Purchasing magical items?

[Kloster]

1 hour ago, Akhôrahil said:

Where are the rules about upgrading an existing enchantment?

RQG p251

[Akhôrahil]

1 hour ago, Kloster said:

RQG p251

Thanks - yes, you can upgrade these special conditions at the very least.

[Kloster]

1 hour ago, Akhôrahil said:

Thanks - yes, you can upgrade these special conditions at the very least.

You have also something in the decription of "Enchant Spell Matrix" p 265: The strength of a matrix can be built up over time. Thus a 2-point Bladesharp matrix could be built up into a 4-point matrix by later sacrifices of POW and successful Enchantment rolls. The matrix can also be created a part at a time, so that a 3-point Bladesharp matrix, needing 3 points of sacrificed POW, can be done over the course of several weeks or even seasons. Of course, it does not have the spell until the entire sacrifice is made.

Also, p335: For example, to make a spear into a Thunderbolt matrix requires 3 points of POW. The strength of a matrix can be built up over time. Thus, the Thunderbolt matrix could later have an extra point of POW stacked with it by later sacrifices of POW. Similarly, to create a Strength matrix, 2 points of POW must be sacrificed into the item. The Thunderbolt matrix, needing 3 points of sacrificed POW, can be done over the course of several weeks or even seasons. The spear does not have the Rune spell until the entire sacrifice is made.

So, even if not explicitly written, it is clearly implied that you can add POW later to an enchantment, as was already the case in RQ3  (Magic book p58): "Stackable spirit spells can be slowly enchanted into the item, a point at a time."

[Brootse]

15 hours ago, Glorion said:

A limited notion of how the world works. Only in a monetary economy, which, basically, Sartar is not. Pretty common in the Lunar empire, or Nochet perhaps, or the West, but not in most of Dragon Pass, to say nothing of Prax. 200L equals a lot of cows. Yes in theory you could get a lot of cows for a Runepoint, but in practice that could beggar your village, so it doesn't happen. And besides, how many enchanters are there anyway? Damn few. Basically, in Sartar for a rune point for the enchantment Queen Leika's enchanter has been planning for a couple years, you might get a big favor, you might thoroughly impress Queen Leika. 

All the prices in the rules are specifically for the Dragon Pass area.

[PhilHibbs]

47 minutes ago, Brootse said:

All the prices in the rules are specifically for the Dragon Pass area.

Which is a hugely diverse area. Metal items are more valuable in Prax, for instance, where you can buy herd beasts cheaper than elsewhere. This is not in the rules, because the core rules are not written to accurately model commerce. They are written for adventuring.

[Brootse]

1 hour ago, PhilHibbs said:

Which is a hugely diverse area. Metal items are more valuable in Prax, for instance, where you can buy herd beasts cheaper than elsewhere. This is not in the rules, because the core rules are not written to accurately model commerce. They are written for adventuring.

Prax is a different area.

[Akhôrahil]

19 hours ago, Glorion said:

And besides, how many enchanters are there anyway? Damn few. Basically, in Sartar for a rune point for the enchantment Queen Leika's enchanter has been planning for a couple years, you might get a big favor, you might thoroughly impress Queen Leika. 

I don't believe this is the case at all. There are enough heirlooms floating around that most PCs own something enchanted. Magical places will often be enchanted. I assume every temple of any decent size includes a number of enchantments (wardings, bound spirits, and so on). Enchanted weapons are incredibly useful. Any Priest or Rune-Lord can potentially make them (there must be thousands of them in Sartar), and will often have good reason to (and pick the spells accordingly), and you can even get away with doing it with Spirit Magic (handing out fetishes with bound spirits is going to be one of the more important tasks for a shaman in a shamanistic society). Most initiates can cast a Warding. While my players have PCs, of course, one of the first things they did when getting their new longhouse in the Risklands was to slap a 4-point Warding on it, which is pretty brutal. 

Edited December 27, 2020 by Akhôrahil

[Shiningbrow]

4 hours ago, Kloster said:

<snip>

Which takes us back to the question we had... Whose POW 3 weeks later?

[Akhôrahil]

19 minutes ago, Shiningbrow said:

Which takes us back to the question we had... Whose POW 3 weeks later?

I think that going strictly by the rules, it's the same enchantment (only improved), so that the 1 mandatory POW for the enchanter has already been provided (that is, it's 1 POW per actual enchantment, not 1 POW per enchantment event). However, since presumably another enchanter can improve on the enchantment, if that happens, the new enchanter has to add one point of his own POW the first time.

Edited December 27, 2020 by Akhôrahil

[Glorion]

9 hours ago, Brootse said:

All the prices in the rules are specifically for the Dragon Pass area.

Sure. Except practically nobody in Sartar except the nobility and rich merchants has that much money. And in Prax, it's rare to find anyone with more than a few clacks. So the prices are another way of saying "not available."

[Kloster]

8 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

I think that going strictly by the rules, it's the same enchantment (only improved), so that the 1 mandatory POW for the enchanter has already been provided (that is, it's 1 POW per actual enchantment, not 1 POW per enchantment event). However, since presumably another enchanter can improve on the enchantment, if that happens, the new enchanter has to add one point of his own POW the first time.

I haven't thought of it that way, but I am converted. Brilliant.

[PhilHibbs]

11 hours ago, Brootse said:

Prax is a different area.

The basic point still stands though. The prices are a simplification. RQ3 had different prices for civilized, rural, and wasteland areas but I think this was deemed unnecessary detail for RQG, not a statement that Dragon Pass has strict price conformity.

[Kloster]

8 hours ago, Glorion said:

Sure. Except practically nobody in Sartar except the nobility and rich merchants has that much money. And in Prax, it's rare to find anyone with more than a few clacks. So the prices are another way of saying "not available."

In fact, I think the right answer is what PhilHibbs told:

17 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

This is not in the rules, because the core rules are not written to accurately model commerce. They are written for adventuring.

After all, a broadsword is worth 50L (close to 1 year of living for 1 free family), and almost 1 adventurer has one. The listed prices are only for having interesting adventuring, and are only a simplified abstraction of Gloranthan economics, as are the various standard of living.

[Lordabdul]

3 hours ago, Kloster said:

After all, a broadsword is worth 50L (close to 1 year of living for 1 free family), and almost 1 adventurer has one. The listed prices are only for having interesting adventuring, and are only a simplified abstraction of Gloranthan economics, as are the various standard of living.

Remember that most people in a clan would have a sword/axe/shield/etc provided by the clan -- they're not paying for it, and it's not theirs to sell.

[Kloster]

2 minutes ago, lordabdul said:

Remember that most people in a clan would have a sword/axe/shield/etc provided by the clan -- they're not paying for it, and it's not theirs to sell.

Agreed.This is why I am speaking of economics abstractions and of rules and prices made for adventuring, not to describe a working society at the global economic level.

[Glorion]

4 hours ago, Kloster said:

In fact, I think the right answer is what PhilHibbs told:

After all, a broadsword is worth 50L (close to 1 year of living for 1 free family), and almost 1 adventurer has one. The listed prices are only for having interesting adventuring, and are only a simplified abstraction of Gloranthan economics, as are the various standard of living.

True enough. Your average Sartarite farmer or herder has a wooden spear, and couldn't possibly afford a bronze broadsword. Munchkinnery with selling points of power to get rich, or getting NPCs to sac power for enchantments, can easily be prevented by any intelligent GM by bringing in a few facts of life from actual Gloranthan economics or lack thereof, and should be. I think anyone trying that kind of thing should be assumed to be a secret sorceror who really is using Tap, and likely is chaotic, and should be treated accordingly. Unless it's a Lunar campaign, in which case the assumptions might be the same but the popular and government attitudes would be different.

[Kloster]

21 minutes ago, Glorion said:

True enough. Your average Sartarite farmer or herder has a wooden spear, and couldn't possibly afford a bronze broadsword. Munchkinnery with selling points of power to get rich, or getting NPCs to sac power for enchantments, can easily be prevented by any intelligent GM by bringing in a few facts of life from actual Gloranthan economics or lack thereof, and should be. I think anyone trying that kind of thing should be assumed to be a secret sorceror who really is using Tap, and likely is chaotic, and should be treated accordingly. Unless it's a Lunar campaign, in which case the assumptions might be the same but the popular and government attitudes would be different.

While I don't agree it is munchkinery, I think as you this has to be a local and societal matter. A lunar campaign should have different rules than a Heortling one.

[PhilHibbs]

Also, anyone buying POW from poor folk will run into trouble with the priests. There are several wyters  that need that spare POW.

[Shiningbrow]

52 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

Also, anyone buying POW from poor folk will run into trouble with the priests. There are several wyters  that need that spare POW.

For me, so far this is the only point even close to legitimate for restricting the stickpicker enchantment POW economy.

All other arguments are "I'm the GM, and I don't want my players to have it easy".

[Bill the barbarian]

On 12/25/2020 at 9:47 AM, Brootse said:

The theory in my group is that the CA healers use their vast incomes on coke and hooker parties.

Oy, what a Mõtley Crüe

 

On 12/25/2020 at 9:51 AM, Brootse said:

but there are some absurd things in the rules, eg. CA resurrection costs, inflated bow prices, and stickpickers making fortunes from enchanting.

And not a duck in sight, bless you!

 

18 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

The basic point still stands though. The prices are a simplification. RQ3 had different prices for civilized, rural, and wasteland areas but I think this was deemed unnecessary detail for RQG, not a statement that Dragon Pass has strict price conformity.

And that is Phil just being Phil there are few with as good a grasp on the game and as a gentle a hand at applying them!

 

14 hours ago, Kloster said:

After all, a broadsword is worth 50L (close to 1 year of living for 1 free family), and almost 1 adventurer has one. The listed prices are only for having interesting adventuring, and are only a simplified abstraction of Gloranthan economics, as are the various standard of living.

Correct!

10 hours ago, lordabdul said:

Remember that most people in a clan would have a sword/axe/shield/etc provided by the clan -- they're not paying for it, and it's not theirs to sell.

Yes indeed!

 

10 hours ago, Kloster said:

Agreed.This is why I am speaking of economics abstractions and of rules and prices made for adventuring, not to describe a working society at the global economic level.

Amen!

Edited December 28, 2020 by Bill the barbarian

[Joerg]

On 12/27/2020 at 3:18 AM, Akhôrahil said:

I think that going strictly by the rules, it's the same enchantment (only improved), so that the 1 mandatory POW for the enchanter has already been provided (that is, it's 1 POW per actual enchantment, not 1 POW per enchantment event). However, since presumably another enchanter can improve on the enchantment, if that happens, the new enchanter has to add one point of his own POW the first time.

Being a GM obsessed with such details, my interpretation would be that for each enchantment process - whether original or subsequent - the person performing the enchantment has to pour one point of POW into the enchantment. That person may bring in additional POW from their own magic, or they may use POW provided by volunteers.

Using your own mana is what is required to manifest this permanent (until destroyed) magic in the material world. People are pouring the fabric of their soul into this, then bind it off, separating the item from their own magical existence. Once separated this way, a new bit of that fabric needs to be poured into that item. While this happens, donations may use this connection between the enchanter and the item to contribute some of their own potential to manifest magic in this world. The successful enchantment then severs that connection - if it didn't, the death of any of the creators of / donors to the item would diminish the item in the way that MOB's Humakti Lottery Swords decay. No such effect has been observed for enchantments. In fact, the majority of enchantments worn by RQG characters would be heirlooms from past generations.

 

13 hours ago, Kloster said:

After all, a broadsword is worth 50L (close to 1 year of living for 1 free family), and almost 1 adventurer has one. The listed prices are only for having interesting adventuring, and are only a simplified abstraction of Gloranthan economics, as are the various standard of living.

I sort of disagree with this notion. A destitute stickpicker will (barely) survive on zero L through the (possibly grudging) minimal support by their clan and whatever they can scrounge up.

These 50L are what is required to maintain the respectability of a free household. Bling showing off the status, (public) consumption of higher grade food, parading different items of clothing or adornments in social circumstances. A bit like having an I-phone that is no older than 2 or 3 years where an older model or one from a no-name manufacturer provides basically the same functionality.

 

I don't think that you can put a price to the housing, the rights to hunt and gather, the participation in clan and temple rites (and consumption of food sacrifices) that membership in a clan gives you.

 

Likewise, the price for a spear compared to the price for a sword doesn't compute unless the spear tip received the same amount of refinement as a sword blade does. In the end, you get a functional spear by hacking off a mostly straight branch or sapling, removing any branches (removing the bark is already optional) and crafting it to have a point. Given a piece of flint and a hammer stone, this entire process may be two hours of my time, with skills of "craft flint" or "use flint blade" in the single digit percentage. Looking for a suitable shaft in places where lumber is scarce will add to that time, so in Prax a spear shaft may be more valuable than the stone tip affixed to it.

(Biturian should really have carried spear shafts and axe handles, or maby just "raws", on two or three of his mules. Low investment - maybe a day's worth of a stickpicker's time for that load even if letting it rest for a winter under a shelter made from evergreen branches is added to the effort going into this, decent return. The stickpicker would in all likelihood strip those branches of the bast, which is used as material for cord or ropes, providing extra income while furthering the manufacturing process.)

Spear points affixed to the spear should be the price of the corresponding knife (which needs to be affixed to a grip, too). Good flint was traded almost the same way bronze was traded (except that it wasn't cast into oxhide bars). Pit mines for flint are older than permanent settlements, and there are places where the raw material only needs to be picked up. Taking a piece of flint and knapping it into a functional blade would be the equivalent of us starting up a computer. Okay, maybe our parents starting up a computer.

The bast I mentioned earlier can be one material used to affix a tip of a different material (stone, bone, horn, metal) to the shaft. You may want to use some sticky matter, possibly glue boiled out of bone or hooves, or pitch distilled from bark. That's some extra effort, but then producing this material would yield material for several such tasks.

The Schöningen spears (pre-glacial spears found less than 400 km south of where I live) are currently the oldest documented spears unearthed by archaeologists. Replicas were made of the same material and tested on ballistic gel and pork sides, and those replicas proved to penetrate several inches when thrown.

What's the price for a javelin? And does it have bluetooth to justify those prices?

 

In short, the price for a single spear as per the rules pays for the effort to produce enough spears for a small militia.

[Kloster]

I completely agree with your long post. This is why I wrote :"The listed prices are only for having interesting adventuring, and are only a simplified abstraction of Gloranthan economics, as are the various standard of living. ".

2 hours ago, Joerg said:

Being a GM obsessed with such details, my interpretation would be that for each enchantment process - whether original or subsequent - the person performing the enchantment has to pour one point of POW into the enchantment. That person may bring in additional POW from their own magic, or they may use POW provided by volunteers.

This is what I originally thought.

[Lordabdul]

19 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

All other arguments are "I'm the GM, and I don't want my players to have it easy".

Different arguments have their own pros and cons but I think you're assigning intent where there is none. Any argument could be used for any reason. In reality, if I remember correctly, most of the perceived issues that triggered this whole sub-discussion was about world-building... that is: what does it mean for one's Glorantha if enchanters routinely use volunteers to pour POW into magical items? Do these volunteers get paid, and if so, how much? Does it mean anybody can get rich easily? What are societies' perceptions of such a practice? And so on... So AFAICT most people only wanted to navigate the maze of consequences, figuring out which path lead to gameable realities.

FWIW I think that the argument of not "wasting POW that the Wyter needs" is good, but I'm not convinced that it has much weight on the scale of a clan. There would only be, what, a dozen people capable of doing enchantments in a clan? (Rune Level people who actually picked the Enchantment spells) And maybe only a handful that actually do make any item on a given season? I mean: unless they make it their business (which is possible, but the clan has more need for priests and warriors AFAICT), I'm not sure a given clan needs new magical items very often (for replacing lost/broken items previously given to thanes, as gifts for an upcoming important negotiation, as an item of power for an upcoming clan celebration, etc.) So even if these enchanters grab a total of a handful of people to get their POW any season, I don't think that impacts the overall clan wyter's worship economy much?

Of course, if your Glorantha involves clans with dozens of enchanters with long backorders of magical items, the argument becomes a lot more potent, but then I'm getting curious: what are these enchanters up to? Do they belong to a clan that is known for its export in magical items? Or do all clans use magical item export as a revenue stream? What cool unique gaming opportunities could there be in such Gloranthas?

 

13 hours ago, Joerg said:

MOB's Humakti Lottery Swords

LOL you can't write something like this without elaborating  

Thankfully, I found where it's from: Tales of the Reaching Moon #5.  People without access to it can find a reprint of that material in Armies and Enemies of Dragon Pass (on the Jonstown Compendium).

Edited December 28, 2020 by lordabdul

[Glorion]

14 hours ago, Joerg said:

Being a GM obsessed with such details, my interpretation would be that for each enchantment process - whether original or subsequent - the person performing the enchantment has to pour one point of POW into the enchantment. That person may bring in additional POW from their own magic, or they may use POW provided by volunteers.

Using your own mana is what is required to manifest this permanent (until destroyed) magic in the material world. People are pouring the fabric of their soul into this, then bind it off, separating the item from their own magical existence. Once separated this way, a new bit of that fabric needs to be poured into that item. While this happens, donations may use this connection between the enchanter and the item to contribute some of their own potential to manifest magic in this world. The successful enchantment then severs that connection - if it didn't, the death of any of the creators of / donors to the item would diminish the item in the way that MOB's Humakti Lottery Swords decay. No such effect has been observed for enchantments. In fact, the majority of enchantments worn by RQG characters would be heirlooms from past generations.

 

I sort of disagree with this notion. A destitute stickpicker will (barely) survive on zero L through the (possibly grudging) minimal support by their clan and whatever they can scrounge up.

These 50L are what is required to maintain the respectability of a free household. Bling showing off the status, (public) consumption of higher grade food, parading different items of clothing or adornments in social circumstances. A bit like having an I-phone that is no older than 2 or 3 years where an older model or one from a no-name manufacturer provides basically the same functionality.

 

I don't think that you can put a price to the housing, the rights to hunt and gather, the participation in clan and temple rites (and consumption of food sacrifices) that membership in a clan gives you.

 

Likewise, the price for a spear compared to the price for a sword doesn't compute unless the spear tip received the same amount of refinement as a sword blade does. In the end, you get a functional spear by hacking off a mostly straight branch or sapling, removing any branches (removing the bark is already optional) and crafting it to have a point. Given a piece of flint and a hammer stone, this entire process may be two hours of my time, with skills of "craft flint" or "use flint blade" in the single digit percentage. Looking for a suitable shaft in places where lumber is scarce will add to that time, so in Prax a spear shaft may be more valuable than the stone tip affixed to it.

(Biturian should really have carried spear shafts and axe handles, or maby just "raws", on two or three of his mules. Low investment - maybe a day's worth of a stickpicker's time for that load even if letting it rest for a winter under a shelter made from evergreen branches is added to the effort going into this, decent return. The stickpicker would in all likelihood strip those branches of the bast, which is used as material for cord or ropes, providing extra income while furthering the manufacturing process.)

Spear points affixed to the spear should be the price of the corresponding knife (which needs to be affixed to a grip, too). Good flint was traded almost the same way bronze was traded (except that it wasn't cast into oxhide bars). Pit mines for flint are older than permanent settlements, and there are places where the raw material only needs to be picked up. Taking a piece of flint and knapping it into a functional blade would be the equivalent of us starting up a computer. Okay, maybe our parents starting up a computer.

The bast I mentioned earlier can be one material used to affix a tip of a different material (stone, bone, horn, metal) to the shaft. You may want to use some sticky matter, possibly glue boiled out of bone or hooves, or pitch distilled from bark. That's some extra effort, but then producing this material would yield material for several such tasks.

The Schöningen spears (pre-glacial spears found less than 400 km south of where I live) are currently the oldest documented spears unearthed by archaeologists. Replicas were made of the same material and tested on ballistic gel and pork sides, and those replicas proved to penetrate several inches when thrown.

What's the price for a javelin? And does it have bluetooth to justify those prices?

 

In short, the price for a single spear as per the rules pays for the effort to produce enough spears for a small militia.

Yes, this is what I'm trying to put across. Prax is strictly a barter economy, and Sartar mostly. Realistic prices for Sartar would be in cows, not silvers, and I am not even sure that there is a word that means "price" in the Sartarite dialect of Theyalan. The word "economics" is *absolutely* untranslatable into any dialect of Theyalan, even in Nochet. The concept simply does not exist in Dragon Pass, and probably not elsewhere either, except maybe in Ralios with all those merchant-dominated Italian Renaissance style cities. That prices in the book are in Lunars is for gameplaying convenience, and also reflects the fact that *almost all* adventurers are far richer than average inhabitants of Sartar, to say nothing of Prax. (Except for my broke Eurmali, who is getting the Hotfoot spell by trading a bronze ax he found on a corpse to a Eurmal god talker in Prax, where all weapons are worth more than usual what with Argrath creating an army.)

[Kloster]

1 hour ago, lordabdul said:

In reality, if I remember correctly, most of the perceived issues that triggered this whole sub-discussion was about world-building... that is: what does it mean for one's Glorantha if enchanters routinely use volunteers to pour POW into magical items? Do these volunteers get paid, and if so, how much? Does it mean anybody can get rich easily? What are societies' perceptions of such a practice? And so on... So AFAICT most people only wanted to navigate the maze of consequences, figuring out which path lead to gameable realities.

For my part, completely true.

4 minutes ago, Glorion said:

That prices in the book are in Lunars is for gameplaying convenience, and also reflects the fact that *almost all* adventurers are far richer than average inhabitants of Sartar, to say nothing of Prax.

Exactly what I meant when I spoke of economics abstraction and price of swords.