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Worship role Magic Points Buff


Mossmac

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What is the opinion of other GM’s about the relatively easy Worship role buff of the stackable ‘1 MP gives +10%’ bonus?

I like all the other buffs described and makes the players really think about how to maximise their Worship role. But if all you have to do is sacrifice 2 + 9 MPs which you get back in less than a day I don’t see the point of all of the other more interesting buffs.

how do GMs who actually role play the worship ceremony deal with this? Do you ignore the MP buff?

I would think a higher level character easily makes the role nearly every time. Do you apply extra rewards for critical worship results? making it still significant for rune level characters to buff their worship role with sacrifices etc?

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2 hours ago, Mossmac said:

What is the opinion of other GM’s about the relatively easy Worship role buff of the stackable ‘1 MP gives +10%’ bonus?

I like all the other buffs described and makes the players really think about how to maximise their Worship role. But if all you have to do is sacrifice 2 + 9 MPs which you get back in less than a day I don’t see the point of all of the other more interesting buffs.

how do GMs who actually role play the worship ceremony deal with this? Do you ignore the MP buff?

I would think a higher level character easily makes the role nearly every time. Do you apply extra rewards for critical worship results? making it still significant for rune level characters to buff their worship role with sacrifices etc?

Honestly I consider that whorship roll is more or less a formality. The true challenge is what level of success during minor day or things like that (so special, critical, etc..).

 

And another point about MP : yes it is only one day to regain, but what about the trolls you GM decide they attacks this evening, just after the ceremony, well just after the pc are drunk and without magic .. hu.. there will be 3 fests this day, one for the god, one for the pc and one for the trolls ;)  ?

 

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2 hours ago, Mossmac said:

What is the opinion of other GM’s about the relatively easy Worship role buff of the stackable ‘1 MP gives +10%’ bonus?

It isn't meant to be difficult.

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3 hours ago, Mossmac said:

What is the opinion of other GM’s about the relatively easy Worship role buff of the stackable ‘1 MP gives +10%’ bonus?

I like all the other buffs described and makes the players really think about how to maximise their Worship role. But if all you have to do is sacrifice 2 + 9 MPs which you get back in less than a day I don’t see the point of all of the other more interesting buffs.

how do GMs who actually role play the worship ceremony deal with this? Do you ignore the MP buff?

I would think a higher level character easily makes the role nearly every time. Do you apply extra rewards for critical worship results? making it still significant for rune level characters to buff their worship role with sacrifices etc?

Frankly, I always maximize the worship rolls with max MPs. But I don't think things becomes too easy:

- The gods need the MP.

- If you spend too much MP, this is spot on time for the GM to launch something. If you are left to 1MP and a band of broo attacks the village, or someone needs an immediate help for healing, you are in deep sh..., not to say that using sword trance with 1 or 2 MP (the ones you have recovered) is a bit futile.

- I think you forget the other modifiers the GM may add (weather, omens, whatever he wants), that may force you to use the other options to get a decent (i.e. 95%) roll.

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5 minutes ago, Caras said:

I know. But I like the style of play that Jeff uses in Youtube campaign better. I like players sacrificing things and animals, not magic points.

 

Definitely more role play involved getting to the correct location, performing song and dance, acquiring a suitable sacrifice etc. MP spending just seems like meta game number crunching to me. I could understand a permanent sacrifice of Power points giving 10% bonus but not something as benign as MP. In any game if there are many varied and different options to achieve a common goal and the players always opt for just the same option it’s a pretty big clue that the option probably needs nerfing or the others need buffing or a bit of both.

I wasn’t aware the Worship roll was meant to be easy? What made you think that? If proper role play preparation is done most people are going to get close to the 95% chance anyway in normal circumstances? MP spending seems like a cheap shortcut.

Now I understand GM’S and player groups who really aren’t interested in exploring the whole religious role play part of the game and treat holy days as a needed ‘filling up RP from the gas station’ action. 

I am interested in ideas from GM’S and players who have gone deep into the religious observance roleplay aspect Runequest offers and seems to be one of the key unique aspects of the game that sets it apart from other games.
 

I am particularly interested in ideas for rewarding players who make special and critical rolls on the worship roll, which I can see happening quite a bit. Things like gaining a one use guardian ancestral spirit, spirit spell, one off rune spell, weapon becomes enchanted, healing herbs are found growing in a abundance in the sacred grove etc maybe with a time limit such as until the end of the week or until the next Holyday etc. Any ideas on this?

 

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Some Ideas below. Please critique and add to
 

Ceremonial Special And Critical Worship roll blessings

 

Either the GM chooses or the player rolls for the category of blessing whichever benefits the play style.

 

Special result (which would be quite common so not too buffs) allowing

 an advancement test on a cult taught skill, 

a small advancement on a cult related passion (1D3-1), 

one use for zero MP cult taught spirit spell the player already knows. Lasts until the next season Holyday. 

 

 

Critical result

A bit rarer allows an advancement in 

a cult taught skill +D4%

A cult related passion +D4%

Immediately learn a cult known spirit magic spell that lasts until the next season holy day.

An item the player owns is now enchanted

Succeed at one divine intervention until the end of the season

Succeed at divination once until the end of the season

Use a rune spell once without expanding rune points. Lasts until the next Holiday

Learn a Rune Spell from an associated cult that can be cast once following normal rules. Lasts until the next season holy day of the associated clan

Miraculous phenomenon: at GM’S discretion example 

Cult spirit appears to aid the player

Visions of the past present future

A new marking/tattoo appears on the adventurer 

A broken weapon is repaired

Etc

 

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Generally as most holy days happen outside of the 3 weeks adventuring per season, I just return all of their Rune points, per page 141 Ability use, Automatic success. For high holy days I often give an automatic experience check on worship for a good description of participation. If the holy day is part of the adventure, not just a day where where one of the adventurers is out at the ceremony, I make sure it's fully developed. Ensuring that all the players take part, usually as lay members, but occasionally as an associate cult. Then the importance of worship rolls becomes important.

Don't forget that if you are worshipping on a high holy day, seasonal holy, or weekly  day you get +40% / +20%  / +10% automatically

and that a Minor, Major, or Great temple gives +10% / +20% / +30% automatically

So for a High Holy day at a clan's minor temple you already have +50%

add in a sacrifice and a decent one gets you +10%

A good example of this was Ernalda's High Holy week, none of the adventurers were initiates, but associates and husband protectors. They all got a part in the ceremonies and as associates and husband protectors, got to make worship roles. Everyone of course wanted to look good, so everyone augmented their worship rolls with sacrifice (part of the Worship write up page 184) with at least a weapon or sheep. An Orlanth adventurous adventurer player the part of Husband protector and got Taking an important part in a worship ceremony +1D3 reputation, and the Storm Bull, when sacrificing a cow scored a critical worship roll and received +1D6 reputation, with Ernalda bestowing a blessing on him (all of his rune points back) and the Earthpower rune spell for his rune spell collection.

Personally I think there's enough in the Worship writeup, in reputation, and the automatic success rules, not to worry about the minor effect of a 10% magic point boost.

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On 11/24/2020 at 12:27 PM, Mossmac said:

What is the opinion of other GM’s about the relatively easy Worship role buff of the stackable ‘1 MP gives +10%’ bonus?

It trivializes Worship, makes the Worship skill meaningless apart from qualifying for Rune Levels, has a trivial cost, and means that characters will virtually always succeed at Worship. It also means that other sacrifices are completely unimportant - those cost money, MPs are essentially free.

All in all, perhaps not the most successful design.

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On 11/24/2020 at 2:40 PM, French Desperate WindChild said:

And another point about MP : yes it is only one day to regain, but what about the trolls you GM decide they attacks this evening, just after the ceremony, well just after the pc are drunk and without magic .. hu.. there will be 3 fests this day, one for the god, one for the pc and one for the trolls ;)  ?

1. Unless it's an in-world thing that enemies like to strike at their enemies holy days when they are guaranteed to be fresh on Rune Points and generally up on magic, this seems to be just a dick move if practiced more than rarely by the GM.

2. Any PC with a couple of adventures under his or her belt is likely to have some kind of MP storage, making the expenditure of a few MPs from storage completely unimportant.

Edited by Akhôrahil
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Yeah, I'm not a fan of the rune point recovery system. The idea is great but the system itself makes it so easy that having a system at all seems unnecessary. I only allow rune point recovery on the cult's holy and high holy days and sacred time. Moving the magic point sacrifice to +1% makes a lot of sense to me. And I love the idea of rewarding criticals and specials, I think I would make it a vision from the god that adds to Cult Lore.

I have a Humakt that collects weapons and shields from conquered foes to sacrifice. That is the kind of thing that I want to encourage.

 

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16 minutes ago, Scorus said:

Yeah, I'm not a fan of the rune point recovery system. The idea is great but the system itself makes it so easy that having a system at all seems unnecessary. I only allow rune point recovery on the cult's holy and high holy days and sacred time. Moving the magic point sacrifice to +1% makes a lot of sense to me. And I love the idea of rewarding criticals and specials, I think I would make it a vision from the god that adds to Cult Lore.

The steadwife PC in my campaign started off by critting first a HD and then a HHD Worship roll, and then also critting a Manage Household roll on Ancestor Day (basically the only way the Ancestors won't find something to complain about). There's now a large faction wanting to fast-track her for priestesshood due to her obvious holiness.

Edited by Akhôrahil
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1 hour ago, Akhôrahil said:

2. Any PC with a couple of adventures under his or her belt is likely to have some kind of MP storage, making the expenditure of a few MPs from storage completely unimportant.

I play that you can sacrifice only your own MP, not stored ones.

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3 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

1. Unless it's an in-world thing that enemies like to strike at their enemies holy days when they are guaranteed to be fresh on Rune Points and generally up on magic, this seems to be just a dick move if practiced more than rarely by the GM.

2. Any PC with a couple of adventures under his or her belt is likely to have some kind of MP storage, making the expenditure of a few MPs from storage completely unimportant.

1) I m pretty sure that there are guards in any clan during ceremonies. Of course I m not saying every holy day will see an attack, but there is always a risk. I cannot imagine smart ennemies don't try to get advantages

2) it really depends on the "treasure economic" on the play. How rare is a crystal, what is the price of a matrix, etc.. I m not sure, for example, than the white bull campaign gives so many MP storage to the pc.

In all case, I consider a sacrifice must be a sacrifice, not just two cents you give. That must be a significant loss.

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I also don't like very much the MP sacrifices. The only difference between gaining +60% with 3 cows vs. 6 MPs is the warm fuzzy feeling of good roleplay when you paint and slaughter the cows... but the cows don't come back the next day, unlike MPs, so players who are not easily swayed by warm fuzzy feelings need other incentives to pick the cows.

Lowering, or even eliminating, the MP bonuses is the obvious "fix", especially since I agree that "punishing" players who spend too many MPs by having an action scene that same night is kind of a dick move from the GM after the second time it happens.

If you're into more positive reinforcement techniques, you could narrate and create consequences differently between MP sacrifices and other stuff. A PC that spent many MPs would have been dancing and singing until they looked visibly tired, like the guy who spends all his time at the buffet and is seen puking in the bathroom at the end of the party. Comparatively, gifts and active participation could lead to Reputation increases on a good Worship roll, important NPCs noticing the character and giving out cool missions and opportunities, or miscellaneous NPCs wanting to help out or provide services to the PC. The rules specify how many points come and go, but the GM comes up with what it means and what it leads to.

Edited by lordabdul
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I Have limited the MP's that may be sacrificed for Worship rolls.  For Initiates the Bonus caps out at 2 additional MP (AKA +20%), for Priests and God Talkers the bonus caps out at 4 MP, and for Rune Lords the limit is the character’s MP.    This had the effect that several of the PC's sought out the additional bonuses, as well as augments from Devotion and Sing/Dance skills.  I run a rolling calendar not rigidly sticking to 1 adventure per Season and so recovery of just a few RP can be important.  There is a big difference in difficulty when you know an important encounter is coming up and the PC's have spent all their RPs, but then some other encounters become Trivial if the Orlanthi Rune Priest Casts Shield 3 before rushing in.

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19 hours ago, Caras said:

Do any other cult have minor holy days, other than Ernalda? It is only one in corebook that says of having them.

Issaries is also listed in the core rulebook. Which immediately led to my player constantly trying to spell trade his "spare" Rune points. I think there might be one more which does, but I can't remember off the top of my head.

Don't forget your associate cult holy days too, for extra RP replenishing! IIRC minor holy days don't count, only seasonal or HHD.

I believe it has been stated in forum/FB threads that Orlanth has a weekly minor holy day as well, and that this will be in the forthcoming Cults book. I can't recall an exact source on that to point people towards.

A lot of the major cults, getting filled up to 10-ish RP is fairly easy each season, if you attend every available worship service. Seasonal, 2-ish associate, hey-presto, magic battery is ready to rock. The only adventurer in my game who regularly had trouble was a Humakti (no associate cult worship) with 9 RP because he began play as an old man. He really cared about his adventurer's worship opportunities, to the point of slightly-derailing a few adventures.

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