Purchasing magical items?

[Kloster]

27 minutes ago, Godlearner said:

As pointed out, it is too open to abuse. All you need to do is Dominate/Command/Control spell and you are sitting on a POW mine.

And I am not even mention just plain old fashion coercion.

As I explained earlier (and was explained before by Jeff), this does not work. POW has to be given fully voluntarily. Iirc, the explanation war that otherwise, the POW is corrupted and can not be used. He explicitly ruled out POW given under Dominate/Command/Control spells.

[Godlearner]

Quote

POW has to be given fully voluntarily. Iirc, the explanation war that otherwise, the POW is corrupted and can not be used. 

Edit that into the rules. Most people do not see these explanations otherwise. 

[Kloster]

19 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

And even if there are changes, later publications in the same system of canon can overwrite/retcon earlier stuff (I'm assuming there are actual contradictions between Thunder Rebels and S:KoH), while still being one maintained canon. For instance, mainstream (non-cinematic, non-Ultimate, and so on) Earth-616 in Marvel continuity has seen more retcons than Glorantha could ever dream of, but it's still one system of canon. While the DC Universe is not, as it has been fully rebooted any number of times by now.

Exactly. DC Universe has been rebooted (Remember 'Crisis on Infinite Earth'), Marvel Universe has been rebooted. And Glorantha has been rebooted. I don't know anything of the evolution during HW/HQ period, but RQ Glorantha and HW Glorantha are clearly (for me) not the same world. As it is the same name put on something quite similar that appear later, it can be called a reboot.

[Akhôrahil]

37 minutes ago, Kloster said:

Marvel Universe has been rebooted. 

I'm not sure about Marvel - yes, the entire universe was theoretically restarted after Hickman's run, but it was still completely in continuity with the old one. Meanwhile, DC has had several actual reboots.

When would you argue Glorantha was rebooted? I don't see it. However, it has definitely been forked, which is kinda unusual. We now have parallel continuities.

Edited December 18, 2020 by Akhôrahil

[Kloster]

32 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

When would you argue Glorantha was rebooted? I don't see it. However, it has definitely been forked, which is kinda unusual. We now have parallel continuities.

The reboot I was thinking of is Herowars. You can call that a Fork, it is also fine for me: Both means it is not the same thing anymore, even if having the same origin.

[Scorus]

Wow, I didn't expect my question to lead to such Gloranthan existentialism! There are clearly holes that need to be filled to avoid munchkin abuse, but most of them don't seem difficult to handle.

As to whether Glorantha has been or can be rebooted, I think that is currently happening. But as I have a couple of history degrees sitting around collecting dust somewhere, I understand and accept that these kinds of reboots are the way!

[Akhôrahil]

5 hours ago, Scorus said:

As to whether Glorantha has been or can be rebooted, I think that is currently happening. 

I would personally say that it’s being very heavily (and heavy-handedly) retconned as a couple of decades’ worth of HW/HQ material is being excised.

[Kloster]

31 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

I would personally say that it’s being very heavily (and heavy-handedly) retconned as a couple of decades’ worth of HW/HQ material is being excised.

In that case, your 'fork' word is correct. Better than my 'reboot'.

[Godlearner]

On 12/18/2020 at 6:08 AM, Akhôrahil said:

Also, such empires might not make it entirely voluntary whether to provide your POW to the national coffers.

Yeah, that does not work as stated previously. It has to be "totally" voluntary. 

[Akhôrahil]

14 minutes ago, Godlearner said:

Yeah, that does not work as stated previously. It has to be "totally" voluntary. 

I agree that it doesn't work under mind-control or under direct threat of murder, but what about for instance taxation or fines? You don't have to donate POW, you can pay the very high monetary taxes/serve your full sentence in the quarry instead, it's completely up to you. 

Compare to sacrificing POW to the wyter. I suppose sometimes it happens because someone really feels grateful about something, but a lot of the time, it's bound to happen under social pressure - you may want to use your POW for something that benefits you more directly, but this sacrifice is what we do in our society, and if you don't like it, you're free to leave (which of course isn't much of a freedom).

Edited December 19, 2020 by Akhôrahil

[Godlearner]

Quote

I agree that it doesn't work under mind-control or under direct threat of murder, but what about for instance taxation or fines? You don't have to donate POW, you can pay the very high monetary taxes/serve your full sentence in the quarry instead, it's completely up to you. 

Yeah, but then you have a situation of "please voluntary donate POW or we kill your wife". 

[Kloster]

47 minutes ago, Godlearner said:

Yeah, but then you have a situation of "please voluntary donate POW or we kill your wife". 

This is why I prefer 'POW not given fully voluntarily is corrupted'. This avoids much problems like this one.

[Godlearner]

2 minutes ago, Kloster said:

This is why I prefer 'POW not given fully voluntarily is corrupted'. This avoids much problems like this one.

And this why I just took that rule out as it is too ambiguous for my tastes.

[soltakss]

There was a Magical sword Shop in an early fanzine/magazine, it might have been Different Worlds. Basically, you went there to purchase a magical sword with various powers. It felt a bit D&D-like, but was pretty good for Rune Level PCs.

[Shiningbrow]

On 12/17/2020 at 9:38 PM, Brootse said:

For smaller crystals that wouldn't be of use for spirits, I've just used the MP enchantment cost, and for larger ones the minimum cost would be 400L.

???

What do you mean "smaller crystals that wouldn't be of use for spirits"??? Isn't that the best use of a low POW crystal?  (the POW of a crystal has zero effect on the POW - or other characteristics - of a spirit to be trapped within it)

[Brootse]

6 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

???

What do you mean "smaller crystals that wouldn't be of use for spirits"??? Isn't that the best use of a low POW crystal?  (the POW of a crystal has zero effect on the POW - or other characteristics - of a spirit to be trapped within it)

Hah, I thought that it did have an effect. But yeah, the rules specifically say on p. 122 Gamemaster Adventures that "This limit does not apply, however, to the POW of a spirit contained within a crystal." So the minimum price for all POW crystals should be 400L.

[PhilHibbs]

2 hours ago, Brootse said:

...So the minimum price for all POW crystals should be 400L.

I really don't like "rules" (or conclusions) like this. Prices in rules should always be a rough guide, there are going to be other factors that affect prices enormously.

[Lordabdul]

On 12/18/2020 at 9:49 AM, PhilHibbs said:

Are there therefore three very different Gloranthas? Well, there are as many different Gloranthas as there are GMs, possible more. So sure, if you WANT to extrapolate your Glorantha from RQG, there's nothing stopping you from doing so. But there's also nothing forcing you to do so either.

I do agree with the other people pointing out that RQ's Glorantha differs from HQ's Glorantha, and they both differ quite a lot from 13AG's Glorantha. On a personal taste note, I prefer it when the PCs "work" the same way as the rest of the world. They may be narratively set aside (being the protagonists of the story) but that's it. Probably a habit coming from CoC where the PCs are "just mundane people" and don't have any mechanical advantage over whatever NPC they meet.

 

On 12/18/2020 at 11:46 AM, Joerg said:

Stickpickers don't usually get access to "Enchant" magics, that's restricted to runemasters who by definition are of a higher social standing or shamans who have a different, but also elevated standing. I don't see any stickpicker sorcerers happen.

The whole discourse about stickpickers, slaves, and other poor people supposedly sitting on a pile of money is I think misguided anyway.

Whatever price per POW we can come up with is the price for the entire business of making an X points enchantment. That's not necessarily the price paid directly to the person sacrificing these points of POW. These people are just, at best, assistants, and they're taking an appropriately low percentage of that price (the enchanter has final word on how that money is allocated).

If you consider a weapon making store, the blacksmith will take a high percentage of the price of a sword per point of damage, while the kid who pumps the furnace will only get a few coins. Similarly, the person who helps the master enchanter do their rituals (by sacrificing POW or cleaning the workbench or whatever) will also only get a few coins. The real mastery is in orchestrating the multi-POW-point enchantment, not in giving a point of POW per se. Anybody can sacrifice a point of POW, so it's cheap, of course. Common sense and extrapolation of the setting can therefore align... but see below for another option, however.

I figure that poor people may come by the local temple to donate POW and get a few coins, especially in the week before a holy day. Enchanters may have to adjust their contracting schedule accordingly, where if you order a special magical item, you get it after the next holy day. It would happen even if the enchanter was alone (since they also have to recover their own points), but by having volunteers from the local community, they can take on a few additional orders and spread a bit of wealth. Another common practice might be that the person who ordered the magical object has an appointment to come and provide most of the POW sacrifice in order to get a discount. I also assume that some places in the West make that an expected social obligation, whether it's via an Invisible God worship ceremony or something else.. like donating blood at the local blood blank. Of course, in those places, it might be framed differently because the enchanter would probably keep the benefits (and magical items) to themselves.

 

On 12/18/2020 at 2:36 PM, Godlearner said:

As pointed out, it is too open to abuse. All you need to do is Dominate/Command/Control spell and you are sitting on a POW mine.

Another possible small tweak (which still fits the rules nicely) is to say that the people donating POW have to also know enchantment rituals, since they are participating in one. That way, you could only coerce Rune Masters and other people with access to enchantments... that suddenly becomes a lot harder to get free POW points from other people.

 

On 12/18/2020 at 9:55 AM, soltakss said:

RQ2 had prices for buying Magical Items, Griffin Mountain  might have had them at Gonn Orta's Castle. You could take those prices and divide them by the recommended amount in the RQ Conversion rules.

So as an example (with converted prices), and assuming I didn't make a mistake: a Bladesharp 4 Broadsword would be 50 L (price of the sword) plus 200 L * 50% = 100 L (for the spell) plus 500 L for "additional labour", which gives a grand total of 650 L. Interestingly, Griffin Mountain mentions that such a cool blade would most likely be decorated with silver and gems, and the total price would typically exceed 1000 L in this case. That's good flavour stuff, IMHO, where if you have magical item stores, the prices would be inflated because all the items are "flashy". And if a PC wants to pay the minimum by putting a big spell on a normal item, they would get a judgemental look from the enchanter.

 

 

Edited December 22, 2020 by lordabdul

[Kloster]

4 hours ago, lordabdul said:

Whatever price per POW we can come up with is the price for the entire business of making an X points enchantment. That's not necessarily the price paid directly to the person sacrificing these points of POW. These people are just, at best, assistants, and they're taking an appropriately low percentage of that price (the enchanter has final word on how that money is allocated).

On this, I can not agree. The 200L/point I spoke is only for the POW. It does not include the cost of the object, nor the cost of the enchant itself. This is why I spoke of base price.

4 hours ago, lordabdul said:

If you consider a weapon making store, the blacksmith will take a high percentage of the price of a sword per point of damage, while the kid who pumps the furnace will only get a few coins. Similarly, the person who helps the master enchanter do their rituals (by sacrificing POW or cleaning the workbench or whatever) will also only get a few coins. The real mastery is in orchestrating the multi-POW-point enchantment, not in giving a point of POW per se. Anybody can sacrifice a point of POW, so it's cheap, of course. Common sense and extrapolation of the setting can therefore align... but see below for another option, however.

I figure that poor people may come by the local temple to donate POW and get a few coins, especially in the week before a holy day. Enchanters may have to adjust their contracting schedule accordingly, where if you order a special magical item, you get it after the next holy day. It would happen even if the enchanter was alone (since they also have to recover their own points), but by having volunteers from the local community, they can take on a few additional orders and spread a bit of wealth. Another common practice might be that the person who ordered the magical object has an appointment to come and provide most of the POW sacrifice in order to get a discount. I also assume that some places in the West make that an expected social obligation, whether it's via an Invisible God worship ceremony or something else.. like donating blood at the local blood blank. Of course, in those places, it might be framed differently because the enchanter would probably keep the benefits (and magical items) to themselves.

Agreed. Good ideas.

4 hours ago, lordabdul said:

Another possible small tweak (which still fits the rules nicely) is to say that the people donating POW have to also know enchantment rituals, since they are participating in one. That way, you could only coerce Rune Masters and other people with access to enchantments... that suddenly becomes a lot harder to get free POW points from other people.

Not RAW, but good ideas.

4 hours ago, lordabdul said:

So as an example (with converted prices), and assuming I didn't make a mistake: a Bladesharp 4 Broadsword would be 50 L (price of the sword) plus 200 L * 50% = 100 L (for the spell) plus 500 L for "additional labour", which gives a grand total of 650 L.

Yes. In fact here, you are in line with my base price story.

4 hours ago, lordabdul said:

Interestingly, Griffin Mountain mentions that such a cool blade would most likely be decorated with silver and gems, and the total price would typically exceed 1000 L in this case. That's good flavour stuff, IMHO, where if you have magical item stores, the prices would be inflated because all the items are "flashy". And if a PC wants to pay the minimum by putting a big spell on a normal item, they would get a judgemental look from the enchanter.

Yes, of course. In addition, the flashy objects will attract attention to thieves, authority, brigands and others.

[French Desperate WindChild]

13 hours ago, Brootse said:

Hah, I thought that it did have an effect. But yeah, the rules specifically say on p. 122 Gamemaster Adventures that "This limit does not apply, however, to the POW of a spirit contained within a crystal." So the minimum price for all POW crystals should be 400L.

as a crystal is not a sacrifice from a mortal but a sacrifice from a greater entity I would consider a very higher price, not only for the "power" in game but also for the "representation", "the rarity".

For example what is the price of Kallyr's star ?

After all, it is just a kind of crystal containing a great spirit/god ! 400L ? (I know you said "minimum" so that is not what you said )

 

In fact I m very cautious with this magic economy. You go in prax, you raid a weak clan, and that is done, you have enough to buy two or three matrix (or little crystal).

Compared to 1 enc of iron what is the best between  bladesharp 6 matrix in a bronze sword, or a death metal sword  (well... half a dagger and not enchanted for the same price) ?

 

[Shiningbrow]

5 hours ago, lordabdul said:

Another possible small tweak (which still fits the rules nicely) is to say that the people donating POW have to also know enchantment rituals, since they are participating in one. That way, you could only coerce Rune Masters and other people with access to enchantments... that suddenly becomes a lot harder to get free POW points from other people.

Even if you really wanted to do that, it's merely a 1-pt spirit magic spell...

[Kloster]

11 minutes ago, Shiningbrow said:

Even if you really wanted to do that, it's merely a 1-pt spirit magic spell...

That can be in a matrix, brought in by the enchanter, just in case the POW giver does not know it!

[Shiningbrow]

4 minutes ago, Kloster said:

That can be in a matrix, brought in by the enchanter, just in case the POW giver does not know it!

Munchkin!!!

[PhilHibbs]

5 hours ago, lordabdul said:

I do agree with the other people pointing out that RQ's Glorantha differs from HQ's Glorantha, and they both differ quite a lot from 13AG's Glorantha.

Absolute nonsense! Of course, Glorantha is itself absolute nonsense, so if that's the way your Gloranthas are, then that's perfectly fine! Go have fun in them! But my Glorantha isn't like that. My RQG Glorantha is the same as my Hero Wars Glorantha (I never ran HeroQuest).

[PhilHibbs]

1 hour ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

In fact I m very cautious with this magic economy.

That's because it's not an economy. It's a rules system for running fun games with small groups of adventurers.