sorcery headache: how do you counter steal breath?

[PhilHibbs]

2 hours ago, Brootse said:

Is it viewed to be more evil than killing people with Disruption spells?

I think so. I'm not entirely sure why, but there's something disturbing and rather psychopathic about suffocating people. And I don't literally worship the air as a god.

On 12/11/2020 at 7:59 PM, lordabdul said:

It doesn't even need to be looked at in an RPG-murder-hoboy-way... it's right there in the spell list, and just looks like any other offensive spell.

You're right, that was a little provocative of me.

Edited December 12, 2020 by PhilHibbs

[Marc]

On 12/10/2020 at 2:32 PM, Kloster said:

- As an attack, it requires a POW vs POW roll. To reduce the effectiveness, you just need to have some targets with more POW than your sorceror.

I've always ruled that the Steal Breath spell targets a volume of AIR, not a person.  So, no need for a POW vs. POW roll.  On the other hand, that also means that anyone that happens to be standing in that volume of air just has to move out of it to avoid suffocation.

[Kloster]

19 minutes ago, Marc said:

I've always ruled that the Steal Breath spell targets a volume of AIR, not a person.  So, no need for a POW vs. POW roll.  On the other hand, that also means that anyone that happens to be standing in that volume of air just has to move out of it to avoid suffocation.

It can be read that way. In fact, we also play it that way. Either you target an area, and everybody inside is affected but can move out, or you target somebody, and you need POW vs POW, only this target is affected, and he can't escape by moving because he is the target.

[Joerg]

52 minutes ago, Marc said:

I've always ruled that the Steal Breath spell targets a volume of AIR, not a person.  So, no need for a POW vs. POW roll.  On the other hand, that also means that anyone that happens to be standing in that volume of air just has to move out of it to avoid suffocation.

If you target a person, you are destrying (part of) their breath. To an Orlanthi, that's part of his soul, the vehicle he rides to take a seat at Orlanth's feast at holy days. It's not just some gas.

[Kloster]

Hello Jeff,

First, thanks for your answers, the work you do and the time you spend with us.

12 hours ago, Jeff said:

In retrospect, I clearly gave people too many tools with sorcery in the core rules. With the next edition, I'll strip out every spell except those likely to be found at a Lhankor Mhy temple (Enhance INT, Identify Otherworld Entity, Geomancy, Logical Clarity, Logician, Reveal Rune, Solace of the Logical Mind, Speak to Mind, and Total Recall). As the rules say on page 389, the Lhankor Mhy cult teaches a LIMITED number of sorcery spells and not every temple possesses all of those spells.

I agree with you on that point. If you wanted us to only have sorcery users as LM cultists, the other options should not have been presented. Options that are presented are here to be used by the players. I am nonetheless happy that those options are present, and am also happy to use them. I am waiting impatiently to have the complement, whether in a lunar, western or sorcery dedicated book.

13 hours ago, Jeff said:

Also it seems it is clearly too much to assume that people can figure out that a sorcery spell that kills people through asphyxiation is going to be viewed as evil by most people.

For a human earthling, I fully agree with you, but I see it as evil as killing them with sling stones or axes.

For a Gloranthan, is it more evil to kill somebody by removing air around him (steal breath), making his flesh explode (disruption), removing his soul (sever spirit), transforming him in a pile of ashes (conflagration) or burning him with electricity (lightning)? If we accept one, why not accepting the others? In addition, I have seen Steal Breath (and it's parent RQ3's Smother) as a way not to kill somebody, as BRP has no proper non lethal combat rule: What I do is cast Smother/Steal Breath, and once it takes effect, propose to surrender, explaining that I will drop the spell (easy to do because the spell is active) once he has surrendered. I of course do not extend the courtesy to broos or scorpionmen (dragonsnails don't surrender and gorp don't breath), and always accept when somebody surrender. Try to offer to surrender to somebody that was the target of a big lightning or conflagration.

For the social stigmata, I have perceived Steal Breath as the heir of RQ3's Smother (one of the 2 RQ3 direct combat spells with Venom), that never had any special stigmata attached to it. It had of course those concerning Sorcery, but nothing more. I understand that contrary to Smother, Steal Breath uses Tap, but nothing in Tap technique's description p 384 says anything about being more evil than Command or Summon. In fact, even Tap Body (heir of RQ3's Tap SIZ) has nothing explained about that (although RQ3 was specifically describing Tap STAT as potentially evil, depending on the caster's culture).

[Lordabdul]

3 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

You're right, that was a little provocative of me.

No no that's fine. It does take a certain, ahem, "type" of player to treat the rulebook as a shopping list for their character, but I'm mostly coming from a GMing point of view, where I'm the one who would have to moderate such players by saying "watch out, this has societal baggage".

My point was mostly that, even though that seems to upset Jeff, I don't see much of a difference between asphyxiating people, burning them, or chopping them in bits (they're all equally bad). And I say that as someone who is relatively new to this and is still learning a ton about Glorantha. The whole "tapping is evil" and "killing air is evil" makes sense within the mythological framework of the setting, but I think many people around here have internalized it so well that they forget that it's not necessarily obvious to newcomers. If I didn't have the Guide books, I would treat Steal Breath the same way I treat a sword: the consequences you face only depend on who you use it against. I don't warn players when their characters buy a sword. I just warn them when they're about to strike somebody they shouldn't, or when they're "going too far" with it.

50 minutes ago, Kloster said:

It can be read that way. In fact, we also play it that way. Either you target an area, and everybody inside is affected but can move out, or you target somebody, and you need POW vs POW, only this target is affected, and he can't escape by moving because he is the target.

I personally wouldn't allow targeting a specific person, but that's a fine ruling if necessary.

Edited December 12, 2020 by lordabdul

[PhilHibbs]

Which of these is more scary: Darth Vader force-choking someone, and Darth Vader shooting someone? You really don't see a difference between those two? I mean I get the logical "they're both dead, so no difference" side of it, but I imagine Spock saying that to Bones, who then has a fit about Vulcans and their lack of emotion. There's a definite emotional side to someone choking to death gasping for air.

Edited December 12, 2020 by PhilHibbs

[Kloster]

26 minutes ago, lordabdul said:

I personally wouldn't allow targeting a specific person, but that's a fine ruling if necessary.

RQG p400: If cast on a person, the person suffers asphyxiation after the first round (see Drowning and Asphyxiation, page 156).

8 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

Which of these is more scary: Darth Vader force-choking someone, and Darth Vader shooting someone? You really don't see a difference between those two? I mean I get the logical "they're both dead, so no difference" side of it, but I imagine Spock saying that to Bones, who then has a fit about Vulcans and their lack of emotion. There's a definite emotional side to someone choking to death gasping for air.

This is why I didn't spoke of striking (with a sword) but of burning them alive, making their flesh explode and other nice things.

[Kloster]

11 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

Which of these is more scary: Darth Vader force-choking someone, and Darth Vader shooting someone? You really don't see a difference between those two? I mean I get the logical "they're both dead, so no difference" side of it, but I imagine Spock saying that to Bones, who then has a fit about Vulcans and their lack of emotion. There's a definite emotional side to someone choking to death gasping for air.

Of course, as a human, I fully agree with you.

[Lordabdul]

4 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

Which of these is more scary: Darth Vader force-choking someone, and Darth Vader shooting someone?

Depends. Asphyxiation to death sounds worse, but bleeding to death from a bullet doesn’t sound good either. I couldn't rate one higher than the other. I would argue that chopping someone’s arm off or burning them is worse than choking them assuming neither leads to death. Does that mean someone owning an axe or knowing Fire spells is going to get a worse reaction than someone knowing Steal Breath?

 

3 hours ago, Kloster said:

If cast on a person

I stand corrected, thanks.

Edited December 13, 2020 by lordabdul

[Dissolv]

OP never said that his PC sorcerer was Orlanthi, did he?  Maybe he is a Lunar, in which case, why would he care what the hillbilly barbarians think of his College of Magic trained powers?

[Shiningbrow]

18 hours ago, Jeff said:

In retrospect, I clearly gave people too many tools with sorcery in the core rules. With the next edition, I'll strip out every spell except those likely to be found at a Lhankor Mhy temple (Enhance INT, Identify Otherworld Entity, Geomancy, Logical Clarity, Logician, Reveal Rune, Solace of the Logical Mind, Speak to Mind, and Total Recall). As the rules say on page 389, the Lhankor Mhy cult teaches a LIMITED number of sorcery spells and not every temple possesses all of those spells. 

Also it seems it is clearly too much to assume that people can figure out that a sorcery spell that kills people through asphyxiation is going to be viewed as evil by most people.

I don't know if you're being facetious or not, but I'll presume you're not.

I think stripping out all but the LM spells would be a very bad idea. As we've seen from these forums, Sorcery is a very popular concept, and many people want much much more of it. If you remove every spell except the LM spells, you may as well remove any other mention of sorcery in the book. And I think that goes against the heart and soul of Glorantha and gaming in general - player (and GM) fiat, and world-building.

Surely the quickest and easiest fix would be to insert the phrase "This spell is considered as evil as Tapping to Orlanthi". I'm sure there are many other sorcerous cults/groups that won't have problems with the spell. Alternatively - remove the Tap Technique! Or, at the very least, any spell using it. After all, it's supposed to be viewed as evil anyway, and there's only 2 spells in the MRB that use it. If Tapping is seen as evil, then almost no-one would have access to it ... Problem solved!

Of course, adjusting the spell might be even better! 2MP to get a whole bunch back is pretty huge, even without the asphyxiation effect. That's just like the cream on top of a really awesome Pavlova!

 

[Kloster]

7 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

Surely the quickest and easiest fix would be to insert the phrase "This spell is considered as evil as Tapping to Orlanthi".

This is exactly what I am requesting.

11 hours ago, lordabdul said:

Depends. Asphyxiation to death sounds worse, but bleeding to death from a bullet doesn’t sound good either. I couldn't rate one higher than the other. I would argue that chopping someone’s arm off or burning them is worse than choking them assuming neither leads to death. Does that mean someone owning an axe or knowing Fire spells is going to get a worse reaction than someone knowing Steal Breath?

Exactly.

[soltakss]

21 hours ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

If you use that logic then Air can be used to augment most anything.

My arrow flies through the air.

My singing is heard through the air.

I jump through the air.

As a GM, I am fine with that.

Why should I put things in place to restrict Adventurers?

18 hours ago, Hteph said:

The danger with players is that they will use everything that is not explicitly restricted.

Again, I don't see a problem with that.

 

[Kloster]

14 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

Which of these is more scary: Darth Vader force-choking someone, and Darth Vader shooting someone?

 

14 hours ago, lordabdul said:

Depends. Asphyxiation to death sounds worse, but bleeding to death from a bullet doesn’t sound good either. I couldn't rate one higher than the other. I would argue that chopping someone’s arm off or burning them is worse than choking them assuming neither leads to death. Does that mean someone owning an axe or knowing Fire spells is going to get a worse reaction than someone knowing Steal Breath?

Frankly, while working on a highway some 30 years ago, I saw a car burning with 2 persons inside that were unable to exit. I still can't forget the picture. I also saw more recently 2 colleagues be on the receiving part of an electrical arc the equivalent of a Lightning 1 spell with slightly above average damage (roughly 4 or 5 points of damage). One lost his left hand (completely burned) and the usage of the arm, the other lost his nose, half of his lower jaw and about half of his face. I have personally be the victim of an asphyxiation accident, while in the army (a gas mask training that went wrong and the instructor didn't notice immediately because of the heavy smoke). I am unable to say one is worse than the other and, as a person, I find all of this fate horrendous to inflict to anybody else. So, why accept Conflagration, Summon Fire elemental or Lightning, or even disruption (whose description includes making the flesh of the target explode) but consider Steal Breath evil? If it is because Sorcery is considered evil by some people, it should be written in the description of Sorcery, but in this case, all Sorcery damaging spells should be considered equal, and not concern people that have different beliefs (Lunars forex). If it is because Tap technique is considered evil, it has to be written in the technique's description, with the same caveat as above. If it is because this spell specifically destroys Air (as Joerg remarked earlier), this has to be noted in the spell description, as Shiningbrow proposed rightly.

[Kloster]

14 hours ago, Dissolv said:

OP never said that his PC sorcerer was Orlanthi, did he?  Maybe he is a Lunar, in which case, why would he care what the hillbilly barbarians think of his College of Magic trained powers?

Completely true. This is why most of the answers propose only rules answer, and not cultural ones. The rules are absolute, as the culture is always relative. Not only a Lunar heartland Sorceror wouldn't care about the barbarian beliefs, but he can even more be happy of weakening Orlanth by destroying Air.

[French Desperate WindChild]

1 hour ago, Kloster said:

So, why accept Conflagration, Summon Fire elemental or Lightning, or even disruption (whose description includes making the flesh of the target explode) but consider Steal Breath evil?

good question, same with weapons (why a tool killing people can be considered as good by nature ?)

1 hour ago, Kloster said:

 If it is because Sorcery is considered evil by some people, it should be written in the description of Sorcery, but in this case, all Sorcery damaging spells should be considered equal, and not concern people that have different beliefs (Lunars forex). If it is because Tap technique is considered evil

honestly I cannot say if I know that sorcery is evil in dragon pass because I read it in RQG rules or in forum (big point, remember that a lot of people / gm  are not in this forum or other) but in all case I learnt here, in this forum that it is "tolerated" when your are grey sage. I still don't understand what his a canonical aeloian too (cast sytem, who can cast rune spell, who can cast sorcery, which god for which cast etc...)

What is sure I know from previous rules versions that "Tap" spells are evil (aka more or less chaotic) about everywhere (so more or less chaotic seems to me not a problem for some lunar magic school) but without this forum I didn't understand that steal breath is a "tap" spell...

 

1 hour ago, Kloster said:

 If it is because Sorcery is considered evil by some people, it should be written in the description of Sorcery, but in this case, all Sorcery damaging spells should be considered equal, and not concern people that have different beliefs (Lunars forex). If it is because Tap technique is considered evil

Edited December 13, 2020 by French Desperate WindChild

[Kloster]

45 minutes ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

What is sure I know from previous rules versions that "Tap" spells are evil (aka more or less chaotic) about everywhere (so more or less chaotic seems to me not a problem for some lunar magic school) but without this forum I didn't understand that steal breath is a "tap" spell...

Before RQG, Tap spell were targeting stats. You were tapping INT, SIZ (current Tap Body), ..., but not matter or element. They were described as bad/evil or even chaotic in RQ books. Note that the only place I have seen them used in an official Chaosium product is in Griffin Mountain, which is non Gloranthan, and where opponents were heavily using them.

Steal breath is using the Tap technique, which is an entirely different matter (because it is a new rule) and is not described as bad/evil/chaotic. Neither is the technique.

[Brootse]

2 hours ago, Kloster said:

 

Frankly, while working on a highway some 30 years ago, I saw a car burning with 2 persons inside that were unable to exit. I still can't forget the picture. I also saw more recently 2 colleagues be on the receiving part of an electrical arc the equivalent of a Lightning 1 spell with slightly above average damage (roughly 4 or 5 points of damage). One lost his left hand (completely burned) and the usage of the arm, the other lost his nose, half of his lower jaw and about half of his face. I have personally be the victim of an asphyxiation accident, while in the army (a gas mask training that went wrong and the instructor didn't notice immediately because of the heavy smoke). I am unable to say one is worse than the other and, as a person, I find all of this fate horrendous to inflict to anybody else. So, why accept Conflagration, Summon Fire elemental or Lightning, or even disruption (whose description includes making the flesh of the target explode) but consider Steal Breath evil? If it is because Sorcery is considered evil by some people, it should be written in the description of Sorcery, but in this case, all Sorcery damaging spells should be considered equal, and not concern people that have different beliefs (Lunars forex). If it is because Tap technique is considered evil, it has to be written in the technique's description, with the same caveat as above. If it is because this spell specifically destroys Air (as Joerg remarked earlier), this has to be noted in the spell description, as Shiningbrow proposed rightly.

If you kill someone in a grisly fashion using Orlanth's magic it's pure and noble, but if you kill someone in a grisly fashion using sorcery it's evil.

[Brootse]

22 minutes ago, Kloster said:

Before RQG, Tap spell were targeting stats. You were tapping INT, SIZ (current Tap Body), ..., but not matter or element. They were described as bad/evil or even chaotic in RQ books. Note that the only place I have seen them used in an official Chaosium product is in Griffin Mountain, which is non Gloranthan, and where opponents were heavily using them.

Steal breath is using the Tap technique, which is an entirely different matter (because it is a new rule) and is not described as bad/evil/chaotic. Neither is the technique.

Yeah.

[Joerg]

It should be possible to create a "Smother Humanoid" spell using Separate Air Man. Apart from the increased basic cost of this spell, the sorcerer doesn't benefit from any MP gain either. The spell needs to overcome the target's POW, which makes the increased spell cost pretty much a theoretical exercise. This spell in a more specialized version might double the MP for purposes of overcoming the target POW.

If the spell is to work on other creatures as well, you'd need a more generalized target rune. Or possibly a four rune spell "Smother Breathing Creature" which requires both Man and Beast as target runes, even of only one kind is targeted. Elves, runners and dryads would be within target parameters, other plant entities wouldn't.

"Cleanse Stench" or "Purge Miasma" could be specialized forms of "Steal Breath", and might go unnoticed as evil Tapping magic.

17 hours ago, lordabdul said:

The whole "tapping is evil" and "killing air is evil" makes sense within the mythological framework of the setting, but I think many people around here have internalized it so well that they forget that it's not necessarily obvious to newcomers.

HQGlorantha p.174 has a short boxed text on Tapping which clarifies that issue. That box could easily be fitted into the Whitespace at the end of the sorcery, and possibly a short pointer in "Steal Breath" and "Tap Body" and pulling that box up into the neighborhood of these two spells using the Tap technique would have helped.

[Kloster]

2 hours ago, Joerg said:

HQGlorantha p.174 has a short boxed text on Tapping which clarifies that issue. That box could easily be fitted into the Whitespace at the end of the sorcery, and possibly a short pointer in "Steal Breath" and "Tap Body" and pulling that box up into the neighborhood of these two spells using the Tap technique would have helped.

I don't have HQ Glorantha, but I can only say yes: those warning/explanations are needed and would help. Anybody new to RQ or (like myself) that has completely skipped the HW/HQ era has none of those informations.

[Kloster]

2 hours ago, Brootse said:

If you kill someone in a grisly fashion using Orlanth's magic it's pure and noble, but if you kill someone in a grisly fashion using sorcery it's evil.

That means going back to a societal viewpoint. A lunar or Malkioni wouldn't care angering those pesky barbarians.

[Lordabdul]

2 hours ago, Joerg said:

It should be possible to create a "Smother Humanoid" spell using Separate Air Man.

Yeah exactly. Good stuff!  This is the type of creative spell creation that I love about the new Sorcery rules (which is also why I was fascinated about Ars Magica back in the day, even if I never managed to convince anyone to play it).

A "Separate Water Man" spell would be the equivalent of the classic "Shriveling" spell in Call of Cthulhu. It avoids using the "evil" Tap technique using your cool loophole, and would result in a shriveled corpse lying in a pool of water. Sounds nasty!

 

[DreadDomain]

On 12/12/2020 at 7:04 PM, Jeff said:

In retrospect, I clearly gave people too many tools with sorcery in the core rules.

Why do you say that? Sorcery doesn't seem to be any more problematic than any other parts of the rules. People have questions, like this one, and they get answered. Rulewise, Steal Breath doesn't seem problematic to me.

On 12/12/2020 at 7:04 PM, Jeff said:

With the next edition,

The next edition?

On 12/12/2020 at 7:04 PM, Jeff said:

I'll strip out every spell except those likely to be found at a Lhankor Mhy temple (Enhance INT, Identify Otherworld Entity, Geomancy, Logical Clarity, Logician, Reveal Rune, Solace of the Logical Mind, Speak to Mind, and Total Recall). As the rules say on page 389, the Lhankor Mhy cult teaches a LIMITED number of sorcery spells and not every temple possesses all of those spells. 

If the sorcery rules are only meant to support Lankhor Mhy characters, that is not unreasonable at all (assuming the rules would come out later in an appropriate supplements). Having said that, having them in the core book give people the freedom to explore and use them in their games even if it is by extrapolating from the example traditions on page 389.

On 12/12/2020 at 7:04 PM, Jeff said:

Also it seems it is clearly too much to assume that people can figure out that a sorcery spell that kills people through asphyxiation is going to be viewed as evil by most people.

Actually, without any more prompt, it is unreasonable to assume that people will see it as more evil compared to any other forms of killing. Coming from previous editions of RQ, I know tapping is seen as evil and I was quite surprised that it was not mentionned in the sorcery chapter. A sentence on it under the tap technique on page 384 or a text box discussion "Evil Sorcery" would have gone a long way.