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why is Argrath considered an asshole?


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20 hours ago, Jape_Vicho said:

On the matter of Argrath being a "Mary Sue" (term that should leave the english vocabulary), do we really have any proof of the flame of Sartar not working on anyone that hasn't Sartar's blood? For all we know it could be an elaborate lie and it only needs some kind of ritual, or a strong will.

Kallyr is probably of Sartar's bloodline but if you see Argrath supposed family tree, it is hardly believable, also, it is suggested that all the "white bull" thing was an illusion too. On the historical side take the "world's first empire maker" Sargon of Accad, he elaborated a complex myth about his ancestry, when he was possibly just an usurper, that's what complex myths about one's ancestry and lineage are used for, justifying people that have taken power and are not of noble birth. 

So maybe he's not a super protagonist that has everything given to him, just a really good Trickster. 

YGMV, but the position of high priest of Sartar - that's the Orlanth Rex for all the tribes of Sartar, aka the Prince of Sartar - is restricted to members of Sartar's lineage. Kallyr's grandfather was a son of Jarolar who died at the Battle of Dwarf Ford in 1557. Argrath's lineage is even more distant - his grandmother was the Triceratops Queen, who was in turn the granddaughter of Onelisin the Cat Witch, the famed daughter of Prince Saronil, and the subject of many songs and stories.

These genealogies are going to be pretty well-known. Lots of Colymar knew Maniski and Yanioth Two Sight. Many more knew Arene the Triceratops Queen, whose herd of dinosaurs destroyed the village of Janastan in the Moaning Valley. 

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37 minutes ago, Jeff said:

YGMV, but the position of high priest of Sartar - that's the Orlanth Rex for all the tribes of Sartar, aka the Prince of Sartar - is restricted to members of Sartar's lineage. Kallyr's grandfather was a son of Jarolar who died at the Battle of Dwarf Ford in 1557. Argrath's lineage is even more distant - his grandmother was the Triceratops Queen, who was in turn the granddaughter of Onelisin the Cat Witch, the famed daughter of Prince Saronil, and the subject of many songs and stories.

These genealogies are going to be pretty well-known. Lots of Colymar knew Maniski and Yanioth Two Sight. Many more knew Arene the Triceratops Queen, whose herd of dinosaurs destroyed the village of Janastan in the Moaning Valley. 

This is why Leika could not light the Flame. Sartar's magic lets the Prince use Orlanth Rex magic on any member of any tribe of Sartar, any citizen of any of the cities of Sartar, and all those traveling on the royal roads of Sartar. That's POWERFUL leadership magic, and includes Command Priests and Command Worshipers, as well as Detect Honor. But the magic comes from Sartar as an ancestor. 

So if you are not descended from Sartar, you need to find something other than the Cult of Sartar to unify the tribes. Which is going to be as big of an undertaking as what Sartar did in the first place.

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2 hours ago, Jeff said:

YGMV, but the position of high priest of Sartar - that's the Orlanth Rex for all the tribes of Sartar, aka the Prince of Sartar - is restricted to members of Sartar's lineage. Kallyr's grandfather was a son of Jarolar who died at the Battle of Dwarf Ford in 1557. Argrath's lineage is even more distant - his grandmother was the Triceratops Queen, who was in turn the granddaughter of Onelisin the Cat Witch, the famed daughter of Prince Saronil, and the subject of many songs and stories.

These genealogies are going to be pretty well-known. Lots of Colymar knew Maniski and Yanioth Two Sight. Many more knew Arene the Triceratops Queen, whose herd of dinosaurs destroyed the village of Janastan in the Moaning Valley. 

Does Sartar's lineage have to be from birth, or would being adopted into the bloodline make you a member too?

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8 hours ago, Eff said:

Does Sartar's lineage have to be from birth, or would being adopted into the bloodline make you a member too?

It could be by merit. Something similar happened to Harmast Barefoot, whose tribal (Berennethtelli) tattoo altered slowly but decisively into that of the Kodigvari, causing all manner of adverse reactions when he toured Esrolia to fight the drought caused by Palangio (?) in his Niskis the Lover rites.

Having a movement rune tattoo (for instance, chosen because of the greatest similarity) metamorph into the Sartar rune without intercession of a human tattoo artist could be seen as proof of descent from the royal house, regardless whether one's biological ancestors even ever had been near any descendants of Sartar.

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4 hours ago, Joerg said:

It could be by merit. Something similar happened to Harmast Barefoot, whose tribal (Berennethtelli) tattoo altered slowly but decisively into that of the Kodigvari, causing all manner of adverse reactions when he toured Esrolia to fight the drought caused by Palangio (?) in his Niskis the Lover rites.

You have to wonder about Broyan’s ancestry the same way. I would assume that you can heroquest yourself into a mythical adoption?

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1 hour ago, Akhôrahil said:

You have to wonder about Broyan’s ancestry the same way. I would assume that you can heroquest yourself into a mythical adoption?

On the other hand, I'm sure a lot of Heortlings have Vingkot as a blood ancestor if they go back far enough. It might be less a mythical adoption and more of a mythical recognition of being Vingkot's descendant. Which is functionally the same thing, admittedly.

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On 12/20/2020 at 4:39 AM, Eff said:

A lot of stuff.

The point I was trying to make is that my objection is to the killing of a large number of people for any reason. 


"I certainty don't believe the Dragonrise was at all intentional enough to even constitute manslaughter, let alone murder, and therefore can't be genocide, because I do believe that the distinguishing element of genocide is the extermination of people, primarily on racial or ethnic background"

They were all worshipper of the Red Moon if that helps? Wiki says it's usually defined as an ethnic, national, racial or religious group, a bit of an expansion from my first one, but it just expands on 'ethnic' in the end.
I think your huge bias is showing. You really don't think that raising a true dragon, something that's longer than a valley, is not going to kill a lot of people?
Here's a paraphrase I know you will recognise, 'It was called the Dragonkill War not because of what happened to the Dragons, but because of what they did.'
Argarth didn't know that something many times the size of Gonn Orta would cause death and mayhem if it rose up? Boy is he stupid then!

 You can't actually believe that, can you?




 

Edited by Orlanthatemyhamster
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Just now, Orlanthatemyhamster said:

The point I was trying to make is that my objection is to the killing of a large number of people for any reason. Do you not mind that as long as its in the background and can be safely ignored?


"I certainty don't believe the Dragonrise was at all intentional enough to even constitute manslaughter, let alone murder, and therefore can't be genocide, because I do believe that the distinguishing element of genocide is the extermination of people, primarily on racial or ethnic background"

They were all worshipper of the Red Moon if that helps? Wiki says it's usually defined as an ethnic, national, racial or religious group, a bit of an expansion from my first one, but it just expands on 'ethnic' in the end.
I think your huge bias is showing. You really don't think that raising a true dragon, something that's longer than a valley, is not going to kill a lot of people?
Here's a paraphrase I know you will recognise, 'It was called the Dragonkill War not because of what happened to the Dragons, but because of what they did.'
Argarth didn't know that something many times the size of Gonn Orta would cause death and mayhem if it rose up? Boy is he stupid then!

 You can't actually believe that, can you?




 

I personally don't mind it even if it's partially foregrounded. I think that play should be able to accommodate both of us, though, to be clear, and have it make sense. 

I don't think the Brown Dragon was deliberately raised or brought into existence, no, based on what Jeff Richard has described about the Iron Ring's intent in invading the sanctifying of the Reaching Moon Temple. The goal was to disrupt the ceremony, the end-result was outwardly unexpected by Kallyr or anyone else, and the overall effect seems to have had so many bad and immediately foreseeable consequences for Kallyr that it would require her to be very foolish or fanatical indeed to actually plan such a thing. 

As for Argrath creating it, or summoning it, all the way from Pavis with Orlaront Dragonfriend as his hatchetman... I give that only the slight bit more credence it has than the "Argrath summoned griffins to defend the Cradle" bit of Argrathsaga because there is nothing that directly contradicts it. But, I mean, it's about as supported and reasonable to claim that the Brown Dragon emerged because Godunya was feeling shirty that day about the quality of his mabo dofu, in that Godunya is not associated with the event, but at least has some kind of credible power over dragons at this point. 

I think, to delve into Deep Lore Speculation, that you could say that the way was prepared by Argrath and Kallyr, or rather by the Wolf Pirates and White Bull Society and Iron Ring of Sartar, in that they did things which opened the way for a reawakening of Arangorf the Inner Dragon, draconic consciousness, the eventual return of Sh'hakar'zeel, etc. etc., but that's a long way from presuming that things like raising the Boat Planet were intended to lead to the Dragonrise. 

I think that saying "Well, they were all Lunars or Lunarized," while only dubiously true, is also kind of splitting hairs, because even if the Dragonrise was an intentional massacre (which I still disagree with), it still wasn't aimed at the destruction of Lunars as a group of people, it was aimed at preventing the creation of a Reaching Moon Temple in Sartar through the expedient of specifically killing the priests necessary to sanctify such a temple. 

If we wanted to point to religious persecution of a potentially genocidal character by traditional Orlanthi against Lunars, we could look to violence against Lunarized Sartarites and presume that all Seven Mothers initiates were killed or expelled, and that anyone participating in any kind of Lunarized rite was at the most merciful forcibly cleansed, and so on and so forth, and we could catalog horrors till the cows came home (so long as we butchered the red ones and incinerated their meat as tainted by Shepelkirt, har har har). It's beyond me why I would do this, or really why anyone would do this. The most plausible reason for me would be to play on the heartstrings about the wicked, wicked Sartarite barbarians in a Lunar game... and also make the obvious propaganda literally true without complication. That's not a game I would run on multiple levels, and it's also not something I would include in Gloranthan fiction, or in designing or playing a Gloranthan board game, or designing a Gloranthan doujinshi video game, etc. 

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6 minutes ago, Eff said:



I don't think the Brown Dragon was deliberately raised or brought into existence, no, based on what Jeff Richard has described about the Iron Ring's intent in invading the sanctifying of the Reaching Moon Temple. The goal was to disrupt the ceremony, the end-result was outwardly unexpected by Kallyr or anyone else, and the overall effect seems to have had so many bad and immediately foreseeable consequences for Kallyr that it would require her to be very foolish or fanatical indeed to actually plan such a thing. 
 

Jeff has been trying to remake Argarth in his own image since Greg died, you only have look at his White Bollocks campaign to see that. If not Glorantha. So that's a conversation ender for me.

Sorry to have wasted your time.

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Just now, Orlanthatemyhamster said:

Jeff has been trying to remake Argarth in his own image since Greg died, you only have look at his White Bollocks campaign to see that. If not Glorantha. So that's a conversation ender for me.

Sorry to have wasted your time.

That's fair. I will simply note that that's only really a subsidiary thing for me compared to things like the sheer stupidity of summoning a dragon to create approximately 14-15 feuds against you from the tribes you'll need behind you 100% if you want to actually pull off your restoration of Sartar and the way that, in sources going all the way back to the early 90s at least, Kallyr is consistently described as acting as if she didn't expect this outcome. 

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1 hour ago, Akhôrahil said:

It’s worth mentioning that the Dragonrise being unintential is a retcon - in Sartar Rising, it’s clearly Orlaronth’s and Kallyr’s plan all along.

I don't think that's the strongest interpretation of the text there (leaving aside any silliness about canon). There's nothing in the scenario about asking the dragon to do anything specifically, and the main focus in the description is on Kallyr striking a deal with the dead dragon that gets the dragon to withdraw its hostility to the Orlanthi. You can read that as "emerge here on this date and eat these people", yes. But to go back to the first edition of King of Sartar, the Composite History of Dragon Pass indicates that Orlaront was not aware of the Brown Dragon, and it's only Argrathsaga that insists that the Dragonrise was consciously planned, and Argrathsaga attributes this to a plan between Minaryth, Orlaront, and Argrath. And in Sartar Rising, both Minaryth and Orlaront are clearly aligned with Kallyr. 

All of which is to say, I read the scenario in Gathering Thunder as Kallyr and Orlaront looking for draconic help, perhaps negating the Lunar use of dragonewts, but not expecting what they actually got. Which is consistent with Moirades being able to move quicker than Kallyr after the Dragonrise in the first edition of King of Sartar. 

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I tend to err on the side of the Dragonrise being unintentional; clearly there was some conscious attempt to ally with draconic powers, and obviously they intended to disrupt the ceremony at the new Reaching Moon Temple, but much of the evidence seems to weigh on the side of an actual dragon coming out and eating everybody there very much not being a part of the plan.

I think it's very fitting for the opening moves of the Hero Wars to be first the Lunars (with the Great Winter) and then the Orlanthi messing with powers beyond their reckoning to dramatically unexpected results with far-reaching consequences, with even more to come.

And honestly, I think it would also be very fitting as a prelude of what's to come if we believe that Argrath had nothing to do with the Dragonrise at all but would (and eventually will) gladly claim the credit once the actual architects are either safely dead or on his side and seeing things his way.

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8 hours ago, Eff said:

I don't think that's the strongest interpretation of the text there (leaving aside any silliness about canon).

'The myths can be changed. Maybe this time the Dragon will devour the Emperor ... I have heard there may be a fourth dragon in our land. My associate Garstal claims to have seen this "Jarn-thing" ... ' 
—Minaryth Purple, The Gathering Thunder p. 50

5 hours ago, Leingod said:

And honestly, I think it would also be very fitting as a prelude of what's to come if we believe that Argrath had nothing to do with the Dragonrise at all but would (and eventually will) gladly claim the credit once the actual architects are either safely dead or on his side and seeing things his way.

Totally agree here, it's definitely his style. When he becomes king, it was Kallyr who did all the heavy lifting with the rebellion, and it more or less falls into his lap.

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10 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

It’s worth mentioning that the Dragonrise being unintential is a retcon - in Sartar Rising, it’s clearly Orlaronth’s and Kallyr’s plan all along.

As @"Storm Khan" points out, the Feathered Horse Queen has a strong claim to be the originator of the plan for the Dragonrise:

https://basicroleplaying.org/topic/13223-kallyrs-dragonrise-heroquest/page/2/?tab=comments#comment-205848

He quotes from P17 of Gloranthan Sourcebook.

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2 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

'The myths can be changed. Maybe this time the Dragon will devour the Emperor ... I have heard there may be a fourth dragon in our land. My associate Garstal claims to have seen this "Jarn-thing" ... ' 
—Minaryth Purple, The Gathering Thunder p. 50

Totally agree here, it's definitely his style. When he becomes king, it was Kallyr who did all the heavy lifting with the rebellion, and it more or less falls into his lap.

And the Red Emperor isn't present at the Dragonrise, so I don't see any reason to assume Minaryth is talking about a literal devouring there rather than the summoning of draconic aid into their attempt to reenact the Doom Conjunction.

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4 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

'The myths can be changed. Maybe this time the Dragon will devour the Emperor ... I have heard there may be a fourth dragon in our land. My associate Garstal claims to have seen this "Jarn-thing" ... ' 
—Minaryth Purple, The Gathering Thunder p. 50

Totally agree here, it's definitely his style. When he becomes king, it was Kallyr who did all the heavy lifting with the rebellion, and it more or less falls into his lap.

I think a strong argument could be made that it was Broyan who did the heavy lifting with the rebellion (Kallyr's rebellion failed and had terrible consequences), and with Broyan's death and Argrath's reversal when he tried to attack the New Lunar Temple in Fire Season, the rewards more or less fell into Kallyr's lap.

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58 minutes ago, Jeff said:

I think a strong argument could be made that it was Broyan who did the heavy lifting with the rebellion (Kallyr's rebellion failed and had terrible consequences), and with Broyan's death and Argrath's reversal when he tried to attack the New Lunar Temple in Fire Season, the rewards more or less fell into Kallyr's lap.

I agree we shouldn't discount Broyan, but Kallyr also worked her ass off for the rebellion, and without aborting the Temple of the Reaching Moon, it would probably all have been over for the Rebellion anyway. This is the destruction of the Death Star, and without her, would there have been much of a rebellion in place to even rise afterwards? 

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2 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

I agree we shouldn't discount Broyan, but Kallyr also worked her ass off for the rebellion, and without aborting the Temple of the Reaching Moon, it would probably all have been over for the Rebellion anyway. This is the destruction of the Death Star, and without her, would there have been much of a rebellion in place to even rise afterwards? 

Again, who is to say Kallyr was responsible for the Dragonrise or even had any idea that would happen? She was part of it, but so were a lot of other people. Including Argrath. And many others. It is entirely possible that Tatius the Bright was the main person responsible.

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19 minutes ago, Jeff said:

Again, who is to say Kallyr was responsible for the Dragonrise or even had any idea that would happen?

I'm assuming the attack would have managed to mess up the consecration of the temple even without any dragons showing? Nowhere near as dramatically, of course, but definitely set it back by a lot, and killed a bunch of the ceremonialists. That's a big win already.

Edited by Akhôrahil
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11 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

I'm assuming the attack would have managed to mess up the consecration of the temple even without any dragons showing? Nowhere near as dramatically, of course, but definitely set it back by a lot, and killed a bunch of the ceremonialists. That's a big win already.

The CHDP chronicler doesn't appear to have had access to the Sartar Rising books and the architecture of their ritual sabotage is a little clearer in some respects there. 

The real goal was apparently always creating a sympathetic opening for the green star to make an appearance above and be answered by some dragon power closing the circuit below. The timing indicates that they wanted to be as far from the site as possible before that proton torpedo went off. At best, it covered their retreat. At worst, it looks like a suicide mission.

CHDP is very careful about assigning plausible deniability. Even Orlaront says he didn't know the magnitude of the dragon power they were calling up. He gets banished anyway as Starbrow is "seeking to contain what had been awakened." Maybe someone somewhere is trying to cover up an inconvenient truth. I have always been in love with the CHDP account so really can't say.

I think that simply calling the Ring to its rightful place in an otherwise sanitized ritual sky wouldn't have bought them anything beyond a short-term stalemate motivating the empire to torch the jungle, as it were. They needed to flip the board and put the empire on the defensive. That requires opening yourself up to something bigger than what you started out with. All the orange stars were in play but on a perfect mirror something green was required . . . and then the ground rose up to meet it.

Because I like human drama I side with CHDP and think they were making a huge leap of desperation and faith that they'd draw a better card from the deck. Other people have more worldly perspectives.

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1 hour ago, Jeff said:

Again, who is to say Kallyr was responsible for the Dragonrise or even had any idea that would happen? She was part of it, but so were a lot of other people. Including Argrath. And many others. It is entirely possible that Tatius the Bright was the main person responsible.

...which sounds to me like the Dragonrise will never be fully "explained" officially, which is GREAT since different groups will be able to make it what they want... but I'm learning about a bunch of moving parts I didn't know about before, just by skimming this thread. Are these different moving parts and elements going to be written in, say, the Dragon Pass Campaign book? (a "here is what the PCs might know or learn about.... now come up with your own conclusions and gaming opportunities" kind of chapter)  I'm asking because I'm a bit worried that even though the Dragonrise is obviously a SUPER BIG DEAL in Glorantha, it ends up being treated as a footnote in practice: something that happened just before you start playing, and then is forgotten as everybody goes adventuring and rallying troops for upcoming battles.

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5 hours ago, Jeff said:

I think a strong argument could be made that it was Broyan who did the heavy lifting with the rebellion (Kallyr's rebellion failed and had terrible consequences), and with Broyan's death and Argrath's reversal when he tried to attack the New Lunar Temple in Fire Season, the rewards more or less fell into Kallyr's lap.

An interesting take.

I look at who drew the Lunars' attention, and, in that regard, Kallyr seems to draw more countermeasures than Argrath.  Jar-Eel personally intercepted her Short LBQ.  And the assassins sent to the Battle of Queens seem serious and well planned.  By comparison, the assassins sent after Argrath in  Pavis seem a bit slapdash - face it, some young PCs defeated them remotely on YouTube.  🙂  (a)

In that respect, it sure seems like the Lunars believe that Kallyr was more of a prime mover than Argrath.  They (and I) could be mistaken.

(a) My wacko conspiracy theory is that Argrath indirectly hired some Black Fangs knowing they would fail.

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29 minutes ago, scott-martin said:

The CHDP chronicler doesn't appear to have had access to the Sartar Rising books and the architecture of their ritual sabotage is a little clearer in some respects there. 

The real goal was apparently always creating a sympathetic opening for the green star to make an appearance above and be answered by some dragon power closing the circuit below. The timing indicates that they wanted to be as far from the site as possible before that proton torpedo went off. At best, it covered their retreat. At worst, it looks like a suicide mission.

CHDP is very careful about assigning plausible deniability. Even Orlaront says he didn't know the magnitude of the dragon power they were calling up. He gets banished anyway as Starbrow is "seeking to contain what had been awakened." Maybe someone somewhere is trying to cover up an inconvenient truth. I have always been in love with the CHDP account so really can't say.

I think that simply calling the Ring to its rightful place in an otherwise sanitized ritual sky wouldn't have bought them anything beyond a short-term stalemate motivating the empire to torch the jungle, as it were. They needed to flip the board and put the empire on the defensive. That requires opening yourself up to something bigger than what you started out with. All the orange stars were in play but on a perfect mirror something green was required . . . and then the ground rose up to meet it.

Because I like human drama I side with CHDP and think they were making a huge leap of desperation and faith that they'd draw a better card from the deck. Other people have more worldly perspectives.

My thought, after looking at Sartar Rising again, is that the idea was to hop between Sky World heroquests, going from Orlanth's approach to the Celestial City (which could be from a number of mythical instances, and this crossover probably makes the second part possible) and then switching over to Burbustus against Yelm. Since the Temple of the Reaching Moon was meant to subjugate Sartar, and Burbustus became Yelm's throne, a heroquest wherein Burbustus defeated and overcame Yelm would thus invert the authority created by the myth and defuse the ability of the Reaching Moon Temple to claim sovereignty over this piece of ground. 

But in order to get onto that quest, you'd need to be recognized as a dragon... Which opens up the possibility that the Brown Dragon awoke because it felt the threat to a fellow dragon above it. 

And this is still in its way a desperation, Death Star attack sort of mission- it's hugely risky, could kill off the last remnants of the House of Sartar as far as the Iron Ring is aware and finds credible, and ultimately all it does if performed "correctly" would be to buy time with the Reaching Moon Temple remaining out of service and needing a lengthy time to prepare it for consecration again. 

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49 minutes ago, Eff said:

hop between Sky World heroquests, going from Orlanth's approach to the Celestial City

Not to cloud the dance floor (a cloud like a star) any further but I suspect the Sartar Rising poets are a lot deeper in sky magic than I am with their juggling stars and planets and such. We can all fight over whether this means they were close to the Kallyr court or simply rocking adjacent mysteries . . . this is a good fight to have.

Being a simple and uncomplicated person, I really do see the Dragonrise as a straightforward application of sympathy and contagion. The visiting team had set up their set of identifications so they could force the local sky to hold a certain configuration (perpetual full). Home team finds a weak entry point and within the ritual vocabulary becomes identified with the ring. The sky can't reject the ring once it's there. Everyone knows the ring contains a green star so the perfection of the ritual stage requires a green star to emerge from somewhere. As above, so necessarily below. The dragon emerges. Little orange stars exit as the ring does. The sky gets on with its work.

The simplicity may be a tell that Kallyr and her tricky sky people truly weren't in the loop or at least involved with the ritual planning. All we really know is that they had orders not to molest Pole Star if they could help it, which seems to be a concession to her known all(eg)iances. 

It raises a great question whether Burbustus magic is intrinsic to the Reaching Moon network or just a local flourish designed to set the temple into the local ecology. If Burbustus runs the Yara temples in the east, that's awfully interesting. If he doesn't, that's interesting too because then the question is how those temples work, why they changed (feedback from local sacred mountains?) and whether Storm Pent has anything to say about Reaching Storm when that happens!

 

Edited by scott-martin
better denouement
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