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sorcery headache: how do you counter steal breath?


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4 hours ago, AkhĂ´rahil said:

The Emperor electrocuting you seems worse than either, yet no-one claims that frying an enemy with Lightning is particularly evil.

This is one of the point I was raising: Some spells have social stigmata, and some not. It should be written in the spell or technique description, as people, depending on their homeland or religion, or ..., will not all have the same restrictions. Without this information, all those spells have to be equally considered evil (by modern standard) or acceptable (by older time standards).

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9 minutes ago, Kloster said:

This is one of the point I was raising: Some spells have social stigmata, and some not. It should be written in the spell or technique description, as people, depending on their homeland or religion, or ..., will not all have the same restrictions. Without this information, all those spells have to be equally considered evil (by modern standard) or acceptable (by older time standards).

I agree with you

but there are two issues :

- that means more material, so more time for chaosium (stop adding work before god and goddess please !) and bigger prices for customers

- that means more complexity : darkness spell in sundome, easy, moon spell in lunar empire, easy what about darkness spell in sartar ? wait it depends on the tradition of this clan and this one. what about spirit tradition in the west ? for rokari, this salfester sect, not this one, the other behind, etc..

there are too many cultural taboos to all identify it in the books

so I play like this :

people (gloranthan people) who used to cast a spell (the cult spells more or less) accept this spell (and those doing about the same) as good spell (but that doesn't mean using this spell is always considered as a good spell)

people who fear / hate the people using this exotic spell consider this spell (and the "affiliate") as an evil spell

people who don't know the spell at all will react depending the situation:

  • the caster is bad with them, this magic is evil.
  • the caster is good with them, let's try this new magic. (but "them" is not all the country, maybe the local potentat will consider it as "bad for him" to see his farmers helped bu this strangers)
  • the caster is neutral with them, well it depends the culture : lunar seems to be tolerant when sartartite (in %) will consider you as a bad sorcerer (what I don't know is of course bad things)

 

so in this view, when good orlanthi see someone flying,they consider him as an holy man (until they discover he is sorcerer, but it is not clear that this spell is a sorcery spell, isn't it ? or until they believe he is sorcerer, after all he can be an holy man for Orlanth but killed because the guys went wrong for any reason, not only lie spell for sure)

 

the main issue here is I ( I,the gm) may be wrong to any interpretation. So I try to focus my play on the background I know a little bit.

and that's why I wish chaosium to focus its energy on this place deeper and deeper (and as Nochet is in the background, that means western cultures should be full described too, etc... but not the places for example) and dislike (but it is personal you can wish the opposite) to see some potential announcement with kralorela, vormain, pamaltela or the deeper see.

Not because they are not interesting places, but because that is a very large scope to cover with high level of quality and unfortunately, chaosium didn't prove me they are able to produce 50 000 pages per year (and they don't have to, they do their business, it is not a claim)

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30 minutes ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

- that means more material, so more time for chaosium (stop adding work before god and goddess please !) and bigger prices for customers

- that means more complexity : darkness spell in sundome, easy, moon spell in lunar empire, easy what about darkness spell in sartar ? wait it depends on the tradition of this clan and this one. what about spirit tradition in the west ? for rokari, this salfester sect, not this one, the other behind, etc..

Agreed. We could still have broad strokes, like 'Tap technique is restricted to Borists and Brithinis'. Joerg copied us a warning that was in HQ, that would have been useful and sufficient in that case.

32 minutes ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

people (gloranthan people) who used to cast a spell (the cult spells more or less) accept this spell (and those doing about the same) as good spell (but that doesn't mean using this spell is always considered as a good spell)

people who fear / hate the people using this exotic spell consider this spell (and the "affiliate") as an evil spell

people who don't know the spell at all will react depending the situation:

  • the caster is bad with them, this magic is evil.
  • the caster is good with them, let's try this new magic. (but "them" is not all the country, maybe the local potentat will consider it as "bad for him" to see his farmers helped bu this strangers)
  • the caster is neutral with them, well it depends the culture : lunar seems to be tolerant when sartartite (in %) will consider you as a bad sorcerer (what I don't know is of course bad things)

Good proposal.

34 minutes ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

the main issue here is I ( I,the gm) may be wrong to any interpretation.

Right. This is why at least basic info is needed. For the rest, Everybody's Glorantha Must Vary.

36 minutes ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

Not because they are not interesting places, but because that is a very large scope to cover with high level of quality and unfortunately, chaosium didn't prove me they are able to produce 50 000 pages per year (and they don't have to, they do their business, it is not a claim)

Completely agree here.

 

P.S. I didn't put a like to your post because I am out of stock, but: 'Like'

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On 12/18/2020 at 1:59 AM, Rodney Dangerduck said:

Sure, the PC sorcerer won't feel "picked on" when that happens.  Great solution.  Not.

Wait, you *don't* pick on the PCs?!?

He would feel what? Just kill them so they learn the lesson. You shouldn't hold back against PC, unless you are one of those people that fudges rolls etc.

I mean, if there are trollkin slingers with a troll master, surely the troll trained them to shoot at a called target. Why do you make your NPC soft-suicide?

Edited by icebrand

"It seems I'm destined not to move ahead in time faster than my usual rate of one second per second"

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51 minutes ago, icebrand said:

Wait, you *don't* pick on the PCs?!?

I don't pick on a particular PC.

If the Dark Troll leader picks a more or less random PC, and says "shoot at 2nd hooman from the left", and 10 of the 12 trollkin understand and target that PC, that's fine.

If the Dark Troll always says "shoot at Joe's Sorcerer", that's bad GMing.  Both that player, who feels picked on, and the other PCs, who are belittled. "What am I, chopped liver?  I'm not worth of their attention?"

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59 minutes ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

I don't pick on a particular PC.

If the Dark Troll leader picks a more or less random PC, and says "shoot at 2nd hooman from the left", and 10 of the 12 trollkin understand and target that PC, that's fine.

If the Dark Troll always says "shoot at Joe's Sorcerer", that's bad GMing.  Both that player, who feels picked on, and the other PCs, who are belittled. "What am I, chopped liver?  I'm not worth of their attention?"

The "counter" to sorcery is disrupting the caster, since spells take 2+ round.

If you let the sorcerer cast, it's already over; you had 2 rounds to make them fail concentration or disabling them.

Looking for a "counter" at this stage is like looking to a counter for the weapon that just hit you. You just trust your armor/pow keeps you alive and if not maybe your friends can take you to a temple to get resurrected.

If you let the enemy spellcaster free, you give them a pass to unleash all their potential. It's the same why you shoot at archers, not melee fighters.

Unengaged characters should naturally go for the spellcaster / ranged attacker (but there they have the chance to join a melee where the archer can't reliably hit them. Unless they are animals or dumb creatures of course.

Edited by icebrand
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"It seems I'm destined not to move ahead in time faster than my usual rate of one second per second"

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On 12/22/2020 at 1:54 PM, Rodney Dangerduck said:

If the Dark Troll always says "shoot at Joe's Sorcerer", that's bad GMing.  Both that player, who feels picked on, and the other PCs, who are belittled. "What am I, chopped liver?  I'm not worth of their attention?"

To add to icebrand's thoughtful comments on this: in the games I've played and am running, tactics like these aren't a matter of picking on someone, they're what happens when the game really starts to get tactically interesting.  Like icebrand says, the answer to big extemporaneous sorcery is generally to stop it from going off.  Once it goes off, the Strength of any sorcerous spell big enough to require several turns of casting is going to blast through most magic defenses, if the casting has happened successfully you've already failed to counter it.  In the example that helped start this tangent, when my player character was the dark troll directing trollkin and other assets against a hostile sorcerer, if we'd not disrupted them the expected result was a casting of Moonburn that would've killed dozens of spear-trollkin and Grazelander horse archers, decisively swinging one element of a larger battle.

When sorcery and comparably flashy, decisive magic (Sword/Axe Trance, for instance) are involved in a battle or skirmish, it's only logical and sensible for the opposition to try everything they can to negate them--and the question becomes, from the point of view of the sorcerer, how to foil those attempts at negating them.  The sorcerer my trollkin harassed was a Thanatari, and made himself more difficult to disrupt by casting his Chaotic sorcery in full armor--all those sling stones pinged away, it was only a Yelornan firearrow that got through sufficiently to disrupt the casting.  Other sorcerers might negate mundane attempts at disrupting them by only engaging in combat situations while discorporated, or with bodyguards (warriors and/or summoned beings) in close support, or by casting their magic through bound or allied spirits rater than appearing personally in the field, etc.  A wizard who can be foiled by a bunch of trollkin slingers alone needs to re-evaluate how they're practicing their magic, and up their game.

The challenge to the sorcerer and their companions is to keep them casting despite the best tricks the enemy can think of to shake them up.  It's when you go a step further though, and players or their opposition start heroquesting to disrupt each other's magic in advance, that things really start to get interesting.  Then you're getting into fifth dimensional combat, and RuneQuest is the only RPG that delivers it quite this way.

Edited by dumuzid
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13 minutes ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

Seriously, many of the players would be keeping back casting Protection, Bladesharp, Shield, Sword Trance, etc...  For a while, they are all casters.

Well, I believe the phenomenon being discussed was sorcerers taking multiple rounds to power up major spells, which I would expect to look and sound rather different from a Humakti calling on Sword Trance in the span of a single strike rank, etc.  Unlike theistic and spirit magic big, flashy uses of sorcery actually take enough time to cast to give enemies the chance to disrupt them mid-course.

All that magic does take time though, especially if anyone fails or fumbles their casting rolls and has to re-attempt things.  It's a major tactical issue if one side enters the fray with their Weapon Trances, Shield spells, spirit magic and so on already active, and the other enters the fight un-enhanced and desperately trying to put their defenses and buffs up.  In a pitched battle situation you can reasonably assume that both sides will spend some time powering up before fighting actually begins; in an ambush situation, only one side has that expectation.

Having supporters performing decoy 'magical' ceremonies could be a viable tactic in some situations, but opponents with access to Second Sight, Discern Magic and similar effects may be able to tell if MP or RP is actually being circulated, exchanged or expended.  Someone with enough Illusion magic might even try to fake those exchanges to make decoy 'magicians' more attractive targets.  At that point the defending sorcerer is wagering that their attempts at hiding the real source of dangerous magic will keep the opposition targeting phantoms long enough to let them launch their attack.  So, reasonable tactic, if you put in the legwork and showmanship to really sell it--and you're willing to sacrifice those performers to the enemy's attempts at dealing with what they think is a decisive threat.

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9 hours ago, dumuzid said:

To add to icebrand's thoughtful comments on this: in the games I've played and am running, tactics like these aren't a matter of picking on someone, they're what happens when the game really starts to get tactically interesting. 

Completely true.

9 hours ago, dumuzid said:

Like icebrand says, the answer to big extemporaneous sorcery is generally to stop it from going off.  Once it goes off, the Strength of any sorcerous spell big enough to require several turns of casting is going to blast through most magic defenses, if the casting has happened successfully you've already failed to counter it. 

In fact, this is true whatever the kind of magic. If you see a big guy with death rune incanting for more than 1 round, you can bet this will be a sword trance with more than 10MP, which is not good either. When you have an opportunity to stop that, you do it.

9 hours ago, dumuzid said:

The challenge to the sorcerer and their companions is to keep them casting despite the best tricks the enemy can think of to shake them up.  It's when you go a step further though, and players or their opposition start heroquesting to disrupt each other's magic in advance, that things really start to get interesting.  Then you're getting into fifth dimensional combat, and RuneQuest is the only RPG that delivers it quite this way.

I completely agree here.

 

7 hours ago, dumuzid said:

Well, I believe the phenomenon being discussed was sorcerers taking multiple rounds to power up major spells, which I would expect to look and sound rather different from a Humakti calling on Sword Trance in the span of a single strike rank, etc.

True, the look and feel will be different, but any spell, whether Spirit, Runic or Sorcerous, that takes more than 1 round will be powerful and will have big effects. If done in combat, it is logical to try to interrupt the caster. Not doing it is a folly.

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24 minutes ago, Kloster said:

but any spell, whether Spirit, Runic or Sorcerous, that takes more than 1 round will be powerful and will have big effects. If done in combat, it is logical to try to interrupt the caster.

And how do you tell that their spell will take more than one round?  Either mind-reading, or waiting one round.

It's fair to say "I shoot at somebody who looks like they are casting a spell".  But there's no simple way to initially target opponents casting huge, multi-round spells.  By later rounds you could target them, or you might be busy.

It does seem a smart and valid tactic to target anybody Singing, Dancing or Meditating.

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28 minutes ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

And how do you tell that their spell will take more than one round?  Either mind-reading, or waiting one round.

Easy: They are casting a spell (remember, magic is visible, so you see crackling energy and the like), and they don't do anything else during the round.

29 minutes ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

It does seem a smart and valid tactic to target anybody Singing, Dancing or Meditating.

Why not? You may loose some shots, but is is safer because you improve your chance of hitting a caster. At the very least, somebody that meditates during a combat is either a fool or someone that is preparing for a spell, so should be a likely target.

33 minutes ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

It's fair to say "I shoot at somebody who looks like they are casting a spell".  But there's no simple way to initially target opponents casting huge, multi-round spells.  By later rounds you could target them, or you might be busy.

This is why the 'Statement of Intent' phase of the combat round is so important. Your "I shoot at somebody who looks like they are casting a spell" is a perfectly valid option. I would phrase it differently, but I agree.

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9 hours ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

What if everybody stands back and pretends to be casting Sorcery?  What do the trolls do then???

It's mauling time!

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Simon Phipp - Caldmore Chameleon - Wallowing in my elitism since 1982. Many Systems, One Family. Just a fanboy. 

www.soltakss.com/index.html

Jonstown Compendium author. Find my contributions here. 

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10 hours ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

It does seem a smart and valid tactic to target anybody Singing, Dancing or Meditating.

Don't forget that if you use Sing or Chant to augment a spellcasting, it is instant and will not make the spell longer to cast. Meditation is a different story.

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I'll just add my +1 to the majority there. Here's what my NPCs tend to do as a rule of thumb, once they're done casting their own magic (which is generally just the first round... in some cases, they even cast magic and run into melee in the same round).

  • Are there archers in the distance? Allocate a few NPCs to target them directly, either with their own ranged attacks, or by flanking them.
  • Is there someone covered in Death Runes gesticulating or concentrating? Target that person as fast as possible, possibly by having one or two NPCs skip some of their magic casting.
  • Corollary of previous point: it's useful in that case to have a couple dedicated casters who can cast magic on their buddies who are already running into melee. This buys their fighters a few SRs, or even an entire round, and they can get into melee before their enemies have managed to cast their own magic.
  • Corollary of the corollary: is there someone who looks like magic support? (sorcerer manipulating a spell, Earth priestess casting spell from a distance on the Orlanthi warriors, shaman calling upon spirits, etc.). Then, same as archers: allocate a few NPCs to target them directly too.

That's not "picking" on anybody. That's just playing NPCs like they're decently clever and experienced. In many cases, actually, my players come up with way better tactics than me -- I'm a terrible tactician. So I adopt their tactics on the next combat... which they still win because I don't even implement these ideas remotely as well as they do.

 

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Ludovic aka Lordabdul -- read and listen to  The God Learners , the Gloranthan podcast, newsletter, & blog !

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16 minutes ago, lordabdul said:

In many cases, actually, my players come up with way better tactics than me -- I'm a terrible tactician. So I adopt their tactics on the next combat... which they still win because I don't even implement these ideas remotely as well as they do.

I had the opposite problem: My co-players hated when my GM began to use successfully MY tactics.

18 minutes ago, lordabdul said:

I'll just add my +1 to the majority there. Here's what my NPCs tend to do as a rule of thumb, once they're done casting their own magic (which is generally just the first round... in some cases, they even cast magic and run into melee in the same round).

  • Are there archers in the distance? Allocate a few NPCs to target them directly, either with their own ranged attacks, or by flanking them.
  • Is there someone covered in Death Runes gesticulating or concentrating? Target that person as fast as possible, possibly by having one or two NPCs skip some of their magic casting.
  • Corollary of previous point: it's useful in that case to have a couple dedicated casters who can cast magic on their buddies who are already running into melee. This buys their fighters a few SRs, or even an entire round, and they can get into melee before their enemies have managed to cast their own magic.
  • Corollary of the corollary: is there someone who looks like magic support? (sorcerer manipulating a spell, Earth priestess casting spell from a distance on the Orlanthi warriors, shaman calling upon spirits, etc.). Then, same as archers: allocate a few NPCs to target them directly too.

Good.

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Well I certainly am behind in my reading...holy poo!

On 12/11/2020 at 2:23 PM, lordabdul said:

or me, if an NPC suddenly can't breathe and sees a bearded weirdo

Hey, what's this about bearded weirdos? I resemble that remark! :)

 

On 12/12/2020 at 11:18 AM, Brootse said:

Is it viewed to be more evil than killing people with Disruption spells?

Very much!

... remember, with a TARDIS, one is never late for breakfast!

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