why is Argrath considered an asshole?

[French Desperate WindChild]

6 hours ago, lordabdul said:

What's that about the Rainbow Mounds? I can't find anything about a truestone or Argrarth in the couple versions of that scenario.

french version (oriflam) page 54 room 20

Quote

Mais pour cela, il faudrait une personne sur chaque socle à l'extérieur et une autre lisant l'inscription gravée sur la colonne, une tâche qui est réservée au Prince Argrath

 

[jajagappa]

8 hours ago, lordabdul said:

I can't find anything about a truestone

In the RQ Classic pdf version p.27 (room 22): In the center of this room an adamantine column stretches from beneath the cave floor into the cave ceiling. It is covered with wispy writing, is warm to the touch, and cancels all magic in the room (thus there are no magical detects allowed, etc.).

Adamantine = Truestone

8 hours ago, lordabdul said:

or Argrarth

No reference to Argrath in the RQ Classic version.  However, there is the Newtling prophecy p.26: Additionally, the newts will show their savior the greatest treasure in the Rainbow Mounds. They know nothing else of this item, for they have not seen it either. It waits as a promise by their ancestor, for their Liberator.

One might interpret the Liberator here in any number of ways, but leaving it to player agency is best in my mind.

[Scorus]

20 hours ago, Leingod said:

Makes sense. Sartar was a Larnsting, and Orlanth is certainly not the only god to have inherited the powers and nature of Larnste. Issaries is said to be the son of Larnste by Harana Ilor. Which may well just be a God-Learnerism, since I don't recall the Heortlings ever recognizing Issaries as Orlanth's uncle, but the point it makes still stands, namely that Orlanth is not the only god of transformative change, even within his own pantheon.

Hmmm, and I think there is another god that has the Movement rune, that is often seen as necessary to bring about big and quick changes, that would get a kick out of turning people into insects, that would work with odd creatures such as Telmori and Durulz, that lets others do its violence for it. Could it be...I don't know...EURMAL?!  /church lady voice

[Joerg]

49 minutes ago, Scorus said:

Hmmm, and I think there is another god that has the Movement rune, that is often seen as necessary to bring about big and quick changes, that would get a kick out of turning people into insects, that would work with odd creatures such as Telmori and Durulz, that lets others do its violence for it. Could it be...I don't know...EURMAL?!  /church lady voice

Canonically, Eurmal has two Illusion runes and one Disorder rune. Which means that whoever devised that runic ownership system was tricked, as Eurmal clearly is the heir to the Disorder rune, and has Illusion only as a side job.

His presence does catalyze Change, but in all likelihood that is because he creates Disorder which somebody with the ability to change things can then bring into a new order.

Various subcults of Eurmal ought to have other runes - like the Death rune for Killboy.

[Scorus]

22 minutes ago, Joerg said:

Canonically, Eurmal has two Illusion runes and one Disorder rune. Which means that whoever devised that runic ownership system was tricked, as Eurmal clearly is the heir to the Disorder rune, and has Illusion only as a side job.

Not any more. Eurmal has illusion, disorder, and movement in RQG. With movement's relationship to change and Eurmal's origins in Trickster theory, it seems necessary.

[John Biles]

2 hours ago, Scorus said:

Hmmm, and I think there is another god that has the Movement rune, that is often seen as necessary to bring about big and quick changes, that would get a kick out of turning people into insects, that would work with odd creatures such as Telmori and Durulz, that lets others do its violence for it. Could it be...I don't know...EURMAL?!  /church lady voice

Eurmal is not one to create peace and stability.

 

[Joerg]

50 minutes ago, Scorus said:

Not any more. Eurmal has illusion, disorder, and movement in RQG. With movement's relationship to change and Eurmal's origins in Trickster theory, it seems necessary.

That's just RQG - the Guide still is the definitive canonical source, using runes that RQG characters can only get from heroquesting. For instance the Trade (or Issaries, as per Cults of Prax) rune, or Mastery.

There is a logic to use less runes as character runes, but RQG is only one of several avenues to explore Glorantha.

Out of curiosity - is there any Rune spell in Eurmal's list that requires the Movement rune? I couldn't find any at a short glance. What does Eurmal have it for? Even his shapeshifter spell uses Illusion.

(It's a trick. I know.)

[Eff]

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

That's just RQG - the Guide still is the definitive canonical source, using runes that RQG characters can only get from heroquesting. For instance the Trade (or Issaries, as per Cults of Prax) rune, or Mastery.

There is a logic to use less runes as character runes, but RQG is only one of several avenues to explore Glorantha.

Out of curiosity - is there any Rune spell in Eurmal's list that requires the Movement rune? I couldn't find any at a short glance. What does Eurmal have it for? Even his shapeshifter spell uses Illusion.

(It's a trick. I know.)

The trick is that you spend a substantial amount of time searching for the Eurmal spell that uses Movement, exercising your Movement Rune. 

[Scorus]

4 hours ago, John Biles said:

Eurmal is not one to create peace and stability.

Not intentionally, but Tricksters are necessary for progress in some mythologies. There are many Trickster myths where the Trickster ends up bringing something positive through their tricks. Often they trick the gods into sharing something with people, like fire.

Not that I am actually suggesting that Sartar was an Eurmali. See the church lady joke.

[Scorus]

3 hours ago, Joerg said:

(It's a trick. I know.)

A trick to get you to "speak canon."

Movement is the rune of change, it is what makes Orlanth an agent of change. The Trickster theory school of anthropology on which Stafford based Eurmal believes that tricksters are the source of change, they are used to explain most changes in ancient societies as the gods tend to be highly devoted to the status quo (short version, obviously). I think it works with him but YGMV.

In fact, one could make a good argument that Eurmal is just the change aspect of Orlanth. If one wanted to try and out-Eurmal Eurmal.

[Joerg]

The trickster is required to make a change, yes, but IMO that's because the Trickster's deeds create a situation that requires someone else to create a working solution, to undo whatever the Trickster has done. That doesn't mean that the situation afterwards is better... think of Uleria and the Boggles. Think of the Sword Story. The Trickster creates a destructive situation  and the universe reacts to halt that destruction.

The status quo is adversely affected by the Trickster's Disorder..The Trickster's actions rarely improve anything.

There is the aspect of Eurmal Firebringer, the Friend of Men. The Gloranthan Prometheus story. Handing a dangerous and destructive force to unprepared people. Basically, it is the story of an earlier Gods War, ending the Green Age and descending into the Golden Age of repetition ad nauseum. Not really different from the Sword Story - after Eurmal's theft of Fire, everybody has it and uses it, whether the Hykimi, Bakan's folk, or the folk from Danmalastan. 

The era of fire ended the ready to pick your food stage of the Green Age. Rather than just collecting what the need when they need it, people are forced to work for what they need, to plan ahead, to create ways to control one another. The Golden Age.

[soltakss]

23 hours ago, jajagappa said:

On 12/11/2020 at 8:37 AM, lordabdul said:

The Lunars-as-bad-guys probably grew out of the push for clan-based campaigns where the PCs are supposed to care for their community as opposed to being murder-tourists on a tour of Dragon Pass.

No, it was a theme well before that.  One of the premises in my Imther campaign (which I started way back in 1987) was that not all Lunars are bad/evil!  I particularly focused on Lunars being very human (mix of good and bad) and the majority of the PC's were part of Lunar cults.

Lunars have always been the bad guys.

We played Dragon pass in the early 80s and our RQ2 game had a big theme of pushing the Lunar Occupiers from Sartar and Prax. In both cases the Lunars were bad guys, although not inherently evil, that was reserved for Chaos and for people we didn't like.

[Akhôrahil]

57 minutes ago, soltakss said:

In both cases the Lunars were bad guys, although not inherently evil, that was reserved for Chaos and for people we didn't like.

Yeah, I mean the Lunars are the enemy, but our neighbour clan, those guys are the ENEMY.

[Orlanthatemyhamster]

On 12/8/2020 at 6:43 PM, Jeff said:

I find the Argrath "hatred" I see on forums to be quite boring.

Nothing to do with the campaign you are running of his fervent supporters though?

[Orlanthatemyhamster]

11 hours ago, soltakss said:

Lunars have always been the bad guys.

We played Dragon pass in the early 80s and our RQ2 game had a big theme of pushing the Lunar Occupiers from Sartar and Prax. In both cases the Lunars were bad guys, although not inherently evil, that was reserved for Chaos and for people we didn't like.

I think there was a time when they tried to do something new during the Heroquest years, with the Lunar Handbooks et al, but now they seem to have decided to return to the Sartar=good, Lunars=bad thing with a vengeance. It's a pity because it would have made it stand out from almost every other (major) RPG.

[Rodney Dangerduck]

13 hours ago, soltakss said:

Lunars have always been the bad guys.

One of the good features of Argrath is that he is pretty tolerant of Lunar civilians.  Much more so than many Heortlings.

[Leingod]

14 minutes ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

One of the good features of Argrath is that he is pretty tolerant of Lunar civilians.  Much more so than many Heortlings.

Which is actually significant in the context of Prax and Pavis. There is, unless I'm forgetting something important, no mention of Argrath's liberation of the city and then the region being a massive bloodbath where every Lunar colonist, convert, and collaborator was hunted down and put to the sword. And this despite the fact that the Praxian nomads and Sartarite settlers who made up the large majority of his political and military support at the time would have been 100% in favor of it and in fact would likely have needed him to give direct orders against doing so. And the writers of Argrath's saga could easily have spun that into something less horrible-sounding and so wouldn't need to shy away from it if that's what he did, so it probably shouldn't be written off as just oversights for the sake of making sure Argrath still looks good.

[John Biles]

1 hour ago, Leingod said:

Which is actually significant in the context of Prax and Pavis. There is, unless I'm forgetting something important, no mention of Argrath's liberation of the city and then the region being a massive bloodbath where every Lunar colonist, convert, and collaborator was hunted down and put to the sword. And this despite the fact that the Praxian nomads and Sartarite settlers who made up the large majority of his political and military support at the time would have been 100% in favor of it and in fact would likely have needed him to give direct orders against doing so. And the writers of Argrath's saga could easily have spun that into something less horrible-sounding and so wouldn't need to shy away from it if that's what he did, so it probably shouldn't be written off as just oversights for the sake of making sure Argrath still looks good.

King of Sartar says every Lunar soldier was put to the blade and killed but says nothing about the treatment of non-soldier (p. 125)

The Nomads plundered for two days, then passed out drunk (p. 153)  After taking the city.

Argath's Saga, p. 16, seems to indicate that some of the Lunar Soldiers surrendered after Pavis came out of his temple-tomb.

 

 

 

 

[jajagappa]

14 hours ago, Orlanthatemyhamster said:

but now they seem to have decided to return to the Sartar=good, Lunars=bad thing with a vengeance.

I actually don't see that.  By removing the "shackle" of an occupied/rebellious Sartar, it opens up more possibilities of Lunars traveling through or coming to Sartar and being more tolerated.  I think this is the idea with the pregen Vostor and with the village of Renekot's Hope described in the Pegasus Plateau adventures.  

Here's a few of the themes you could use to mix Lunar characters into a campaign:

• the disillusioned soldier/mercenary
• the ambitious Etyries merchant looking to reestablish trade routes
• the devout Seven Mothers priestess who sees the Empire as misguided or wrong, or who believes the mission of healing is still correct and is now free of politics
• the Irrippi Ontor sage who offers knowledge and service to new leaders

[jajagappa]

12 hours ago, Leingod said:

Which is actually significant in the context of Prax and Pavis. There is, unless I'm forgetting something important, no mention of Argrath's liberation of the city and then the region being a massive bloodbath where every Lunar colonist, convert, and collaborator was hunted down and put to the sword. And this despite the fact that the Praxian nomads and Sartarite settlers who made up the large majority of his political and military support at the time would have been 100% in favor of it and in fact would likely have needed him to give direct orders against doing so. And the writers of Argrath's saga could easily have spun that into something less horrible-sounding and so wouldn't need to shy away from it if that's what he did, so it probably shouldn't be written off as just oversights for the sake of making sure Argrath still looks good.

There was a whole episode around this in Jeff's White Bull campaign.  The PC's actually helped the leading Lunar citizen escape the nomads.

Once the two days of pillaging and looting are past, there are likely quite a few Lunars who will look to establish relationships with the new regime in power.

[Akhôrahil]

10 hours ago, John Biles said:

King of Sartar says every Lunar soldier was put to the blade and killed but says nothing about the treatment of non-soldier (p. 125)

The Nomads plundered for two days, then passed out drunk (p. 153)  After taking the city.

Argath's Saga, p. 16, seems to indicate that some of the Lunar Soldiers surrendered after Pavis came out of his temple-tomb.

I also don't imagine the Grantlands settlers had a good time when the tribes swept down on them (I'm assuming massacres and enslavement), but that wouldn't really be anything Argrath could be blamed for directly.

[jajagappa]

2 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

I also don't imagine the Grantlands settlers had a good time when the tribes swept down on them (I'm assuming massacres and enslavement)

I think a lot of Lunars will turn up as slaves being sold at Pimper's Block.  Many may be acquired as thralls by ambitious clans near the Praxian border anxious to build up their communities with experienced crafters, guards, scribes, or even laborers.  Any could end up as PC's.

[Akhôrahil]

10 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

I think a lot of Lunars will turn up as slaves being sold at Pimper's Block.  Many may be acquired as thralls by ambitious clans near the Praxian border anxious to build up their communities with experienced crafters, guards, scribes, or even laborers.  Any could end up as PC's.

Given that they're overwhelmingly non-combatants (and often even pacifists, if they're white moonies), I would assume lots of enslavement, agree.

[Jape_Vicho]

17 hours ago, John Biles said:

King of Sartar says every Lunar soldier was put to the blade and killed but says nothing about the treatment of non-soldier (p. 125)

The Nomads plundered for two days, then passed out drunk (p. 153)  After taking the city.

I remember being horrified when I read this. For one part, the massacre of "soldiers" (we all know that there were way more civilian converts than any pro-sartar chronicler would admit) is absolutely terrible but in line with Argrath's modus operandi and historical parallels, but even more shocking is letting the first and foremost enemies of Pavis to run rampant through it and do what they please.

And to think they only murdered lunars is incredibly naive too, one does not plunder "selectively", when an army enters a city to plunder it, there are no limits, and even less with a force that consists of an amalgamation of tribes that hate each others guts. Those 2 days may have been the worst ones in the city's history.

Of course this is my view that will most definetly contradict what happens in Jeff's campaign (that I have not yet watched)

 

7 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

I also don't imagine the Grantlands settlers had a good time when the tribes swept down on them (I'm assuming massacres and enslavement), but that wouldn't really be anything Argrath could be blamed for directly.

Aren't the Grantlands kinda holding on in 1625? I tried looking in the Guide but I could only find mentions that they are there. Might have missed something.

 

22 hours ago, Orlanthatemyhamster said:

but now they seem to have decided to return to the Sartar=good, Lunars=bad thing with a vengeance. It's a pity because it would have made it stand out from almost every other (major) RPG.

You think? In recent years there have been a lot of simpathetic sources with the lunars. Prince of Sartar for exemple takes a definitely good view on the lunars. And I dont want to make spoilers, so I won't say anything, but if you take my word for it, none of the adventures officially published for RQG show that kind of thinking (neither do any I have read from the JC).

[John Biles]

5 minutes ago, Jape_Vicho said:

I remember being horrified when I read this. For one part, the massacre of "soldiers" (we all know that there were way more civilian converts than any pro-sartar chronicler would admit) is absolutely terrible but in line with Argrath's modus operandi and historical parallels, but even more shocking is letting the first and foremost enemies of Pavis to run rampant through it and do what they please.

And to think they only murdered lunars is incredibly naive too, one does not plunder "selectively", when an army enters a city to plunder it, there are no limits, and even less with a force that consists of an amalgamation of tribes that hate each others guts. Those 2 days may have been the worst ones in the city's history.

Of course this is my view that will most definetly contradict what happens in Jeff's campaign (that I have not yet watched)

 

Leading an army of Praxian nomads against Pavis is inevitably going to result in a huge number of dead people.  Most Praxians would wipe the whole place off the face of Glorantha if given the chance.