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sorcery headache: how do you counter steal breath?


coffeemancer

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Of course Tappers will be targeted by any opposing magicians, nothing unfair about that. Thunderbolt is nasty. Sending storm entities is nasty, whether something like Wind Fists or sylphs able to pick up your sorcerer.

Opponents might wrap themselves into sylphs. That way, the air gets resistance rolls against the Tapping.

For a different twist, his constant Tapping might attract a chaotic ally, creating trouble with berserkers who succeed in any CON rolls while under the influence. Even if the Tapping doesn't tickle the Storm Bull's Sense Chaos (or does it?), the weakening of their god's element will lead to rage among the bullies.

The victim teleporting behind the sorcerer will likely break his concentration, and subsequent physical attacks won't make life easier for him, either.

An enemy sorcerer might use the spell on your sorcerer...

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Telling how it is excessive verbis

 

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It says suffocation starts the round after the casting (which implies no suprise on the victim), thus suffocation is CONx5 for the first 5 rounds - so that should give any respectable opponent a good chance to cause the caster to force the caster to make a concentration roll to maintain the spell.  The spell is also active in which case the caster will have difficulty moving away from other opponents, who now see the sorcerer as a dangerous opponent.  TAPing the very essence on ones god can be seen very negatively by worshipers of the Air pantheon (most of Satar and Prax), and thus the reputation of the sorcerer will cause unfair targeting by the locals.

 

Just like when fighting against an opponent with a high weapon skill, multiple opponents are usually a better challenge than a single "tough guy" - I recall that in my game my party decimated a Dragon in 1 single combat round.

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Many good ideas here.

Further questions: what detirmines the power of a sorcery spell? even with countermagic 3 my npc's magical defences were easily overcome by the sorcerer's 13 power spell. but we might be doing the rules wrong.

 

Tapping might have social rammification you say? I had not even considered that outside of regular old Sartarite disdain for sorcery

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1 hour ago, coffeemancer said:

the sorcerer's 13 power spell

==> don't add any more magic points matrix (or spirit) in your world.

==> augment the number of encouters : two fights by day so the sorcerer has not enough magic point to manage it

==> as said, use opponent with high con (15+)

=> give a sorcerer with the same spell, or any magician with the same magic points to dismiss it.

=== more unfair :

=> send some disease spirit to reduce the free int

=>fire your player from your table

=> kill the player

=> use Eurmal trick... after one year of scenarii , the sorcerer discover that it was an hallucination, he is not a sorcerer but a farmer, there was no adventure, etc...

 

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If the sorcerer does not increase the intensity at all then a 1-point dispel or dismiss magic will work. Any increase in range, duration, or strength will make it harder to dispel, but also increases the time taken to cast.

The mechanics for resisting sorcery are a bit of a mess. Some spells say that you match the strength of the spell against the POW of the target. Some do not, but it has been clarified that the general magic rule of resisting POW vs POW also applies to sorcery, so I guess Steal Breath needs a POW vs POW. It's just that some other spells use Spell Strength vs POW, so you have to crank up a big spell for it to work.

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4 hours ago, coffeemancer said:

Many good ideas here.

Further questions: what detirmines the power of a sorcery spell? even with countermagic 3 my npc's magical defences were easily overcome by the sorcerer's 13 power spell. but we might be doing the rules wrong.

The spell will usually have a duration component which I would rule is not part of the spell strength interacting with the Countermagic. Likewise with a range component. What interacts with the Countermagic is the intensity of the spell. 

Countermagic 3 will prevent a Steal Breath causing 2D6 of MP gain from manifesting, but will evaporate in the process.

 

The spell duration determines how long the sorcerer can keep the tapped MP available. If he manages to keep concentration, he could gain the rolled amount of MP over the entire duration, but then he wouldn't be able to make use of the bounty. Storing MP in crystals or other devices takes time. So does casting other MP-hungry spells.

I guess I would not allow the sorcerer to take a break from Tapping. Once his concentration falters or the target leaves the targeting perception, the conversion of air to MP stops. The spell still goes on in the passive mode that allows the sorcerer to keep those MP available.

As long as the sorcerer has as many or more MP than his personal maximum, the spell continues in passive mode. That passive mode spell can be dispelled, which would result in a dispersal of any MP exceeding the sorcerer's capacity.

However, there doesn't seem to be any prohibition against casting another Tap spell after the first one has become passive. A Tapper will usually run around with maybe half a dozen, maybe dozens of ongoing passive Tap spells containing a certain amount of excess MP.

What is the magnitude to dispel a sorcerer's passive tap spell? I would rule that it is only the intensity of the spell which needs to be dispelled (or otherwise destroyed), regardless of how many MP are kept available by that spell. Those are inside a container, available for use, which means they aren't part of the magic that holds the container together.

This gives a Tapper quite a bit of administrative work. An ongoing passive Tap spell has a magnitude, a duration (or "best before" date), and an amount of MP held in that spell. The latter amount can be reduced.

A munchkin Tapper would probably keep at least one MP in any passive Tap spell still running to make dispelling these spells an exercise in futility.

Tapped MP can be transferred into crystals or matrices, IIRC at a rate of a minute per MP. (Correct me there.) They can be lost in Spirit Combat, and will be lost before personal MP are lost. While a Tapper has MP in Tap spells, he won't regenerate any MP as his personal battery is already full.

(A Tapper who keeps making his Concentration rolls could be attacked by multiple spirits and still have a net gain of MP.)

 

How many Tap spells can be maintained at the same time?

 

 

4 hours ago, coffeemancer said:

Tapping might have social rammification you say? I had not even considered that outside of regular old Sartarite disdain for sorcery

Most Malkioni sorcerers will recognize and ostracize Tappers the same way your average Orlanthi will ostracize use of Chaos. There are other ways to surround yourself with more MP than your personal limit - the Rune spell Absorption, for instance - but anybody with more MP than a mortal human has business to carry around will be suspect.

 

There is one legitimate way for Malkioni sorcerers to surround themselves with such an over-abundance of MP, though - the use of "Worship Invisible God", presumably as a sorcerous ritual with a variable duration. If your Tapper can convince other sorcerers that he got those MP from having led a Malkioni worship service or three, he won't be suspect. Such MP would have come from the congregation, usually a low percentage of the total MP spent by the congregation in the worship service. 

The officiating wizard of say Sir Narib's Company (about 400 people in total, unless they have camp followers and servants joining in the service) might get 40 MP or so out of a worship service of the entire company where every participant spends 2 MP. There ought to be some formula offering diminishing return for increasing the congregation size - Temple size rules might apply. But that's just one sorcerer in that company, and a fairly large congregation already. A lone sorcerer toting 100 MP in various spells would be highly suspect of being a Tapper. And/or a Brithini or Vadeli.

 

On the other hand, would you dare confront a sorcerer loaded to the brim with available MP? You would have to be confident that you can keep him from casting any magic. And that includes spirit magic from matrices - something an adventuring sorcerer would be wise to carry for quick magical responses.

Fortunately there are no instant death spirit magic spells - not without support from Rune Magic, and giving those to a sorcerer in addition to spirit spell matrices would be a Monty Haul problem.

Telling how it is excessive verbis

 

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2 minutes ago, Joerg said:

The spell will usually have a duration component which I would rule is not part of the spell strength interacting with the Countermagic. Likewise with a range component. What interacts with the Countermagic is the intensity of the spell. 

Dispel Magic and Dismiss Magic have to act against the total spell Intensity, which is how many points of manipulation are applied (plus one for the basic spell, I guess). Note that this is not the sum of the Duration, Strength, and Range components as you get 1 of each for the first point of spell. So Strength 2 Range 2 Duration 2 is a 4 Intensity spell (1,1,1 is the base, with three manipulations applied).

Countermagic... I'll have to look that up... Can't find it. No idea if it's the Strength of the spell or the Intensity.

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18 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

Dispel Magic and Dismiss Magic have to act against the total spell Intensity, which is how many points of manipulation are applied (plus one for the basic spell, I guess). Note that this is not the sum of the Duration, Strength, and Range components as you get 1 of each for the first point of spell. So Strength 2 Range 2 Duration 2 is a 4 Intensity spell (1,1,1 is the base, with three manipulations applied).

This is one of the points where RQG sorcerors are at an advantage compared to RQ3: In both case, it has to counter Intensity, which for RQG is combined manipulation, and for RQ3, is equivalent to RQG Strength.

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30 minutes ago, Joerg said:

I guess I would not allow the sorcerer to take a break from Tapping. Once his concentration falters or the target leaves the targeting perception, the conversion of air to MP stops. The spell still goes on in the passive mode that allows the sorcerer to keep those MP available.

As long as the sorcerer has as many or more MP than his personal maximum, the spell continues in passive mode. That passive mode spell can be dispelled, which would result in a dispersal of any MP exceeding the sorcerer's capacity.

Same reading for me.

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1 hour ago, PhilHibbs said:

Dispel Magic and Dismiss Magic have to act against the total spell Intensity, which is how many points of manipulation are applied (plus one for the basic spell, I guess). Note that this is not the sum of the Duration, Strength, and Range components as you get 1 of each for the first point of spell. So Strength 2 Range 2 Duration 2 is a 4 Intensity spell (1,1,1 is the base, with three manipulations applied).

Countermagic... I'll have to look that up... Can't find it. No idea if it's the Strength of the spell or the Intensity.

I am not sure if this is an artifact of an old copy of the pdf or what but my descriptions for Dispel Magic (Spirit) and Dismiss Magic (Rune) each interact with sorcery differently. 

For Dispel - This spell eliminates magic: 1 point removes 1 magic point of spirit magic or intensity of sorcery spells; 2 points removes 1 point of Rune magic spells. The total points of the spell must be eliminated to destroy the spell. Thus, to dispel a Befuddle spell requires 2 points of Dispel Magic, to dispel a 1-point Shield (a Rune spell) requires 2 points, and to dispel a Conflagration spell with 4 magic points would require 4 points of Dispel Magic. One cannot Dispel only part of a spell.

For Dismiss - Cast at a target, this spell eliminates magic from the target. Each point of Dismiss Magic cancels 2 points of spirit magic or sorcery, or 1 point of Rune magic. Only the spell strength of sorcerous spells (see page 385) needs to be overcome.When cast against a general target, without specifying any particular effect or spell, Dismiss Magic always destroys defensive spells first, beginning with the most powerful spell that it can affect. However, it may be successfully cast against a specific spell if the caster can magically discern or can otherwise guess the specific spell.

 

This means that at least for RAW a Priest/Rune-Lord isn't quite as hard pressed to shut down a sorcerery spell unless all the manipulations are in Spell Strength. 

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For the OP: As a guy whose character is an Aeolian sorceror that uses Steal Breath quite liberally, I can only tell you how we played it and how I feel it.

- As an attack, it requires a POW vs POW roll. To reduce the effectiveness, you just need to have some targets with more POW than your sorceror.

- Except in ambushes, as an attack spell, Steal Breath sucks because it is painfully slow to cast, and even slower to have effect. Take opportunity of those times to target the sorceror. I am now quite accustomed to be on the receiving end of attacks when I start a casting that is more than 1 round long. In fact, everybody that cast a spell in combat whose casting is more than 1 round long should expect to be the target of all attacks, just because such a spell is usually very potent (and the caster is quite often a sitting duck while casting).

- Don't count too much on the concentration roll. My character rolled 16 for INT. I added 2 of the 3 extra points, plus a major in fire rune. With a total of 20, the concentration roll is 60%, sufficiently high to success at least 1 or 2 rounds.

- The social stigma is important. I have even renamed the spell 'Call for Orlanth Strength' when I use it only for MP gain and not as an attack, just to avoid annoying to much any witnesses. I almost never use it openly as an attack. Use those stigma to good effect, and your sorceror will become more careful.

- As a steal breath is rarely cast (as an attack) with a strength over 3 or 4, just because you need the intensity to build up the range (and is most often cast with a strength of 1), a simple countermagic 3 can block it. Countermagic is a very frequent spell. Use it, and don't forget it is an active spell you can target with dispel, and that you  can (must?) target the caster that has to concentrate. If an opponent see someone casting a big spell, stays concentrated and one of his buddies start to suffocate, the normal reaction is to launch an all out attacks on this helpless guy.

- The most important effect of Steal Breath is not as an attack, but as a way to start a combat, or even a spirit combat with more that 100 MP in stock and all your storage full. I always start my planned combats with lots of MP when I have the time to prepare. Victory is much easier, especially in the case of spirit combat, as MP are also your Hit Points.

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This is very similar to the "what do I do when the Humakti is killing everybody" question.  The answer is also very similar.

If the word gets out that a PC has powerful magic and is using that to topple mighty foes, then unfairly targeting the character IS the logical NPC response.   Obviously if he meets someone on the road and they fight for some reason the NPC(s) may not be aware of this powerful magic.  On the other hand, if the player is making enemies, or even just a name for themselves, then divinations around "who killed Lord Hakon Slash"? by his friends and kin are going to happen and the NPCs will react accordingly once the word is out that the PC is a serious butt kicker.   In Runequest there are a LOT of options other than just initiating a melee head first. 

Personally I find a javelin volley highly effective, as do my players (both giving and receiving).  On top of concentration rolls from getting wounded that might interrupt sorcery, the average damage for a javelin is quite high.  10 is the average with speed dart, so it should only take 4 competent Orlanthi to hit 3 times and score an average damage of 15 points AFTER heavy scale armor is accounted for.   If magical defenses are suspected, usually someone tasked with a strong dispel magic does the trick.  Ambush is also a means to get damage home

Most PC's can't take this much and will go down due to total hit point loss, even if three different locations were struck.  Critical or special hits are a strong possibility, and magnify the impact. Poison on the javelins also magnifies the lethality, but might break honor, or traditions, or just seem under handed, depending on who is attacking.  Hero's might be able to withstand that sort of impact, but anyone THAT awesome will demand an ever bigger response.   If you take a shot at the King, don't miss!  The NPC's who are aware of a PC that powerful will bring the house, and use whatever means that they have available.   

The main point is that the bigger the wave that the player is making, the bigger the hammer will be used on them by whomever is their enemy. 

 

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I guess the difficulty in Countering Sorcery with either Spirit or Rune Magic is one of the big reasons it is so fearsome. Countermagic calculates defense versus the whole spell Intensity, rather than just spell Strength. So, you would have to stack it pretty ridiculously high to get some consistent resistance to sorcerous attack magic. 

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11 minutes ago, coffeemancer said:

Also, why would Malkioni look down on tapping?

Depends on the tradition/denomination.  Some Malkioni consider Tapping immoral, or cosmically counterproductive.  The Brithini and Vadeli both use it though, it's not fundamentally counter to all forms of Malkionism.

Edited by dumuzid
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Almost all Malkioni traditions descended from Hrestolism (and that includes Rokarism) are dead set against random Tapping. The Brithini are not restrained in this regard. Read the description of Arolanit in the Guide to get an idea what reckless, unrestrained Tapping does to the world.

The Malkioni appear to have a command "don't destroy what you love", which is usually interpreted as "don't destroy Creation" among those who don't see Makan as the evil Demiurge. There are two sects in Ralios which are infamous for Tapping. One is the Galvosti School which allows the Tapping of non-Malkioni. You can imagine how popular these guys are. The other one is the Boristi college of magic which encourages Tapping Chaos.

Neither of these schools is particularly well regarded by their neighbors.

 

In my Glorantha, the Aeolians would never accept anybody using Steal Breath, the destruction of their holy element. Destroying the body of your chief god piecemeal for personal gain doesn't seem to be compatible with that worship which actually channels MP towards that deity.

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Telling how it is excessive verbis

 

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On 12/9/2020 at 10:47 PM, coffeemancer said:

Our party sorcerer makes short work of many decently powerful enemies with steal breath in any fair fight. Or unfair for that matter.

How can I counter it without unfairly targeting his character?

OK so first, I'm assuming he's using Tap against humans, so that going to mark him as an outlaw by pretty much all other Malkioni. That means no allies, no cult support, nothing. If he is a Lhankor Mhy cultist, his temple is going to get plagued by angry wind spirits and maybe even get a visit from the local Orlanth Rex. The kin of his victims may complain - even if they are nonhumans like dark trolls, that is the sort of "evil magic" that might get you outlawed from your tribe or city.

It is the sort of spell that identifies you to everyone as an Evil Sorcerer - the sort of bad guy that adventurers get hired to kill.

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12 hours ago, coffeemancer said:

You have all been very helpful.

 

Also, why would Malkioni look down on tapping?

Nearly all Malkioni accept the Law of Malkion as the keystone to the faith. Sadly, the ease with which this law can be misinterpreted has led to many different sects of Malkionism. The law is summarized below:

1.      The Invisible God is the God beyond the gods.

2.      Follow the righteous path of your caste. (This is usually defined as imposing different rules for each caste.)

3.      Love that which the Invisible God has created.

4.      Do not ruin that which you love. (This is usually defined as including a proscription against use of the Tap Technique.)

 

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