Out now: The Red Book of Magic, the ultimate guide to magic in RuneQuest

[DreadDomain]

15 hours ago, Russ Massey said:

Really? Does anywhen think that this change actually makes the game more fun to play or fixes something that was causing rules problems. Just another pointless rule that most groups will completely ignore.

 

9 hours ago, soltakss said:

It follows the normal "fumbles are meant to be bad" rule.

Would I use it in a game? Probably only when casting spells on someone else and, even then, only when it's funny.

 

8 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

I agree, I think I'd say the RP are spent on a fumble but not permanently.

Hmmm good point. Losing them permanently seems harsh. Just spending them with no effect is punishment enough.

[soltakss]

12 hours ago, DreadDomain said:

21 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

I agree, I think I'd say the RP are spent on a fumble but not permanently.

Hmmm good point. Losing them permanently seems harsh. Just spending them with no effect is punishment enough.

I always find it funny when games designers are asked for explicit clarification on exactly how the rules for something should work, because the current rules are unclear, then when they clarify it people say they won't follow their clarifications.

Of course, I am in a different boat, as I just use the rules as guidelines, using what I like and changing what I don't like.

[Russ Massey]

2 hours ago, soltakss said:

I always find it funny when games designers are asked for explicit clarification on exactly how the rules for something should work, because the current rules are unclear, then when they clarify it people say they won't follow their clarifications.

Of course, I am in a different boat, as I just use the rules as guidelines, using what I like and changing what I don't like.

No clarification was needed. On the core book on page 314 it tells you how to cast a rune magic. It tells you there is a bonus for making a critical roll  and it tells you that for a fumble the spell does not take effect and the rune points are lost. Changing this to a permanent loss is not a clarification - it is a change to the original rules.

[Paid a bod yn dwp]

1 hour ago, Russ Massey said:

Changing this to a permanent loss is not a clarification - it is a change to the original rules.

That’s just clarifying what already happens with one-use spells (at least by the RBM clarification) Looks to me that It’s just following the One-Use ruling, that all spent rune points are lost permanently.

I guess (no book to hand at the moment) that standard rune magic just looses the rune point on a fumble, but is recoverable at a worship ceremony? 

Edited January 10, 2021 by Paid a bod yn dwp

[Baron Wulfraed]

Main book, page 314

5 hours ago, Paid a bod yn dwp said:

That’s just clarifying what already happens with one-use spells (at least by the RBM clarification) Looks to me that It’s just following the One-Use ruling, that all spent rune points are lost permanently.

I guess (no book to hand at the moment) that standard rune magic just looses the rune point on a fumble, but is recoverable at a worship ceremony? 

Given that page 314 states for a non-fumble failure (hmm, no way to insert a quote block?)

"""
If the casting success roll is greater than the adventurer’s relevant Rune affinity, the spell is not cast, and there is no Rune point loss. If the adventurer is boosting the spell with additional magic points, they lose 1 magic point (no matter how many are being spent). On a fumble, the spell fails and the adventurer loses the Rune points intended for the spell.
"""

"""
Once spent, Rune points must be replenished before they can be used again.
"""

It would seem rather punitive to have a permanent loss on a fumble when plain failure essentially has no effect at all. Permanent loss might make sense if a failure resulted in the (recoverable) loss of the RPs -- as if the spell had succeeded -- but with no spell effect taking place.

Including the success categories, I see four levels of cost here:

• Critical Success: spell succeeds, NO RP COST (spell is free)
• Normal Success: spell succeeds, at REGULAR RP COST (recoverable via worship)
• Normal Failure: spell does not go off, NO RP COST (absolutely nothing happens)
• Fumble: spell does not go off, at REGULAR RP COST (ie; recoverable via worship)

In contrast to the second quote above, the RBoM, page 9, on one-use spells explicitly states

"""
The Rune points used to cast spells designated as ‘one-use’ in the Rune spell or cult descriptions cannot be replenished.
"""

The four levels of cost for one-use spells (still page 9) come out to be

• Critical Success: spell succeeds, NO RP COST (spell is free)
• Normal Success: spell succeeds, at PERMANENT RP COST (not recoverable)
• Normal Failure: spell does not go off, NO RP COST (absolutely nothing happens)
• Fumble: spell does not go off, at PERMANENT RP COST (not recoverable)

Note the symmetry between one-use and reusable spells: 0 RP, x RP, 0 RP, x RP. The difference is that one-use spells have permanent RP loss while reusable spells have recoverable RP loss.

 

[PhilHibbs]

47 minutes ago, Baron Wulfraed said:

In contrast to the second quote above, the RBoM, page 9, on one-use spells explicitly states

"""
The Rune points used to cast spells designated as ‘one-use’ in the Rune spell or cult descriptions cannot be replenished.
"""

I don't get what that is supposed to be a contrast to.

[DreadDomain]

1 hour ago, Baron Wulfraed said:

Including the success categories, I see four levels of cost here:

• Critical Success: spell succeeds, NO RP COST (spell is free)
• Normal Success: spell succeeds, at REGULAR RP COST (recoverable via worship)
• Normal Failure: spell does not go off, NO RP COST (absolutely nothing happens)
• Fumble: spell does not go off, at REGULAR RP COST (ie; recoverable via worship)

[snip] One-Use spell

1 hour ago, Baron Wulfraed said:

The four levels of cost for one-use spells (still page 9) come out to be

• Critical Success: spell succeeds, NO RP COST (spell is free)
• Normal Success: spell succeeds, at PERMANENT RP COST (not recoverable)
• Normal Failure: spell does not go off, NO RP COST (absolutely nothing happens)
• Fumble: spell does not go off, at PERMANENT RP COST (not recoverable)

Note the symmetry between one-use and reusable spells: 0 RP, x RP, 0 RP, x RP. The difference is that one-use spells have permanent RP loss while reusable spells have recoverable RP loss.

 

I add not seen it that way. For one use spells the jump of consequence between failure (nothing) and fumble (permanent loss of RP) looks harsh but when you put it that way... I like the symmetry. 

[Paid a bod yn dwp]

1 hour ago, Baron Wulfraed said:

Main book, page 314

Given that page 314 states for a non-fumble failure (hmm, no way to insert a quote block?)

"""
If the casting success roll is greater than the adventurer’s relevant Rune affinity, the spell is not cast, and there is no Rune point loss. If the adventurer is boosting the spell with additional magic points, they lose 1 magic point (no matter how many are being spent). On a fumble, the spell fails and the adventurer loses the Rune points intended for the spell.
"""

"""
Once spent, Rune points must be replenished before they can be used again.
"""

It would seem rather punitive to have a permanent loss on a fumble when plain failure essentially has no effect at all. Permanent loss might make sense if a failure resulted in the (recoverable) loss of the RPs -- as if the spell had succeeded -- but with no spell effect taking place.

Including the success categories, I see four levels of cost here:

• Critical Success: spell succeeds, NO RP COST (spell is free)
• Normal Success: spell succeeds, at REGULAR RP COST (recoverable via worship)
• Normal Failure: spell does not go off, NO RP COST (absolutely nothing happens)
• Fumble: spell does not go off, at REGULAR RP COST (ie; recoverable via worship)

In contrast to the second quote above, the RBoM, page 9, on one-use spells explicitly states

"""
The Rune points used to cast spells designated as ‘one-use’ in the Rune spell or cult descriptions cannot be replenished.
"""

The four levels of cost for one-use spells (still page 9) come out to be

• Critical Success: spell succeeds, NO RP COST (spell is free)
• Normal Success: spell succeeds, at PERMANENT RP COST (not recoverable)
• Normal Failure: spell does not go off, NO RP COST (absolutely nothing happens)
• Fumble: spell does not go off, at PERMANENT RP COST (not recoverable)

Note the symmetry between one-use and reusable spells: 0 RP, x RP, 0 RP, x RP. The difference is that one-use spells have permanent RP loss while reusable spells have recoverable RP loss.

 

Yes agree. That’s the point I was making. The rules aren’t unduly punishing One-use spells on a fumble, It’s just that the defining aspect of one-use spell is that the rune points are spent permanently when casting, and by extension fumbling.

[Baron Wulfraed]

3 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

I don't get what that is supposed to be a contrast to.

The primary book comment about for reusable spells, that RPs "must be replenished".

[PhilHibbs]

12 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

I don't get what that is supposed to be a contrast to.

8 hours ago, Baron Wulfraed said:

The primary book comment about for reusable spells, that RPs "must be replenished".

Still not getting it. Specifically, what is the contradiction?

[moonwolf8]

So the Red Book of Magic covers Rune and Spirit magic.  Can we look forward to a Blue Book of Magic to cover Sorcery and Siddahs or whatever it is your calling Mystic Magic?

[Glorion]

Question! I have a Yelornan with Shooting Star. When it says in the Red Book that "armor
protects against this damage but magical resistance does not apply," does that only mean that it ignores Countermagic, or does it also means it ignores magical resistance such as the Protection spell?

[Rodney Dangerduck]

On 1/15/2021 at 4:13 PM, Glorion said:

Question! I have a Yelornan with Shooting Star

And, as a follow-up.  You cast Shooting Star and carefully place that arrow into a specially marked quiver.  Tomorrow is your holy day.  What happens?

[Rodney Dangerduck]

On 1/17/2021 at 6:44 PM, Rodney Dangerduck said:

And, as a follow-up.  You cast Shooting Star and carefully place that arrow into a specially marked quiver.  Tomorrow is your holy day.  What happens?

For the record, this was answered in another thread.  The intent is that the arrow should be used immediately.  So the arrow in the specially marked quiver is just a normal arrow.

[MOB]

Fresh from our Polish printer - we got a look at advance copies of The Red Book of Magic today, and it sure is beautiful! The rest are being dispatched to our warehouses and will be available for purchase soon.

In the mean time, remember if you buy the PDF direct from Chaosium.com you get the full price of the PDF off the physical book when it is out.

[Bill the barbarian]

8 hours ago, MOB said:

Fresh from our Polish printer - we got a look at advance copies of The Red Book of Magic today, and it sure is beautiful! The rest are being dispatched to our warehouses and will be available for purchase soon.

 

Shiny!

[Ian Absentia]

26 minutes ago, Bill the barbarian said:

Shiny!

It's in the polish.

!i!

Edited April 3, 2021 by Ian Absentia