sorcery headache: how do you counter steal breath?

[Kloster]

It is not possible to put both 'like' and 'thanks', so I put like and I write 'Thanks'.

[Mugen]

On 12/12/2020 at 10:38 PM, Marc said:

I've always ruled that the Steal Breath spell targets a volume of AIR, not a person.  So, no need for a POW vs. POW roll.  On the other hand, that also means that anyone that happens to be standing in that volume of air just has to move out of it to avoid suffocation.

I know Glorantha doesn't obey real world physics, but still...

Shouln't the Air surrounding the area where Air was destroyed move towards it to fill the void?

I mean, Air is not Iron or Stone, It's a moving element. If Water was suppressed instead of Air, would you consider it would stand outside the area?

Unless it's supposed Steal Breath doesn't only suppress Air, but also also creates a barrier that blocks it for the duration of the spell?

[PhilHibbs]

22 minutes ago, Mugen said:

I mean, Air is not Iron or Stone, It's a moving element. If Water was suppressed instead of Air, would you consider it would stand outside the area?

Sure, why not? Yes, while the spell is active, air flows in and is absorbed and that's where the ongoing MP gain comes from. Water would also flow in and be absorbed, so there would be some cool CGI going on at the edges. Once the spell is no longer active (the caster stops concentrating) and becomes passive maintaining any MPs over the sorcerer's POW, the air rushes in and so would the water in a similar spell.

[Mugen]

18 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

Sure, why not? Yes, while the spell is active, air flows in and is absorbed and that's where the ongoing MP gain comes from. Water would also flow in and be absorbed, so there would be some cool CGI going on at the edges. Once the spell is no longer active (the caster stops concentrating) and becomes passive maintaining any MPs over the sorcerer's POW, the air rushes in and so would the water in a similar spell.

So, it means Air outside the area would also be destroyed ? That's really a nightmarish spell...

Plus, it brings back memories from the time when I studied Fluid Dynamics, in the previous millenium...

Edited December 15, 2020 by Mugen

[Brootse]

28 minutes ago, Mugen said:

So, it means Air outside the area would also be destroyed ? That's really a nightmarish spell...

Plus, it brings back memories from the time when I studied Fluid Dynamics, in the previous millenium...

That's even more nightmarish.

[PhilHibbs]

46 minutes ago, Mugen said:

So, it means Air outside the area would also be destroyed ? That's really a nightmarish spell...

Why? The spell destroys air in an area. Air moves. There's no shortage of it. Where's the nightmare? Sure, if you crank the spell up to billions of points of strength and duration then you could empty the entire Middle Air, that's a nightmare, but you could say the same about any spell will billions of points in it.

[PhilHibbs]

And bear in mind that I'm just typing as I think, none of this is thought through and balanced.

I actually prefer the idea that the dead air hangs around and is at best unpleasant to breathe, at worst you have to move out of it in order to breathe, until the breeze moves it around and breaks it up and mixes fresh air into it. A similar spell for water might kill the water, leaving it grey and stuffy with no buoyancy. It would mix and spread out as well, and while the spell is active, fresh water washed into it would be drained.

Edited December 15, 2020 by PhilHibbs

[Mugen]

1 minute ago, PhilHibbs said:

Why? The spell destroys air in an area. Air moves. There's no shortage of it. Where's the nightmare? Sure, if you crank the spell up to billions of points of strength and duration then you could empty the entire Middle Air, that's a nightmare, but you could say the same about any spell will billions of points in it.

Well, new Air does not instantly replaces the destroyed Air, it has to move towards the location where Air was destroyed. Around the spell's area, you'd have more or less violent winds around the spell, and also less Air to breath.

[PhilHibbs]

46 minutes ago, Mugen said:

Well, new Air does not instantly replaces the destroyed Air, it has to move towards the location where Air was destroyed. Around the spell's area, you'd have more or less violent winds around the spell, and also less Air to breath.

Any of these flavour interpretations are all equally possible given the spell description, as long as they don't have significant game-mechanical consequences, and I don't think that's a bad thing. YGWV.

[French Desperate WindChild]

3 hours ago, Mugen said:

I know Glorantha doesn't obey real world physics, but still...

Shouln't the Air surrounding the area where Air was destroyed move towards it to fill the void?

I mean, Air is not Iron or Stone, It's a moving element. If Water was suppressed instead of Air, would you consider it would stand outside the area?

Unless it's supposed Steal Breath doesn't only suppress Air, but also also creates a barrier that blocks it for the duration of the spell?

Or in another perspective, air is made of air spirits. spirits in the spell area are destroyed/expulsed/compressed / etc

Spirits outside the spell area would like to conquer the area but because the spell they can't (why not a barrier ? or maybe they understand they are not ... welcomed) so have to wait. They can complain to their bigger brothers / gods who could take it into account after a certain time (and for a large part, the spells will end before they act), then greater entities complain to air shamans, air cults, etc... to identify the issue

 

 

[Mugen]

33 minutes ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

Or in another perspective, air is made of air spirits. spirits in the spell area are destroyed/expulsed/compressed / etc

Spirits outside the spell area would like to conquer the area but because the spell they can't (why not a barrier ? or maybe they understand they are not ... welcomed) so have to wait. They can complain to their bigger brothers / gods who could take it into account after a certain time (and for a large part, the spells will end before they act), then greater entities complain to air shamans, air cults, etc... to identify the issue

But why wouldn't spells that defend you against spirits have the same effect (except for the initial destruction, of course) ?

[French Desperate WindChild]

51 minutes ago, Mugen said:

But why wouldn't spells that defend you against spirits have the same effect (except for the initial destruction, of course) ?

because that is not the same effect 😛

the goal of steal breath is to transform air into magic, (by the way from where come this magic ? from the air spirit, that makes sense with the "tap" air i didn't see previously)

You can also create a "tap earth" spell , a "tap shadow" spell, etc... and their effect are different than "protect from earth spirit"

 

what I mean about this spirit view :

protect against spirit spells are spells used against "human-size" spirits when "tap elemental" spells used against "ant-size" spirits :  irl : don't try to kill a tiger with your foot, but it is easy to kill an ant, and for the same reason, don't try to kill an ant with a gun

 

but this point is not canonical, it is just my [never tapped] spirit peregrination

[PhilHibbs]

2 hours ago, Mugen said:

But why wouldn't spells that defend you against spirits have the same effect (except for the initial destruction, of course) ?

What effect?

[Hteph]

5 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

And bear in mind that I'm just typing as I think, none of this is thought through and balanced.

I actually prefer the idea that the dead air hangs around and is at best unpleasant to breathe, at worst you have to move out of it in order to breathe, until the breeze moves it around and breaks it up and mixes fresh air into it. A similar spell for water might kill the water, leaving it grey and stuffy with no buoyancy. It would mix and spread out as well, and while the spell is active, fresh water washed into it would be drained.

I think that makes a much better story and has the advantage that it highlights the difference between our “scientific” powered world and the “mythic” powered Gloranthan.

In general I like answers that is as un-science as possible, because it breaks the all-to-common way to extrapolate like “if a spell do THIS, then LoGICaLLy it be like this” among a certain sub-set of gamers. Glorantha is logical, but not your mundane world logical!

When players let loose of their everyday fluid mechanics and newtonian movements and starts to talk about interaction with the water spirits and appease the local river goddess before they cross the river, then you have achieved immersion!

So if I would probably interpret an attack with Steal Breath that it has removed the life giving movement-air’s [choose one: spirit, essence, divine spark] and left the lungs full with turgid “dead” air (and in an volume around them). The volume is more or less immobile but is constantly under attack from the “living” air around it. Move away and some heavy coughing should solve the problem, but there is a risk to pass out before that if the spell is maintained.

Destroy Earth would perhaps be like flimsy ash powder, water like thick oil or jello etc. I try to figure out what core values elements like Darkness and Sky would be and get destroyed, but I can’t come up with something right now.

[Mugen]

9 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

What effect?

Well, prefenting Air spirits from entering the area, as was proposed as an explanation in the post I quote.

[PhilHibbs]

16 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

What effect?

7 hours ago, Mugen said:

Well, prefenting Air spirits from entering the area, as was proposed as an explanation in the post I quote.

Were you trying to say that any spell that protects you from spirits would suffocate you?

[Mugen]

57 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

Were you trying to say that any spell that protects you from spirits would suffocate you?

In fact, I was answering to this part of a post, which was an attempt at explaining why Air would be kept oustide of Steal Breath :

Quote

Spirits outside the spell area would like to conquer the area but because the spell they can't (why not a barrier ? or maybe they understand they are not ... welcomed) so have to wait. They can complain to their bigger brothers / gods who could take it into account after a certain time (and for a large part, the spells will end before they act), then greater entities complain to air shamans, air cults, etc... to identify the issue

Basically, my understanding of this text was that it supposed Steal Breath acted like a spiritual barrier specifically aimed at Air Spirits, on top of the initial destruction.

So, yes, my logical conclusion was that more generic Spiritual barriers should also prevent Air Spirits from entering.

Edited December 16, 2020 by Mugen

[PhilHibbs]

19 minutes ago, Mugen said:

So, yes, my logical conclusion was that more generic Spiritual barriers should also prevent Air Spirits from entering.

It's a massive stretch to take one person's idle musings about how air spirits react to Steal Breath, and extrapolate that to "all spirit protection magics cause suffocation".

A can cause B, without B necessarily also causing A.

[Mugen]

2 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

It's a massive stretch to take one person's idle musings about how air spirits react to Steal Breath, and extrapolate that to "all spirit protection magics cause suffocation".

A can cause B, without B necessarily also causing A.

And I never said that.

[PhilHibbs]

32 minutes ago, Mugen said:

And I never said that.

Ok I apologize. I'm just trying to figure out what it is you did say.

Edited December 16, 2020 by PhilHibbs

[icebrand]

An appropriate ammount of blunt force trauma works wonders as a hard counter to sorcery. 

Have 3 trollkin slinging stones at them, or simply use your maul (downward strike or a sweep both do it). 

In a pinch sever spirit is good too, but it kind of ruins the meat.

Source: Death Lord

[dumuzid]

2 hours ago, icebrand said:

Have 3 trollkin slinging stones at them

Why stop at three?  In one important battle I had a battery of dozens of them queued up to rain lead bolgs on an important enemy sorcerer.  Turned out to be very important, only their sling harassment kept the sorcerer distracted long enough for my character's Yelornan sister-in-law to put a Firearrow into him and decisively fizzle the sorcerous shaping.  He was casting a souped-up Moonburn too, according to my GM after the fact; if it had gone off, it would've changed the whole tempo of the battle.

[Akhôrahil]

On 12/13/2020 at 12:11 AM, PhilHibbs said:

Which of these is more scary: Darth Vader force-choking someone, and Darth Vader shooting someone? 

The Emperor electrocuting you seems worse than either, yet no-one claims that frying an enemy with Lightning is particularly evil.

[Lloyd Dupont]

It's not a story the Jedi like to tell.... 😛 

 

[Rodney Dangerduck]

On 12/16/2020 at 5:54 AM, dumuzid said:

Why stop at three?  In one important battle I had a battery of dozens of them queued up to rain lead bolgs on an important enemy sorcerer. 

Sure, the PC sorcerer won't feel "picked on" when that happens.  Great solution.  Not.