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What are the requirement to become a sartarite clan chief / tribe king-queen ?


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Hello loremasters

I m not talking about social relationship /influence/intrigue/bribes etc... but more the 'formal and official rules'

Is there any requirement about

the age ?

the cult ? (for example do you need to be Orlanth worshipper to become a tribe king or can you join Orlanth Rex without being initiate of Orlanth ? Must a woman benn initiate of vingan at least or can she be ernalda worshipper ? what about Issaries, LM,... Eurmal ?)

the hides you earn, ?

your parents requirements ? (If I m not wrong, in USA, your parents must be american if you want to be president, in France you have to be french)

Do you have to succeed an heroquest ? etc...

 

I think you don't have to be orlanth rex to lead a clan for example, so answers may be different between the clan level and tribe level

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1 hour ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

the age ?

Being initiated, of course (both to the clan and to at least one lightbringer cult), which means at least 16.

1 hour ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

the cult ? (for example do you need to be Orlanth worshipper to become a tribe king or can you join Orlanth Rex without being initiate of Orlanth ? Must a woman benn initiate of vingan at least or can she be ernalda worshipper ? what about Issaries, LM,... Eurmal ?)

I don't remember of a tribal king or clan head not being at least initiate of Orlanth, but as I skipped al HW/HQ era, I may have missed some. For me, any Lightbringer Rune Lord or Priest would be OK. For Sartar, I would not take Ernalda.

1 hour ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

the hides you earn, ?

As king, you manage everything that is not used by others, so whatever you want.

1 hour ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

your parents requirements ?

I don't think it would matter (but of course, having your father be the king makes you noble, which is an advantage. As I think the council is appointing the king, you already know all the members, are probably already a member yourself, and most probably,m some members owe something to your family.

1 hour ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

Do you have to succeed an heroquest ?

Most probably. At least a ritual one to become member of Orlanth Rex.

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Chieftains:

Sartar, Kingdom of Heroes, pg. 212:

Quote

According to “Andrin's Words,” a chieftain must
meet certain requirements:

“He must be initiated into the clan secrets of Orlanth,
and have participated in the Four Yearly Rites, and the
Lightbringers Quest in Sacred Time. He must be healthy
and spontaneous, just and hospitable. He must have two good
horses, a metal helmet and byrnie, two good swords, and six
spears. He must know the name of his ally, and know men's
magic, and have a magical item of his own. Furthermore,
three clan folk vouch for him, and relate deeds of honor,
judgment, and courage that they have seen. Finally, he must
prove his skills against all other candidates for the office in the
Chief Tests."

This has obviously changed somewhat, but the main characteristics here are:

-You must have been initiated into the clan as an adult man for a whole year, participating in all the major rituals. 
-You must be in good health and embody basic virtuous characteristics.
-You must be wealthy enough to own two horses, metal armor, two swords, and six spears.
-You must demonstrate your knowledge of masculine magic. 
-You must have three clan members vouching for you as character witnesses for your ability to perform the duties of a chieftain.
-You must also prove your skills directly. 

If I were running a chieftain election, I would expand this to Ernalda as well, and amend it as follows: 

-You must have been initiated in the clan as an adult for a whole year, participating in all the major rituals.
-You must be in good health and embody basic virtuous characteristics.
-You must be wealthy enough to own two horses, metal armor, two swords, and six spears. (Not sure if I'd amend this to "wealthy enough to make someone a thane out of generosity if necessary")
-You must demonstrate your knowledge of appropriately gendered magic. 
-You must have three clan members vouching for you as character witnesses for your ability to perform the duties of a chieftain.
-You must also prove your skills directly. 

Obviously, the main restriction here is that you need to be very wealthy to be a potential candidate. The other primary restriction is the Chief Tests, followed by the need to have multiple clan folk as character witnesses. No wonder chiefships can become almost hereditary. 

Tribal Kings:

Sartar, Kingdom of Heroes, pg. 215:

Quote

According to “Andrin's Words,” a tribal king
must meet certain requirements:

“He must be initiated into the secrets of Orlanth, and
have participated in the Four Yearly Rites, and the Lightbringer
Quest in Sacred Time. He must succeed at a Crown Test.”


The “Crown Test” is a re‑enactment of “How
Orlanth Became King.” The expectations of the
tribesmen vary according to the tenor of the times.
In peaceful times, a dramatic re‑enactment and
symbolic combat with the local Elmal representative
is sufficient. In war times, ambitious kings usually
lead a raid against the enemy and let the destiny of
their reign rest on the results.

Once this test was used aggressively. Among the
Colymar the candidate was named Leika Ballista, and
she reached far during desperate times. She undertook
an old‑fashioned journey to destroy Chaos in its own
lair. She succeeded a harrowing invasion of a mad
poet's test, and was acclaimed Queen by her joyous
people, without any preliminary legal preparation,
despite the other rivals.

The requirements here are:
-Initiated into the Orlanth cult, participated in all of the yearly rites.
-Succeed at a Crown Test, which is either a This World Heroquest or a secularish proof of one's ability to be a successful warlord. 

I would not change this to incorporate Ernalda Orendana, because women can be members of the Orlanth subcults without reservations in contemporary Glorantha and the tribal council specifically has an Ernalda position on it that could be made the overall leader. This would of course require a bit more work to develop, especially the equivalent of the Crown Test. 

The primary restriction here is that you need to have a popular base of support across multiple clans, whether by doing something gutsy or just putting yourself forward and electioneering. 
 

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Things you don't need to become (or remain) an Orlanthi king:

a perfect body. There are at least two one-eyed Orlanthi kings in the Guide (Jonatela, Aggar), and King Phargentes lacked an arm from his duel with Palashee Longaxe.

Lineage: unless you plan to inherit one of those few Vingkotling-style crowns, like King of Tarsh or Prince of Sartar.

Cult affiliation: Temertain was a Lhankor Mhy sage, not at all an initiate of Orlanth prior to being put onto the throne, other than being an associate. Lunar cults are acceptable.

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A lot of those "rules" (more like customs) will be dependent on the particular clan or tribe.

For exemple, Enhyl Chieftains are "always" Elmal Rune Lords, so in normal circumstances that would be one requirement, but I'm sure it can be changed.

As for Ernalda and women in general, it gets tricky. AFAIK, there are no Ernalda chiefs or queens, and that makes sense because in Heortling society the chief job is linked to Orlanth; Ernalda has another important job, and as in the Ernaldori, Ernaldan high priestesses can be more powerful than the chief, but they cannot take his job. But even though Ernalda and Orlanth hold the basic notions of what is "male" and "female" in heortling society, there have been many female chiefs and queens, and not only Vingans, the Malani Queen is a Humakti, if I'm not mistaken. This raises the question of what is exactly "male" and "female" for the heortlings, is Humakti magic "masculine"? Just because the god is usually portrayed as a male? What about Gorites? They seem to be banned from temporal leadership too; they hold power in Tarsh and before and during its first civil war they tried to make a run to monopolize temporal power, but tarshites are not heortlings, it's traditions of leadership might vary wildy.

At the end it all comes to the personality of the deity I think, Orlanth and Elmal make for superb leaders. Humakt might look good at first, but you have only to watch the warmongering Malani to see it doesn't fit the job. Barntar might be good too for certain times, but in prolonged periods it might be too much peaceful. Gorites are definetly not good leaders, CA and LM are too busy with their things, Issaries maybe? And let's not comment on an Eurmali king.

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Also, I think that having a high position in a temple might disqualify you from being chief or king, something that might be done to stop one person to hold top much power. From Ernaldori history in GMs pack we can see that while all positions of power in the clan are monopolized by the same family, on the death of a chief they seem to prefer to elect a younger and less experienced candidate than an older more experienced man that serves as a Orlanth priest. This may very well not be a hard rule, but it shows that younger, more adventurous (pun intended) men or women are usually preferred. 

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1 hour ago, Jape_Vicho said:

This raises the question of what is exactly "male" and "female" for the heortlings, is Humakti magic "masculine"? Just because the god is usually portrayed as a male? What about Gorites? They seem to be banned from temporal leadership too; they hold power in Tarsh and before and during its first civil war they tried to make a run to monopolize temporal power, but tarshites are not heortlings, it's traditions of leadership might vary wildy.

As mentioned in RQ:G page 81, the Heortlings also recognise the sex of "neuter" and the gender of "none." It wouldn't surprise me if Humakt's magic is often viewed as "Neuter/None," despite their common masculine portrayals.

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15 minutes ago, Tindalos said:

As mentioned in RQ:G page 81, the Heortlings also recognise the sex of "neuter" and the gender of "none." It wouldn't surprise me if Humakt's magic is often viewed as "Neuter/None," despite their common masculine portrayals.

That would make much sense indeed, it's just that the "third gender" is rarely mentioned outside of those lines. 

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6 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

Hello loremasters

I m not talking about social relationship /influence/intrigue/bribes etc... but more the 'formal and official rules'

Is there any requirement about

the age ?

THE TRIBAL KING

Among the Sartarites, the king of a tribe is the Orlanth Rex of that tribe and functions as the high priest of the tribal Orlanth cult. There is no sex or gender requirement for becoming king, but even if the tribe is matrilineal and the ruler is a woman, the position is still called King (or  more precisely Rex) and is referred to in the masculine (for example, the Orlanthi would refer to Kallyr as King of the Kheldon and Leika as King of the Colymar). A candidate for tribal king must be initiated into the secrets of an aspect of Orlanth, and into the secrets of another aspect of Orlanth or another deity. 

To be acclaimed king, he must succeed at a “crown test.” This is a re‑enactment of “How Orlanth Became King.” The expectations of the tribesmen vary according to the tenor of the times. In peaceful times, a dramatic re‑enactment and symbolic combat with the local Yelmalio representative or a quest into dark earth rituals to return with spells of fertility or magical seeds is sufficient. In war times, ambitious kings usually lead a raid against the enemy and let the destiny of their reign rest on the results. 

Once this test was used aggressively. Among the Colymar the candidate was named Leika Ballista, and she reached far during desperate times. She undertook an old‑fashioned journey to destroy Chaos in its own lair. She succeeded a harrowing invasion of a mad poet’s test, and was acclaimed King by her joyous people, without any preliminary legal preparation, despite the other rivals.

THE CLAN CHIEFTAIN

According to traditional legal codes, a chieftain must meet certain requirements. These requirements vary slightly from clan to clan but are typically along the following lines: 

“He must be initiated into the clan secrets of Orlanth, and have participated in the Four Yearly Rites, and the Lightbringers’ Quest in Sacred Time. He must be healthy and spontaneous, just and hospitable. He must have two good horses, a metal helmet and armor, two good swords, and six spears. He must know the name of his ally, and know men’s magic, and have a magical item of his own. Furthermore, three clan folk vouch for him, and relate deeds of honor, judgment, and courage which they have seen. Finally, he must prove his skills against all other candidates for the office in the Chief Tests.”

As long as someone meets those requirements he (or less often, she) may vie for the position when it is available. It may be available when the chieftain retires, dies, is killed, or is removed by either the council or the assembly.

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thanks all

11 minutes ago, Jeff said:

A candidate for tribal king must be initiated into the secrets of an aspect of Orlanth, and into the secrets of another aspect of Orlanth or another deity. 

to be certain to have understood, from a rqg rules perspective, does that mean the candidate has two choices : he /she must be at least :

- initiate to Orlanth Rex and initiate  to another Orlanth subcult  (adventurous, thunder, vinga)

- initiate to Orlanth Rex and initiate to another (respectable) god (Ernalda, LM, Issaries, ...)

Am I right ?

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10 minutes ago, Scorus said:

Leika is referred to as Queen throughout the GA book.

Yes, because in English it is really tough to refer to a female king - it really doesn't linguistically work. However, the Orlanthi would use the word "king" for female Orlanth Rex rulers and not "queen". 

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On 12/17/2020 at 4:35 PM, Tindalos said:

As mentioned in RQ:G page 81, the Heortlings also recognise the sex of "neuter" and the gender of "none." It wouldn't surprise me if Humakt's magic is often viewed as "Neuter/None," despite their common masculine portrayals.

Humaktis are often portrayed as very cold and calculating, which is very womanly behavior in  the orlanthi view

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23 hours ago, Jeff said:

Yes, because in English it is really tough to refer to a female king - it really doesn't linguistically work. However, the Orlanthi would use the word "king" for female Orlanth Rex rulers and not "queen". 

How does name “the Battle of the Queens” work under this pattern, as supposedly the point of the name in-world was that it involved queens (or female kings)? Is there some feminine grammatical version of “Rex” (or other grammatical explanation) in the Sartarite language that explains the name? Or alternatively, would the Sartarite name for it not truly map to a loose English-language translation, and the actual name for it in Sartarite was something different?

Edited by Akhôrahil
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11 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

How does name “the Battle of the Queens” work under this pattern, as supposedly the point of the name in-world was that it involved queens (or female kings)? Is there some feminine grammatical version of “Rex” (or other grammatical explanation) in the Sartarite language that explains the name? Or alternatively, would the Sartarite name for it not truly map to a loose English-language translation, and the actual name for it in Sartarite was something different?

I suspect it literally would be something like "The Battle of the (female) Kings", all compressed into a single world, as the battle was unusual in that so many (Kallyr, Leika, Amalda, Ivarra) female tribal rulers led the fight. Later generations might even have a little cult of the Four (female) Kings.

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I believe that there is also an Ernalda Rex, which is the norm in Esrolia, exactly as Orlanth Rex is the norm in Sartar. I think that there are a very few clans in Sartar that will usually have an Ernalda Rex rather than Orlanth Rex.

Almost always, a new clan chief will initiate to Orlanth (Ernalda) Rex and a new tribal king always (even if already an initiate of another god). That way they become the Chief Priest of all priests in the clan or tribe. In many clans, there will only be one other priest of Ernalda (Orlanth), and that often will be the wife (husband) of the chief. Many or most rural clans cannot afford the expense of two different households of priests. Rich clans and or the clan of the tribal king can support more priests.

Of course, that’s my understanding of ‘literary’ Glorantha.  For your game, you should choose what suits you and your players.

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41 minutes ago, Charles said:

I believe that there is also an Ernalda Rex, which is the norm in Esrolia, exactly as Orlanth Rex is the norm in Sartar. I think that there are a very few clans in Sartar that will usually have an Ernalda Rex rather than Orlanth Rex.

Almost always, a new clan chief will initiate to Orlanth (Ernalda) Rex and a new tribal king always (even if already an initiate of another god). That way they become the Chief Priest of all priests in the clan or tribe. In many clans, there will only be one other priest of Ernalda (Orlanth), and that often will be the wife (husband) of the chief. Many or most rural clans cannot afford the expense of two different households of priests. Rich clans and or the clan of the tribal king can support more priests.

Of course, that’s my understanding of ‘literary’ Glorantha.  For your game, you should choose what suits you and your players.

There is not an Ernalda Rex cult.

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2 hours ago, Charles said:

My bad choice of words. Orlanth Rex has very specific powers that were quested for within time by Alakoring.

However, I hope that there is still an Ernalda the Queen cult...

It is called "Ernalda". In Esrolia the queens hold their office by virtue of being high priestesses of the main cult. 

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Orlanth Rex kings become the high priests of Orlanth, with the magic to command other priests of the tribe, putting them into the same position. Political or military power (backing) is required to access such a position in either case.

I wonder about the next ranks in upper management, though. What are the magical powers of the mayor of a Sartarite city confederation? There are three such offices in Old Sartar, and we know the name and character of the mayor of Wilmskirk in 1613. Not exactly Orlanth Rex material, but then like many tribal kings or clan chiefs a compromise candidate under the watchful eye of the Lunar occupators. Tribal kings are supposed to gather behind a confederation mayor (at least, when there is a prince from the Sartar dynasty - not that Kallyr actually managed to gather entire city confederations with their full militias behind her).

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We know that Orlanth Rex is the official King cult in Sartar, but what about other orlanthi societies? 

-Broyan does not practice it because he derives his legitimacy from his vingkotling lineage, this we know, unless I'm terribly wrong. This suscites some questions. Did the Old Hendriki (as in the Kingdom of Hendrikiland of imperial and early modern age) practice Orlanth Rex? Once the kingdom was destroyed by Belintar it was succeeded by the Sixth of Heortland, and a confederation of clans and tribes around Whitewall, either called Volsaxi Conf. or New Hendrikiland. Did the Kings of Heortland under Belintar practice Orlanth Rex? Was the vingkotling kingship ritual of Broyan used by his predecessors or was he the first to use it? What about Heortland in 1625, has anybody called him/herself King after Broyan's death? 

-In Peloria the "free" orlanthi prob. practice it, but the lunarised ones don't despite that they emulate like they do, for exemple they make rituals and sacrifices to the lightbringers (forgetting Orlanth) and marry powerful Earth figures (at least the Tarshites do). 

-The Entruli (manirian orlanthi) either erect westerners as kings (in the Trader Princes controlled areas, that means the coast/Wenelia) or they have native kings (in the northern tribes like Nimistor, Solanthi...). Do those last orlanthi practice Orlanth Rex? 

-The Galanini (ralian orlanthi) don't practice Orlanth Rex according to what I have read here before but I'm not sure, also can't make it up from the Guide. 

-In Fronela the jrustelans definitively don't practice Orlanth Rex, they are too influenced by western culture, especially the ruling classes. I don't know how they justify their kingships but it's not with Orlanth Rex. The oranori may do it, IDK.

-Edit: I always forget that caladralanders are thechnically orlanthi, or at the very least theyalan, but if I'm not mistaken their kingship is pretty different from the rest; they are elected for a certain time and their legitimacy comes from the temple of the Vent.

Edited by Jape_Vicho
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5 minutes ago, Jape_Vicho said:

Did the Old Hendriki (as in the Kingdom of Hendrikiland of imperial and early modern age) practice Orlanth Rex?

No.  It was based on wielding a certain set of regalia.

7 minutes ago, Jape_Vicho said:

Did the Kings of Heortland under Belintar practice Orlanth Rex?

No, there were Governors of Heortland under Belintar, no kings.

8 minutes ago, Jape_Vicho said:

Was the vingkotling kingship ritual of Broyan used by his predecessors or was he the first to use it?

It was the Vingkotling ritual - you must prove your lineage to Vingkot and wield the Helm and Sword.  He was not the first, but it had certainly been awhile since anyone used it.  

9 minutes ago, Jape_Vicho said:

What about Heortland in 1625, has anybody called him/herself King after Broyan's death? 

Not yet, though there are those who would like to.

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10 minutes ago, Jape_Vicho said:

-In Peloria the "free" orlanthi prob. practice it, but the lunarised ones don't despite that they emulate like they do, for exemple they make rituals and sacrifices to the lightbringers (forgetting Orlanth) and marry powerful Earth figures (at least the Tarshites do).

Remember that the Orlanth Rex rites come from Alakoring, and he arrived from Ralios in southern Peloria and the rites spread from there.  So it was the standard practice in the Provincial kingdoms.

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