parring, etc.)

Ops, interesting, I thought they cant since they were not spirit-wise specialists, so to speak.

Well, I think it is ok since it opens up a chance for the rest of the party to help their mate in case he is attacked and they have no means of hurting it.

On 5/9/2022 at 12:20 PM, Scotty said:

When a shaman discorporates, his fetch occupies their body. The discorporate fetch is their spirit. The shaman can attack a corporate spirit though.

Undestood! Thanks!

[lozanoje]

On 5/9/2022 at 6:36 PM, lordabdul said:

I think there's a bit of miscommunication going on -- I actually almost posted earlier about it to clarify things. I think that what's happening is as follows. The original 2nd question was:

Yes, that's what I was exactly questioning, but I think Scotty undestood me right, since he says "Yes they can attack the spirit in spirit combat on SR12", he is speaking about the full party, not only the one being assaulted by the spirit.

Isnt it?

 

 

Edited May 14, 2022 by lozanoje